Possible ulcers - not insured

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DD265

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You know when you just have a niggle? We're wondering whether my boy has some discomfort in his gut and of course it could potentially be ulcers. Horse is on a veteran policy and therefore insurance would not cover this.

I know that the diagnosis involves scoping (what does this actually entail in practise? Any idea on cost?), that treatment is usually Gastroguard which is effective but extremely expensive at roughly £150 a week if you're lucky.

Symptoms? Well he's not working, but going back to 2007 he was reluctant to go forward. Diagnosis: arthritis changes in hocks and front coffin joints, medicated, didn't help and never really got "better" to be honest. 2010 diagnosed with Wobblers (arthritic changes in spine). 2013 back on board but again never really got going. Ulcers never mentioned at any point. Most recently he had a fall between Christmas and New Year on ice and was box rested for approx 6 weeks. Outwardly coped OK but he does tend to "bottle up" quite a bit emotions wise. Lacks confidence in situations where previously he would've been OK (e.g. leading in hand, passed by trailer). Has always licked a lot, especially after a treat. Appetite.. not necessarily reduced in so much as he does eat his feeds but he picks at his haylage rather than shovelling it in. Have struggled a little with weight the last two winters (he's 23 in March) and he put on before Christmas then dropped off again - fits with going back in field = less food. Gets jealous where I am concerned; attacks his neighbours but only when I am around. Poo normal, coat is good, he's a bit quieter than he used to be personality wise. Very rarely colics (as in, years apart) and I don't think he spends a lot of time lying down. He's fed Simple System Metaslim, Lucie Nuts (this winter), molasses free sugarbeet, Cortavet and turmeric/pepper.

Would you go down this route?
 
He could have ulcers but with the arthritic changes he has which involve rather a lot of his joints, I would suspect it is that giving him constant low grade discomfort, especially in the winter when it is colder and there is less grass about so he has to work harder to find it, even having adlib haylage they sometimes prefer to pick at grass.

Is he out 24/7? could he come in each day for a break, he may prefer to rest indoors if he is finding getting down difficult or getting hassled by the others, I think they can start to feel vulnerable when they are older and a bit stiff and less inclined to really switch off and relax.

As for the ulcers, it is expensive to treat so makes sense to scope so you know what you are dealing with, if nothing shows you will not be spending the best part of £1k to treat, as you are not insured you can treat if they are found but not rescope at the end if all seems well, it cost about £400 to have one scoped at home with our vet plus the vet with the scope so it should be less if you use a vet that has the equipment or take him in to be done.

I think if he was mine I would do a short bute trial, it will not help if he has ulcers and can make them worse but do no real harm in the short term if he has them, if he is in pain from elsewhere it may help make him more comfortable.

The only other thing is he had a fall and was box rested, if he suffered some muscular injuries has he been looked at by a physio, many muscular injuries do require more than rest to resolve and again this would be cheaper and easier than scoping or treating ulcers.
 
Thanks for the swift reply.

He is stabled at night, on individual turnout at the moment (next to other horses) because his field buddy is lame. We actually turn out mid morning rather than first thing so he gets extra time to munch haylage. He also seems to tire more easily since his fall, on the leg that he fell onto (it was his hip).

Would pain relief not also mask the ulcers?

He is being treated for muscular issues following his fall - in fact that's who has suggested about the ulcers. I use a bowen therapist (who also does EMRT, has a scenar, bioresonance etc) rather than a physio (seen a few local ones at work and have been unimpressed) and she does work wonders for him. I don't think he'd still be here if it wasn't for her, but appreciate that ulcers are the sort of thing that require veterinary intervention.

I might give the practise a call tomorrow and ask what facilities they have to scope.
 
Bute will not mask ulcers, they can be implicated towards causing them so they could make him worse, I was advised by an ulcer expert to do a bute trial with my horse before scoping as there were a few possibilities that were causing his problems, he said to do a short trial and if he got worse or showed no improvement then to scope, he was better while on bute and was eventually diagnosed with SI pain, which had been missed by the vet that was already involved.

