Possible Wobbler - Potential Outcomes and What to Expect from LEH?

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PercyMum

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Poorly mare has gone downhill again. Vet came out and has referred to Liphook. She goes in on Tuesday. Over the phone the consultant vet is 99% sure she is a Wobbler, although admits as a 5yo mare (TB) it is unusual.

I have done a bit of reading and it seems very varied as to what treatment is available and how successful it is. In all honesty (dependent on the severity), can she be fixed? Will she have an active working life? ATM she is going mad as she cannot be worked so I do not feel retirement is an option for her.

Finally, what tests/procedures is she likely to go through when she gets there?

Thanks in advance. Healing vibes for my poor girl would be much appreciated :-(

Posted in Veterinary too but no answers so far :(
 
Hi, my 15yo TB was diagnosed with wobblers in 2008 after a fall in a field. My vet said that there wasnt any treatemnt available to her and to retire her due to it being unsafe for us both to continue ridden work. However he did mention that in some cases, if its caught at an early enough age, that there is sometimes treatement which can be done.

So we retired her, but she didnt cope with it very well going from being worked 5-6 days a week and competed to being left in the field.

When she went p to our vets for her diagnosis, she had an intensive work up exam-lunged, trotted up, flexion test, blood taken and x ray. the xray showed up the physical signs ofthe wobblers, and her performance in the exam backed this up.

I hope it goes ok, and i'll hope for your sake that it isnt wobblers x
 
Blood test for EHV to rule out a viral cause.

Xrays to show the neck vertebrae and move on to the back if nothing seen on the neck.

My horse was diagnosed by xray in May and has been put to sleep. I am sorry not to give you a better story, but I wish I had known right from the start how hopeless his case was.

If your mare has problems in the vertebrae, they cannot be fixed. I understand that mild cases can be controlled with steroid injections into the vertebra, but mine was too far gone. It is also degenerative and likely to get worse even if it can be controlled for now.

This was him 9 months before the diagnosis - watch the first steps he takes after the halt. At the time we thought that stumble was due to his spavins, but after being completely fine for the next 9 months, during which time he learnt medium trot and tempi changes, he went ataxic in a big way (like the video but all the time) one day in the middle of a schooling session and he never recovered.

I hope your mare has something else, but do be prepared for the possibility that she will not be coming home if they find that she was born with a neck deformity, like mine was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0_X1jlWgSQ&feature=youtu.be
 
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cptrayes said:
Blood test for EHV to rule out a viral cause.

Xrays to show the neck vertebrae and move on to the back if nothing seen on the neck.

My horse was diagnosed by xray in May and has been put to sleep. I am sorry not to give you a better story, but I wish I had known right from the start how hopeless his case was.

If your mare has problems in the vertebrae, they cannot be fixed. I understand that mild cases can be controlled with steroid injections into the vertebra, but mine was too far gone. It is also degenerative and likely to get worse even if it can be controlled for now.

This was him 9 months before the diagnosis - watch the first steps he takes after the halt. At the time we thought that stumble was due to his spavins, but after being completely fine for the next 9 months, during which time he learnt medium trot and tempi changes, he went ataxic in a big way (like the video but all the time) one day in the middle of a schooling session and he never recovered.

I hope your mare has something else, but do be prepared for the possibility that she will not be coming home if they find that she was born with a neck deformity, like mine was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0_X1jlWgSQ&feature=youtu.be
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so sad to see and hear about this :( mine was diagnosed with ataxia this time last year, we noticed dragging his toes and swinging his legs like in the video, i was told it was unsafe to ride like this and after 6 months got noticablly worse, it was way too dangerous to be around him as he could fall at any moment and i was brutally told that horses with wobblers/ataxi, the most common injury is them shattering their pelvis, as they fall, which would be alot more painful. mine swung his legs so bad that he bashed each leg with the other every step he took. i was told itcould be caused by anything from a tumor on the spine to a deformaty when he was born, i was told it wasnt even worth the money trying to find out what was causing it. there was no treatment for mine, and the vet said if he did have treatment he could never be ridden or worked again. he was a tb x and was 12 when he was diagnosed and 13 when pts, but didnt show any signs of neurological problems till about 11 years of age.(dragging toes) it wasnt worth the pain in my case. i wouldnt want to put my boy through that. by january this year he was slipping al over the place as he had no balance. unfortunatley in my case i had to make a v hard decision and had harvey pts on the 19th of march this year :'( they will only get worse as has already been said it is degenerative. i wouldnt have your hopes up (not to sound horrible) you need to prepare for the worst. harvey was my first horse and i am only 18, had him since i was 15 and my family arent horsey so had to make all the arrangements myself, it was horrible. i really hope it isnt wobblers. theres nothing that can be done in the long term im afraid

i have my fingers crosssed for you and im sure my boy up in heaven has his hooves crossed for you aswell :) good luck
 
Dont worry too much yet- wait and see what happens! My TB was diagnosed with wobblers as a 6year old. Hes now 14 and I still ride him 5 times a week, little hacks out and will soon be off to do some dressage. So many people write them off as soon as they hear wobblers but its not all bad. OK i brought him to do a bit of everything and he obviously cant jump but hasnt stopped him all together! I make sure he has a physio/massage regularly, he plods around the school for a good 10/15 mins as he warms up and loosens up, he has vit e in his feeds and as much turnout as possible :)

There is another thread on here (somewhere!) about wobblers too but it you want to know more or anything feel free to pm me :) Good luck x
 
I'm so sorry for your situation OP. No good prognosis, and a good equine vet can diagnose without the expense of hospital.
 
jo_currie said:
Dont worry too much yet- wait and see what happens! My TB was diagnosed with wobblers as a 6year old. Hes now 14 and I still ride him 5 times a week, little hacks out and will soon be off to do some dressage. So many people write them off as soon as they hear wobblers but its not all bad. OK i brought him to do a bit of everything and he obviously cant jump but hasnt stopped him all together! I make sure he has a physio/massage regularly, he plods around the school for a good 10/15 mins as he warms up and loosens up, he has vit e in his feeds and as much turnout as possible :)

There is another thread on here (somewhere!) about wobblers too but it you want to know more or anything feel free to pm me :) Good luck x
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:eek::eek::eek:
Sorry but I am amazed that you are able to ride a horse with a positive wobblers diagnosis.
With every wobblers case I have known it has been instant advisary from the vet NOT to ride. Insurance companies will not insure you after a positive wobblers diagnosis.
My lad was diagnosed last year as grade 2 rapid onset and to look at him you would think he was fine. In fact I was happily riding him without ANY indication of a problem.
It was only after a couple of serious self inflicted leg injuries that my vet wanted to check for any neurological issues. The ground tests that they did for example:
Placing one hind leg across in front of the other hind and placing hoof flat to the ground so the horse is cross legged. Most horses will instantly correct themselves to be standing square. My lad didn't move his foot for nearly a minute and then nearly collapsed.
It was painfully clear from the ground tests that he was bad. The xrays of the c-spine confirmed it.
I am sorry that I can't be more positive. God knows myself & CPTrayes know just how shocking this condition can be.

I am not convinced that anyone can safely ride a horse with confirmed neurological problems. The ataxia can be instantaneous and could cause the rider and the horse significant distress should the horse fall.

Good luck OP - I really hope the outcome is positive for you and your horse.
 
Thanks everyone.

Its pretty much confirmed what I thought. I don't want to sound harsh but I feel that if there is something like this wrong with her, then she won't be coming home. She is a total workaholic and she is getting noticeably worse, and she is so bored despite all the toys/attention/food. I have only had her 3 months :(.

With hindsight, when I had her on trial, I thought she was quite clumsy (tripping over her own feet, falling over a fair amount) but I put it down to being 4 and just being off the track. She is also into EVERYTHING so I just assumed she wasnt thinking about what she was doing when she moves around.

Am pretty gutted. I have had 2 horses with serious medical problems, one that was a dangerous nutter and now this. She is so perfect and I thought she could be the one I could actually do pretty well on. It would almost be better if the front end wasnt so perky and bright. Sob. Its so bloody unfair.
 
CPTrayes I just watched your video - she is exactly like this. And I am ashamed to say she was like this when I rode her after halt - I just assumed that as a ex-racer she was finding stepping under from halt was hard as she had no muscle. Poor girl - I hope I didnt cause her any pain :(.