If he is still receiving treatment following the fall I suspect he has really been knocked for 6 and everything is still a bit uncomfortable, he does have a fair but to contend with, I know he is on turmeric but it may not be enough, the other thing to consider is giving him a good probiotic which can help them, I used Protexin after mine had a bad injury and was not doing as well as I wanted, it seemed to help, he was also very licky, lacked confidence and was just not himself, he even had a day of crib biting while on box rest, hence thinking about ulcers, luckily the cribbing stopped.
 
There is a fairly straightforward palpation process you can try with your boy which can be a really good indicator of whether or not he has ulcers. There are lots of videos you can watch...try www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iusu1f2_HQ.

If you get any of the reactions you can be fairly sure that there are some digestive tract issues. It might be worth you taking a look at a product called HorseSource Seabuckthorn www.horsesourceseabuckthorn.co.uk (or find it on nupafeed.co.uk). This is a 100% natural supplement that can be fed every day without the need to change his feeding routine in any way. I've seen fantastic results thanks to this and both of mine get 30ml per day every day in their feed which maintains their digestive systems as well as having lots of other benefits too.

Good luck with him.
 
Look at his feed, I've had issues, the pure lucerne may not help?? Just a thought. Also Global Herbs Restore is a fab detox if he is a bit run down, for some odd reason it has really helped my boy who like yours had one thing after another go wrong and I think he too was knocked for 6. The vet is asking me to do another course of Restore to see if we get the same response the 2nd time, don't know why it works but it's cheap and lots of people like it!
 
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My mare tested positive for stomach and hind gut ulcers in November. She had the succeed poo test which costs around £25. After a 90 day course of the succeed digestive supplement which costs around £70 per tub/ month if you get it online, she has just tested negative and is a transformed pony! If she gets them again next winter, I will treat again with succeed as ulcers will be excluded from her insurance now. However, I am fairly confident that I have worked out a feeding regime which will hopefully prevent them reoccurring.
 
Hi op, I was in the same boat last year. My horse was uninsured as if been given him as a semi retired arthritic light hack on the condition he'd be pts at the slightest issue!
Ulcers was were always a concern of mine over this horse even with his previous owner.
I bought the gastroguard equivilant from the U.S. where it's a lot cheaper and not prescription.
A course cost me £140 which compared to Gastroguard is just a fraction of the cost. It's also cheaper than scoping which was a problem for me as I was uncomfortable about stabling this horse overnight with no forage as this would really stress him. Also I have no electric at my yard so it would have had to have been done elsewhere adding to the stress for him.
I tried it on the assumption as it is real omeprazole (sp!) if he had ulcers it would help and if not I could be happy he hasn't got them.
 
be positive said:
Bute will not mask ulcers, they can be implicated towards causing them so they could make him worse, I was advised by an ulcer expert to do a bute trial with my horse before scoping as there were a few possibilities that were causing his problems, he said to do a short trial and if he got worse or showed no improvement then to scope, he was better while on bute and was eventually diagnosed with SI pain, which had been missed by the vet that was already involved.

If he is still receiving treatment following the fall I suspect he has really been knocked for 6 and everything is still a bit uncomfortable, he does have a fair but to contend with, I know he is on turmeric but it may not be enough, the other thing to consider is giving him a good probiotic which can help them, I used Protexin after mine had a bad injury and was not doing as well as I wanted, it seemed to help, he was also very licky, lacked confidence and was just not himself, he even had a day of crib biting while on box rest, hence thinking about ulcers, luckily the cribbing stopped.
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This... be careful with bute- its what pushed me to get my boy scoped when his symptoms got worse having been on it for a few days. On the plus side, its sort of useful as a "test" I guess!

Did he have constant access to forage during the 6 weeks box rest or is he a fatty? May have exacerbated his gut if he went from being turned out and grazing to hay which runs out for hours at a time.

In all honesty for an older horse I would look to manage it rather than treat them. Aka treat him as an ulcer horse, constant forage, low sugar/starch diet (and be careful here- it's incredible how spillers horse and pony nuts have 17% starch in them, combined sugar starch level of 10% or less is ideal), hay instead of haylage and a really good gut balancer. Something like ritetrac, feedmark gastric comfort, protexin or colligone.

Whilst this won't cure them (gastroguard- omeprazole- is pretty much the only thing that will and that's only if they are gastric not hind gut!) it will help with the discomfort.
 