She drags her toes really badly too. When I bought her she didn't brush, now she has to wear boots (brushing, sausage and over-reach) on all legs all the time as she is cutting her legs to bits. Its not gong to end well, is it?
 
Im sure you would be very surprised how many horses out there competing at high levels with wobblers!! My physio treats 2 GP horses with wobblers and many others at different levels! The vets all said riding was fine as long as your careful and dot push it etc and in all this time we have never once had an accident or problem.

So many people are quick to give up these days when really with sensible management and following vet/farrier advice they can still do something. Also, ive had no problems with insurance as on vets recommendation.

Obviously at the end of the day its your own choice on what to do, but if you dont want to dont give up straight away!
 
jo_currie said:
Im sure you would be very surprised how many horses out there competing at high levels with wobblers!! My physio treats 2 GP horses with wobblers and many others at different levels! The vets all said riding was fine as long as your careful and dot push it etc and in all this time we have never once had an accident or problem.

So many people are quick to give up these days when really with sensible management and following vet/farrier advice they can still do something. Also, ive had no problems with insurance as on vets recommendation.

Obviously at the end of the day its your own choice on what to do, but if you dont want to dont give up straight away!
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It's not about farriers and vets and physios! No amount of treatment from them will help a wobbler! It is a degenerative neurological condition where the vertebrae compress against the spinal cord/main nerve that controls (depending where on the spine) the front, back legs or both! I went through and obtained the opinion of some of the top vets regarding this - I do not believe that any vet would happily condone riding a horse that has been diagnosed with wobblers. Neither do I know of anyone competing a horse with wobblers.
I am not quick to give up thank you very much. £10,000 I spent on my lad to get him through his injuries. I explored every avenue and got many expert opinions, not just from my own vet.
Henesy was my whole life and I would have done ANYTHING for him. Having him PTS was the hardest and most heartbreaking decision I ever had to make. It was the RIGHT decision.

There is no happy ending with neurological conditions. Sorry - but that is fact.

(Sorry OP):o Don't mean to go off on one - but this is a subject very close to my heart and one that I know a great deal about.
 
Always Henesy said:
It's not about farriers and vets and physios! No amount of treatment from them will help a wobbler! It is a degenerative neurological condition where the vertebrae compress against the spinal cord/main nerve that controls (depending where on the spine) the front, back legs or both! I went through and obtained the opinion of some of the top vets regarding this - I do not believe that any vet would happily condone riding a horse that has been diagnosed with wobblers. Neither do I know of anyone competing a horse with wobblers.
I am not quick to give up thank you very much. £10,000 I spent on my lad to get him through his injuries. I explored every avenue and got many expert opinions, not just from my own vet.
Henesy was my whole life and I would have done ANYTHING for him. Having him PTS was the hardest and most heartbreaking decision I ever had to make. It was the RIGHT decision.

There is no happy ending with neurological conditions. Sorry - but that is fact.

(Sorry OP):o Don't mean to go off on one - but this is a subject very close to my heart and one that I know a great deal about.
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I'm so sorry for your loss. It is of the utmost importance to me that my mare does not suffer, be it physically or mentally. To this end I want to make sure that any choice I have to make on Tues is the most informed I can have. I don't have £10k to spend so I am guessing that if you put that amount of money at the problem and it didnt fix it, I am not going to be able to either. God, I hope that the 1% chance that the vet is wrong comes off and its something that can be fixed.
 
PercyMum said:
I'm so sorry for your loss. It is of the utmost importance to me that my mare does not suffer, be it physically or mentally. To this end I want to make sure that any choice I have to make on Tues is the most informed I can have. I don't have £10k to spend so I am guessing that if you put that amount of money at the problem and it didnt fix it, I am not going to be able to either. God, I hope that the 1% chance that the vet is wrong comes off and its something that can be fixed.
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Thank you OP - that was kind

The £10,000 was to treat severe leg injuries that were as a result of the wobblers (although we didn't know that he had it then)
There is a further proceedure they do at the big vet hospitals where they inject the spinal cord with red dye under a GA (risky in itself) to see the true picture.
Surgery can be carried out (rarely here) which has roughly a 55% success rate. Sometimes wobblers can be assisted with certain drugs, but again, not much of a success rate.
Physically your mare will not suffer as she will be totally unaware that there is anything wrong with her (IF)
Mentally is a whole different ball game though depending on her personality.
It is far more common in bigger horses and 3 times more likely in geldings than mares. It can be genetically pre-disposed, as a result of trauma/injury to the neck or just one of those things.
You don't know yet - so lets keep everything crossed for you both.
Please do let me know what happens with the tests. I will be here to support you whatever the outcome as I have been through this.
 