Havannah said:
There is a fairly straightforward palpation process you can try with your boy which can be a really good indicator of whether or not he has ulcers. There are lots of videos you can watch...try www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iusu1f2_HQ.

If you get any of the reactions you can be fairly sure that there are some digestive tract issues. It might be worth you taking a look at a product called HorseSource Seabuckthorn www.horsesourceseabuckthorn.co.uk (or find it on nupafeed.co.uk). This is a 100% natural supplement that can be fed every day without the need to change his feeding routine in any way. I've seen fantastic results thanks to this and both of mine get 30ml per day every day in their feed which maintains their digestive systems as well as having lots of other benefits too.

Good luck with him.
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Equally my friends horse palpated negatively to any signs of ulcers and was scoped and found to have grade 4 :(
 
BethH said:
Look at his feed, I've had issues, the pure lucerne may not help?? Just a thought. Also Global Herbs Restore is a fab detox if he is a bit run down, for some odd reason it has really helped my boy who like yours had one thing after another go wrong and I think he too was knocked for 6. The vet is asking me to do another course of Restore to see if we get the same response the 2nd time, don't know why it works but it's cheap and lots of people like it!
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Hi Beth - I use Restore 1-2 times per year when I think he needs it. I've been holding off (if we do too much at once, how do we know what helps? etc) but it is in my mind. I may get some tomorrow when I go for his carrots! He has been on Lucienuts since... well before Christmas. Prior to that he didn't have any pure lucerne in his diet since 2008. It's definitely a thought but my gut feel (no pun intended) is that it's emotional stress rather than dietary.

WindyStacks said:
http://www.equinepharmacognosy.co.uk/files/case_study-gastric_ulcers.pdf
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That is an interesting approach, thank you. We have ordered Slippery Elm for him to try, I have forwarded this to his therapist to see what she says.

Ali27 said:
My mare tested positive for stomach and hind gut ulcers in November. She had the succeed poo test which costs around £25. After a 90 day course of the succeed digestive supplement which costs around £70 per tub/ month if you get it online, she has just tested negative and is a transformed pony! If she gets them again next winter, I will treat again with succeed as ulcers will be excluded from her insurance now. However, I am fairly confident that I have worked out a feeding regime which will hopefully prevent them reoccurring.
Click to expand...

I saw Succeed but wasn't sure how it compared to the others on the market; that's good to know. I've read up about the test and may ask the vet about it.

poiuytrewq said:
Hi op, I was in the same boat last year. My horse was uninsured as if been given him as a semi retired arthritic light hack on the condition he'd be pts at the slightest issue!
Ulcers was were always a concern of mine over this horse even with his previous owner.
I bought the gastroguard equivilant from the U.S. where it's a lot cheaper and not prescription.
A course cost me £140 which compared to Gastroguard is just a fraction of the cost. It's also cheaper than scoping which was a problem for me as I was uncomfortable about stabling this horse overnight with no forage as this would really stress him. Also I have no electric at my yard so it would have had to have been done elsewhere adding to the stress for him.
I tried it on the assumption as it is real omeprazole (sp!) if he had ulcers it would help and if not I could be happy he hasn't got them.
Click to expand...

I looked at Ulcerguard - wasn't sure you'd be able to import it but that is useful. I saw that we couldn't get it here which is frustrating given it's just same product, different packaging!

Michen said:
This... be careful with bute- its what pushed me to get my boy scoped when his symptoms got worse having been on it for a few days. On the plus side, its sort of useful as a "test" I guess!

Did he have constant access to forage during the 6 weeks box rest or is he a fatty? May have exacerbated his gut if he went from being turned out and grazing to hay which runs out for hours at a time.

In all honesty for an older horse I would look to manage it rather than treat them. Aka treat him as an ulcer horse, constant forage, low sugar/starch diet (and be careful here- it's incredible how spillers horse and pony nuts have 17% starch in them, combined sugar starch level of 10% or less is ideal), hay instead of haylage and a really good gut balancer. Something like ritetrac, feedmark gastric comfort, protexin or colligone.

Whilst this won't cure them (gastroguard- omeprazole- is pretty much the only thing that will and that's only if they are gastric not hind gut!) it will help with the discomfort.
Click to expand...

He has forage 24/7. Starch and sugar in the LucieNuts is less than 5%, not certain on the brand of beet YO buys to be fair but I will check. Metaslim less than 4% on both. I do feel that it is emotional rather than physical, if that makes sense? I work 1.5-2 hours away and he is very much a one-to-one relationship horse. Unfortunately I think he's suffering from that but we aren't in a position to move nearer to where I work yet. I am pushing myself to spend the time with him in an evening.

Michen said:
Equally my friends horse palpated negatively to any signs of ulcers and was scoped and found to have grade 4 :(
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Got to love horses and the "one size definitely does not fit all" approach! At this point I don't think I want to put him through the scope. He was feeling much better tonight than he has in a while so I'm a bit less concerned but will definitely go down the management route as a minimum.
 
Hi Just to say that the particular feed you mention caused my horse to come out in hives when he was at a low ebb having been to horsepital & been faffed around with by vets etc etc. It can take weeks to show itself, it was a good month after switching to it before the symptoms became obvious enough to realise what was happening. Might be worth just swapping the lucie nuts for some speedibeet or top chop lite to see if it makes a difference. My horse is such a good doer, he really is the most straightforward chap - I've had him 11 years and have never seen him react like that to anything else. I hope you get to the bottom of it, good luck, it's horrid when they are poorly, I think the Restore worked because it got the residual feed out of his system. He improved hugely once I switched back to his old feed & I had been wondering about ulcers & couldn't believe with his lifestyle he would suffer from them!
 
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poiuytrewq said:
Hi op, I was in the same boat last year. My horse was uninsured as if been given him as a semi retired arthritic light hack on the condition he'd be pts at the slightest issue!
Ulcers was were always a concern of mine over this horse even with his previous owner.
I bought the gastroguard equivilant from the U.S. where it's a lot cheaper and not prescription.
A course cost me £140 which compared to Gastroguard is just a fraction of the cost. It's also cheaper than scoping which was a problem for me as I was uncomfortable about stabling this horse overnight with no forage as this would really stress him. Also I have no electric at my yard so it would have had to have been done elsewhere adding to the stress for him.
I tried it on the assumption as it is real omeprazole (sp!) if he had ulcers it would help and if not I could be happy he hasn't got them.
Click to expand...

Please dont suggest the OP breaks the law !

Omeprazole is Prescription only in the United States as well as here and is illegal to import .

The product you bought is manufactured and sold from india not the states. The website is put together so you believe they are coming from the states. Look at the small print on the website
To save the trouble I have copied it for you

Customs: Abler dispatches your order from either

Vanuatu, South Pacific (near Australia)
Seychelles, Indian Ocean (near South Africa)
India
When your package passes through Customs there might be a delay of up to 72 hours before the package is released into the local postal system. We suggest that you always allow extra time and order ahead so you are not inconvenienced.
 
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.I have just had my daughters pony scoped for ulcers... Pony is not insured..I was concerned a) for the safety of my daughter and b)the welfare of the pony ( which we have had for 6 months)....I came to the conclusion this pony was in pain and she was trying her best to tell me. The vet came and examined her and could find nothing external so I felt quite relieved when he suggested scoping for ulcers. He gave me a price and I shopped around and found another vet practice that came and scoped for £203 including sedation. Pony was graded 3/4 wide spread ulcers and was definitely uncomfortable. Treatment I am using Ulcer Guard which started on Saturday..200ml for one month then 100ml for second month. The two month treatment is costing approx. £360. She is on rest this week to give meds time to work and then my daughter can start riding Saturday onwards.. Stable management has also changed and I have put her on shavings for the next two months so a little more expense there plus as she is stabled at night she has hay nets all round her stable so wherever she turns she can graze!!... I am so pleased I followed my gut instinct with this as the pony was starting to get dangerous to ride and all through no fault of her own
 