Always Henesy said:
Thank you OP - that was kind

The £10,000 was to treat severe leg injuries that were as a result of the wobblers (although we didn't know that he had it then)
There is a further proceedure they do at the big vet hospitals where they inject the spinal cord with red dye under a GA (risky in itself) to see the true picture.
Surgery can be carried out (rarely here) which has roughly a 55% success rate. Sometimes wobblers can be assisted with certain drugs, but again, not much of a success rate.
Physically your mare will not suffer as she will be totally unaware that there is anything wrong with her (IF)
Mentally is a whole different ball game though depending on her personality.
It is far more common in bigger horses and 3 times more likely in geldings than mares. It can be genetically pre-disposed, as a result of trauma/injury to the neck or just one of those things.
You don't know yet - so lets keep everything crossed for you both.
Please do let me know what happens with the tests. I will be here to support you whatever the outcome as I have been through this.
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Thank you so much. I will let you know what they say. I have everything crossed and am spoiling her rotten just in case.
 
I used to work at LEH :D They are brilliant!

Although it was now many years ago, wobblers would get a full neuro investigation, standing neck X-rays and then possibly a myelogram under GA where a dye is injected into the spinal cord to check for compression. Surgical treatment is very expensive and risky.

Personally I wouldn't ride a horse with wobblers although I am sure that some are ridden. Low grade could be paddock sound, high grade can be dangerous to themselves and those around them.

Looking on the bright side, we had one horse referred with a suspected fractured pelvis which turned out to have a foot abscess!

Please let us know how you get on.
 
jo_currie said:
Im sure you would be very surprised how many horses out there competing at high levels with wobblers!! My physio treats 2 GP horses with wobblers and many others at different levels! The vets all said riding was fine as long as your careful and dot push it etc and in all this time we have never once had an accident or problem.

So many people are quick to give up these days when really with sensible management and following vet/farrier advice they can still do something. Also, ive had no problems with insurance as on vets recommendation.

Obviously at the end of the day its your own choice on what to do, but if you dont want to dont give up straight away!
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I think you might need to wait until you try to claim off your insurance for your horse falling and breaking something or someone before you think that you are fully insured to ride her.

Personally, there was no way that I was going to take the risk of ever getting back on mine again even if he got better. One collapse with me under him and I could have been dead.

There is wobblers and wobblers. If they are wobbling like in my video, all the time, there is only, in my opinion, one kind thing to do.
 
A few years ago I bought an ex BSJA mare. She was diagnosed with wobblers only 6 mnths after we bought her, depsite passing a 5 stage vetting. When I tried her I felt she had an 'unusual' action, but as the vet passed her, assumed it was just her, but sadly not to be.

We had her pts as were also warned that she could come down in the field, which would have been horrible for her.

Also just to warn you KBIS wouldn't pay out other than her euthanasia cost as said she wasn't in pain. At the time I was so upset I didn't query it, but with hindsight and a few more years of maturity, I would have definitely questioned this.

I hope you have a more positive experience and thoughts with you and your horse x
 
PercyMum said:
CPTrayes I just watched your video - she is exactly like this. And I am ashamed to say she was like this when I rode her after halt - I just assumed that as a ex-racer she was finding stepping under from halt was hard as she had no muscle. Poor girl - I hope I didnt cause her any pain :(.

She drags her toes really badly too. When I bought her she didn't brush, now she has to wear boots (brushing, sausage and over-reach) on all legs all the time as she is cutting her legs to bits. Its not gong to end well, is it?
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Apart from the video, which shocked me to the core when I found it a couple of days ago, the only sign that Jazz had any problems at all was that he began to drag his toes, one quite badly, six weeks before he suddenly lost control completely. Up until the Saturday that he went wrong, he was doing flying changes, half pass, medium trot and working towards piaffe. He'd been working 20 minutes and turned a small circle, and bang, that was it, he could never control his hind legs properly again.