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I'd do exactly as suggested above and buy so equine omeprazole from abroad ie hole on google usa and you will find so e cost about about a pound aday unless of course yup have a spare wad of cash to buy in uk. The cost here is so high due to pharma patents and versus if they have expired in other countries as once they have expired generic maufa futures can start making the drug cheaper up branded within that country. Ie with headache tablets the boots own brand is cheaper as the drug is off patient and can now be made by the generic houses ie same drug different branding. So to get round this until the patient has expired in the uk parallel imports are often done... Got this off the net for you to explain : In laymen’s terms, parallel imports – or grey-market imports – are products that are produced in one market under the protection of national patent protection laws and then exported to another market without the authorization of the local copyright holder in question. Typically, having been purchased at a cheaper price in country (A) to that of the prices for the product in country (B), the goods are then sold in the second market at a differential that is usually somewhere between that of both markets. In the case of pharmaceuticals, that means that a drug purchased in Spain can then be sold in Germany at a rate that undercuts the local market – as drugs companies set different price points for their medicines in different countries.
So In a nutshell would I buy from the states if I didn't have the money. am I supposed to no.. Is it the same drug yes. That is of course unless I win the lottery and then yes I could afford the uk branded equine omeprazole.
 
We also used the Succeed test due to not being able to travel for a scope. Vets are cagier about it because they can't be as confident in the result (more an issue with false negatives, where the horse tests clear but does actually have ulcers), although I understand false positives (where the horse tests positive but the blood in the stool is not as a result of ulceration) are more of a concern. However, unlike scoping, it does also give you an indication of possible hind gut issues, so given the cost I think it might be worth a shot :)
Our windsucking horse who tested positive for ulcers had a course of Gastroguard which didn't really improve the windsucking. We changed his diet, and on a very stripped back diet of soaked Copra meal and unmollassed chop, he has now almost completely stopped - doesn't windsuck at mealtimes at all, where before he would suck for about half an hour after any bucket feed or treat.
 
milos said:
I'd do exactly as suggested above and buy so equine omeprazole from abroad ie hole on google usa and you will find so e cost about about a pound aday unless of course yup have a spare wad of cash to buy in uk. The cost here is so high due to pharma patents and versus if they have expired in other countries as once they have expired generic maufa futures can start making the drug cheaper up branded within that country. Ie with headache tablets the boots own brand is cheaper as the drug is off patient and can now be made by the generic houses ie same drug different branding. So to get round this until the patient has expired in the uk parallel imports are often done... Got this off the net for you to explain : In laymen’s terms, parallel imports – or grey-market imports – are products that are produced in one market under the protection of national patent protection laws and then exported to another market without the authorization of the local copyright holder in question. Typically, having been purchased at a cheaper price in country (A) to that of the prices for the product in country (B), the goods are then sold in the second market at a differential that is usually somewhere between that of both markets. In the case of pharmaceuticals, that means that a drug purchased in Spain can then be sold in Germany at a rate that undercuts the local market – as drugs companies set different price points for their medicines in different countries.
So In a nutshell would I buy from the states if I didn't have the money. am I supposed to no.. Is it the same drug yes. That is of course unless I win the lottery and then yes I could afford the uk branded equine omeprazole.
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YOU CANNOT BUY OMEPRAZOLE FROM THE USA!!!!! Its prescription only there!
The main reason Gastroguard and Peptizole is so expensive is it has to have a gastric resistant carrier for horses as the stomach acid very quickly neutralises the Omeprazole ,the imported stuff does not have this either .
 
popsdosh said:
Please dont suggest the OP breaks the law !

Omeprazole is Prescription only in the United States as well as here and is illegal to import .

The product you bought is manufactured and sold from india not the states. The website is put together so you believe they are coming from the states. Look at the small print on the website
To save the trouble I have copied it for you

Customs: Abler dispatches your order from either

Vanuatu, South Pacific (near Australia)
Seychelles, Indian Ocean (near South Africa)
India
When your package passes through Customs there might be a delay of up to 72 hours before the package is released into the local postal system. We suggest that you always allow extra time and order ahead so you are not inconvenienced.
Click to expand...


Omeprazole 10mg has been been reclassified & is now an OTC medicine in the UK.
 
ChesnutsRoasting said:
Omeprazole 10mg has been been reclassified & is now an OTC medicine in the UK.
Click to expand...

But its no good for horses as it needs the gastrict protection of gastrogard. Plus work out the dose and you will soon find out it will cost a lot more per day than gastrogard as the OTC version is mega expensive compared to the POM versions.
 
popsdosh said:
But its no good for horses as it needs the gastrict protection of gastrogard. Plus work out the dose and you will soon find out it will cost a lot more per day than gastrogard as the OTC version is mega expensive compared to the POM versions.
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I didn't disagree with those points. I was just correcting you on the pharmaceutical classification of Omeprazole 10mg & that it is available buy OTC & you don't need a prescription.
 
ChesnutsRoasting said:
I didn't disagree with those points. I was just correcting you on the pharmaceutical classification of Omeprazole 10mg & that it is available buy OTC & you don't need a prescription.
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Can only be dispensed by pharmacist try telling them its for a horse :-) It is not all 10mg that are OTC either.

So my point is still valid it cannot be legally imported into the uk.
 
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popsdosh said:
Can only be dispensed by pharmacist try telling them its for a horse :-) It is not all 10mg that are OTC either.

So my point is still valid it cannot be legally imported into the uk.
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OTC = over the counter - it refers to medicines that can be purchased at a Pharmacy without prescription. I'm sure if someone wanted to purchase it they wouldn't volunteer that it was for a horse. Some brands of Omeprazole 10mg may still be POMs but the fact is you don't need a prescription for certain other brands.
 
ChesnutsRoasting said:
OTC = over the counter - it refers to medicines that can be purchased at a Pharmacy without prescription. I'm sure if someone wanted to purchase it they wouldn't volunteer that it was for a horse. Some brands of Omeprazole 10mg may still be POMs but the fact is you don't need a prescription for certain other brands.
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I am not going to argue the toss as it is not really relevant to the OPs post ,however you still cannot freely purchase omeprazole in the uk it is only dispensed on the pharmacists say so.As clearly shown in this li8nk

http://www.rpharms.com/support-pdfs/otcomeprazoleguid.pdf


My point was about importing it into the UK which is still illegal or are you saying its not??
 
I believe they do not need the "gastric coating" and that omeprazole in normal form works just as well. That is from a medical source, not Google, however the whys and wherefores of obtaining it I cannot be bothered getting into (again).
 
Nudibranch said:
I believe they do not need the "gastric coating" and that omeprazole in normal form works just as well. That is from a medical source, not Google, however the whys and wherefores of obtaining it I cannot be bothered getting into (again).
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I wonder why then even the human form is in gastric resistant capsules ! The acid in the stomach breaks down omeprazole quickly before it is absorbed. Was your medical source a vet? If it does not need this coating why do they go to the trouble of using it? Perhaps your medical expert can answer that as well?
 
I think a lot of horses would have been PTS if abler.com was not providing cheap omeprazole. I know a horse that had more than £4k spent on gastroguard for persistent ulcers and has to be on it all winter (preventative dose). Owner was no longer insured after the first year, and could not afford to buy gastroguard. She has bought from abler for over 3 years now. The product is identical to gastroguard (the syringes). The granules are coated to protect the omeprazole. It works absolutely fine.
 
Wagtail said:
I think a lot of horses would have been PTS if abler.com was not providing cheap omeprazole. I know a horse that had more than £4k spent on gastroguard for persistent ulcers and has to be on it all winter (preventative dose). Owner was no longer insured after the first year, and could not afford to buy gastroguard. She has bought from abler for over 3 years now. The product is identical to gastroguard (the syringes). The granules are coated to protect the omeprazole. It works absolutely fine.
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Still using an unlicensed drug illegally imported ! thats my point not whether it works or not .

Personally I would questiopn that use for that length of time. Surely the fact it has persistent ulcers should suggest it is not working.
 
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popsdosh said:
Still using an unlicensed drug illegally imported ! thats my point not whether it works or not .

Personally I would questiopn that use for that length of time. Surely the fact it has persistent ulcers should suggest it is not working.
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When she was a youngster she was starved. This is what did the initial damage. Now unless she is out 24/7 she gets ulcers. She has been scoped before and afterwards. The ulcers are gone within 6 weeks use, but she is kept on a small dose throughout winter as a preventative.

Many humans are on omeprazole long term.
 
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