Please try hard not to blame yourself. I know what it's like and I cried when I saw that video and realised that he had the problem nine months before and had somehow learned how to cope with it. 20:20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

No, I don't think it's going to end well for your poor mare. I will be thinking of you Tuesday and know that you will do the right thing for her.
 
Such a sad thread. I hope that either way, your horse doesn't suffer, and you find the strength to cope. Take care. Xx
 
jo_currie is correct. When my TB mare was diagnosed at 4yrs old my vets (royal vet college) told me that there are a lot of dressage horses out there competing with wobblers (having wobblers give them a more showy action!). It will mean that they are not insured as the vets do have to deam the horse not safe for riding.

I stopped riding my mare the day she was diagnosed. She has since had a lovely foal who is now 7yrs old. My mare is now 13yr old and happily lives out in a herd.

Not all cases are degenerative.

There is an operation available but your vet would have to advise if your horse is a good case for this.

Good luck and feel free to pm me if you have any questions!
 
My horse became suddenly ataxic. She went to Liphook and after some mobility tests they x-rayed her neck, they also did a spinal tap to check for infection. They told me there was nothing they could do for her. She had gone from being safely ridden to stumbling badly in 3 days. They wanted to do a myelogram but I did not see the point when they already knew it was a hopeless case. She was put down at Liphook the following day. The PM showed there was cyst on the 6th cervical vert and a narrowing in the vertebrae that was pinching the spinal cord. She was a full TB age 16. She looked magnificent until the last day. She broke my heart.
 
Sults said:
jo_currie is correct. When my TB mare was diagnosed at 4yrs old my vets (royal vet college) told me that there are a lot of dressage horses out there competing with wobblers (having wobblers give them a more showy action!). It will mean that they are not insured as the vets do have to deam the horse not safe for riding.

I stopped riding my mare the day she was diagnosed. She has since had a lovely foal who is now 7yrs old. My mare is now 13yr old and happily lives out in a herd.

Not all cases are degenerative.

There is an operation available but your vet would have to advise if your horse is a good case for this.

Good luck and feel free to pm me if you have any questions!
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My vet told me that there is no operation available in the UK. He said that the only vet who used to do it has retired and no-one else believes in it. I understand that it involves removing the troublesome vertebra and replacing it with a "cage" of metal and that while it can work in dogs, for a while, it's got a poor prognosis in horses and no other vet in this country will do it.

Sults there is wobblers and wobblers. (and I have to say that since your mare is not ridden you have no real idea how much she has degenerated or how much she would have degenerated had she been being asked to work). My horse competed very successfully with it until he was ten years old. But if the OP's horse is routinely damaging itself because it can't feel where its legs are, surely no-one in their right minds would think it fair to keep it alive?
 
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cptrayes - My mare was graded on a scale of 0 - 4. They scored her 2 infront and 2.5 behind. She had the inhand work up, xrays, measurements taken and a mylogram. She then had the inhand work up, x-rays & measurements taken 6 months later and again nearly 6 months after that. This was nearly 9 years ago. I spend a lot of time with my mare everyday - I know how well she is doing. And no, i do not ride her. But that is not how you judge how a wobbler is doing. The inhand tests are a good guide...

The operation is called the bagby basket operation. The vet that first started doing this op in this country was John Walmsley who worked at Liphook. He is now retired. However this is now, so i was told when i last spoke to my vet about wobblers, unfortunately a fairly common operation. Performed weekly at the RVC. Mainly due to foals being overfed and therefore not developing correctly.

Trust me, i did a hell of a lot of research on this when my mare was diagnosed 9 years ago, speaking to many vets all over england and America! I also rang and spoke to a fairly well know showjumper that continued to SJ their wobbler and then when it was retired from SJing it went on to start a dressage career!
Wobblers is something that i will always be interested in and will follow/research any developments in.

OP - Please phone or email or ask your vet to speak to Richard Piercy at the Royal vet college (in Potters bar). He is brilliant and seriously knows what he is doing when it comes to neurological issues. http://www.rvc.ac.uk/staff/rpiercy.cfm

Each horse is different and what is advised for one horse is not necessarily going to be the same advice for the next!
 
Umm, it was me that pointed out to you that there are wobblers and wobblers.

Yes, the Bagby basket is a cage of metal to replace the vertebra. My vet told me that no-one will do it. They operate on foals. OK. Does anyone do it on adult horses? Do the foals go on to work? How long do the adults work, if at all? My friend had it done on a Doberman. It struggled on for a year and she wishes now that she had never put him through it.

I still think that you have no idea how your mare would have degenerated had she been in work. It was work that finally broke mine, I was riding him at the time. And it's how you judge how a wobbler is doing if you want to be working it! Not everyone has the luxury of putting their mare in foal, not every mare is worth breeding from.

This girl has had this ex racer TB three months. If she would prefer to be free of the problem than to go through everything that you went through with your horse (and you clearly have a lot of money, as much of it has to have been uninsured) then I fully support her putting the mare to sleep. I actually think that suggestions that she may be able to be saved for a breeding career will help no-one, even the horse.
 
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I actually think that suggestions that she may be able to be saved for a breeding career will help no-one, even the horse.
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I actually think the suggestion that she may be able to be saved for a breeding career is staggering, and completely inappropriate.
 
cptrayes - I can't believe how much you are assuming here!!! No, i do not have a lot of money. I had an insurance claim for my mare when she was diagnosed that lasted for 12 months. This covered the follow up 6 months after diagnosis and then again nearly 6 months after that. My mare is on grass livery and my 7yr old is on DIY. I get to the stables at 6am every morning in order to be at work at 8am and i am back at the stables in the evening straight after work. I work hard to be able to keep my horses thank you!

No my mare is not ridden as i was advised not to ride her! and nor am i am now insured to ride her!

Yes this op is performed in adult horses. My mare was a canditate for this op at 4 yrs old. As i clearly said "but your vet would have to advise if your horse is a good case for this"

I really do not see how anyone on here can advise whether to have the horse PTS or not!!! That is ridiculous! I think the vets that examin the horse are best placed to do that! It may well be the outcome that they suggest, it may well not be the outcome that they suggest!

I am glad i didnt post about my mare 9 years ago. As you clearly would have just advised me to have her PTS and she wouldn't have had the time nice life that she has had (and yes, a cheap option for me but one where she is very happy) and i wouldn't have the lovely 7yr old that i bred from her!
 
I will get shot down for this, I know. But....

She is a bright, happy and enthusiatic young horse. In 3 months she has gone form being a potential superstar at whatever she chose to turn her talented hooves to, to being a wobbly poorly condition wreck. She is cutting her legs to bits and getting stressy in and out. She has started cribbing like there is no tomorrow. I do not believe she is in pain but I do believe she is very bored and very frustrated.

Caring for the horse is not just about the physical as we all know. She loves working and if she cannot resume a proper working life then I hope I have the courage to have her PTS. To make her suffer mentally would be cruel. I also belive that if she has an issue like this there would always be the risk that she could trip and hurt herself. Personally a burden I do not want. It is essential that this beautiful, beautiful creature has some dignity and holding on to her to be an ornament (which it sounds is the best case scenario) is cruel. Breeding is most certainly not an option.
 
Sults said:
Yes this op is performed in adult horses. My mare was a canditate for this op at 4 yrs old. As i clearly said "but your vet would have to advise if your horse is a good case for this"
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That was nine years ago. My vet has told me in May that no-one will now do it on an adult horse because they think it is unethical.


I really do not see how anyone on here can advise whether to have the horse PTS or not!!! That is ridiculous! I think the vets that examin the horse are best placed to do that! It may well be the outcome that they suggest, it may well not be the outcome that they suggest!
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If the mare has wobblers confirmed, it is already routinely injuring itself constantly. It's an ex racer worth not a lot of money, except emotionally to the owner. She's had it 12 weeks or so. I have no hesitation, in that situation, of stating that I think that the mare should be put down.

I personally think that breeding from yours was irresponsible. I would not have done it. But then, we are all different, aren't we?
 
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PercyMum - i don't think you will get shot down. You need to do what is right for you and your horse x
 
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