Possible Wobbler - Potential Outcomes and What to Expect from LEH?

PercyMum said:
I will get shot down for this, I know. But....

She is a bright, happy and enthusiatic young horse. In 3 months she has gone form being a potential superstar at whatever she chose to turn her talented hooves to, to being a wobbly poorly condition wreck. She is cutting her legs to bits and getting stressy in and out. She has started cribbing like there is no tomorrow. I do not believe she is in pain but I do believe she is very bored and very frustrated.

Caring for the horse is not just about the physical as we all know. She loves working and if she cannot resume a proper working life then I hope I have the courage to have her PTS. To make her suffer mentally would be cruel. I also belive that if she has an issue like this there would always be the risk that she could trip and hurt herself. Personally a burden I do not want. It is essential that this beautiful, beautiful creature has some dignity and holding on to her to be an ornament (which it sounds is the best case scenario) is cruel. Breeding is most certainly not an option.
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Shot down? Far from it. What a sensible, caring owner you are. Best wishes for tomorrow.
 
I think you are being sensible and making the right decision. I would have a horse diagnosed with anything degenerative PTS sooner rather than later once diagnosed.

After dealing with my friends cushings horse being PTS last week I can see why it is best to do this sooner rather than later.

Hopefully the vets can shed some more light on the situation
 
cptrayes - i'm not sure how you can say what i did with my mare was irresponsible? My vets at the RVC advise she would be fine to breed from, i spoke to a well respected vet at the Animal health trust and another at Rossdales as well as couple of local vets. They all said that there should be no complications from breeding from MY mare. Why am i irresponsible for going by what numerous vets said to me? And now 7yrs later, it seems they were completely right.
I truly expect there are other cases where they would advise not to, other cases where they would advise to PTS and other cases where they would advise the op and others where they would advice retirement. Each case is different.
 
PercyMum - just been reading the whole thread and just wanted to say how sorry I feel for you - what a horrible situation to be in. I hope it proves to be something other than Wobblers, but if it is then it sounds like your decision is the right one of for you both.
 
Hi there,

Please don't all jump on me but, I too have a Wobbler, he is a 7 TB, and at the moment the vet is very shocked but nicely shocked by his progress,only had him since october and he was 5 stage vetted but looking back he prob had this too then. My boy is still with me and very happy, we have been told that there is no reason to stop riding or enjoying him, infact I have been encouraged by my vet and physio to ride him to stengthen weakness behind, ok I may have to tame my future plans for him but at the mo our plans are and hove included prelim dressage and sponsored rides, with lots of hacking and some schooling, after our last vet visit the vet actually said that he wouldn't be able to tell now that he was a wobbler, (but we do know from x-rays) he had cartofen jabs, once a week for 4 weeks, after an initial month on steriod capsules and in now on synequin. I am fully aware that this could all change and that there is no cure, although there was talk of a basket op to stablise the vertrebrae (I would put any horse through that), I am so happy that my boy is with me, and yes he is low grade but I would say that there are prob lots of horses either just bullied through their suffering in wobblers or just out there undiagniosed or just mis-understood.

I hope all goes well for you, there is always hope I believe until your vet advises you otherwise so I cross my fingers for you that it is very low grade like mine, but I would if my horse was any worse or started to detriorate have no hesitation in pts, its the kindest thing to do and is our duty to our horses to not let them suffer, so I think every situation needs to be assessed individually and with the help of vets etc and also from deep in our hearts.
 
amymay said:
Were you not concerned about the genetic links to wobblers?
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Yes i absolutley was. Which is why i discussed it with many different vets. The general consensus was that no actual gene has ever been found.

I was also told by the vet at rossdales that there have been experiments of putting a wobbler stallion to a wobblers mare but a wobbler foal was not produced. This does not mean that you can't end up with a wobbler from a wobbler, but it will probably be down to the diet. 'Traditionally' wobblers was found in big rangy types and fast growing horses ie, WB's & TB's. However, nowadays, it is found in all breeds, due to youngsters being overfed. Diet is the biggest factor.

A horse can also suddenly develop wobblers due to and accident or fall.
 
It's true that the breeding of two wobbler parents doesn't always increase the incidence of wobblers in the offspring. But other metabolic bone disorders such as osteochondrosis, physitis, and contracted tendons are more common in the offspring of wobbler parents.
 
Sults said:
cptrayes - i'm not sure how you can say what i did with my mare was irresponsible? My vets at the RVC advise she would be fine to breed from, i spoke to a well respected vet at the Animal health trust and another at Rossdales as well as couple of local vets. They all said that there should be no complications from breeding from MY mare. Why am i irresponsible for going by what numerous vets said to me? And now 7yrs later, it seems they were completely right.
I truly expect there are other cases where they would advise not to, other cases where they would advise to PTS and other cases where they would advise the op and others where they would advice retirement. Each case is different.
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Well, in the current horse market you could probably have bought your 7 year old horse as a 4 year old for less money that he has cost you to breed, putting one less meat-money horse at the bottom of the pile into the abbatoir.I'd love to breed but every time I do the sums I end up out of pocket :(

Also, my own understanding of the condition, though of course I don't know exactly what caused your own horse's ataxia, is that you could have gone out into the field at any time in the last 9 years, and still could, and find her down and unable to get up. I can only assume the ataxia scale used for your horse was different from the "out of 4" scale used for mine, because if mine had been 2/4 on the front as well as 2.5/4 on the back, he would have collapsed.

I'll admit to being baffled by your vets advice. She isn't safe to ride but they were sure she would come to no harm left in the field, even heavily pregnant? I think it was a risk you got away with, personally.

Clearly you had great advice from your vets and your mare had the temperament to cope (my gelding didn't) and it has all worked out and I am pleased for you. But I don't think that your situation compares in any way with the original poster's, and I don't believe in giving people false hope, it just leads to greater upset. I am sorry that in order to give what I think is realistic advice to her, I have had to appear to be rude to you, it was not my intention to upset you. I hope your mare and her son continue to have long and happy lives with you, sincerely.
 
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amymay said:
It's true that the breeding of two wobbler parents doesn't always increase the incidence of wobblers in the offspring. But other metabolic bone disorders such as osteochondrosis, physitis, and contracted tendons are more common in the offspring of wobbler parents.
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I can second this. If you chose to breed then fine. I shall not start my rant about breeding for the sake of giving a horse something to do but far too many people breed just because.

OP- keep us updated :)
 
cptrayes - My 7yr old cost me £1k in total (vet fee and stud fee) to put in foal. At 4 months old he lived out 24/7 until he was 4 yrs old costing me £10 per week, (a bargin round here in hertfordshire!). He is now just reached novice level eventing and is my perfect horse. I could have bought a lot worse for more money! He will never be for sale. I adore him and do feel very lucky to have him.

I am sure the vets all use the same scale. My mare is a typical TB chestnut mare - a big attitude. And yes, maybe it is her attitude that has helped her with her condition. If you saw her in a field you probably wouldn't pick her out as being the wobbler. IF this ever changed then i would have a very long hard think about the situation and hopefully make the right decisions for her.

No offence taken. I know we have both (and lots or other wobbler owners) have been through a lot. It is absolutely heartbreaking to hear that your horse is a wobbler.

I am not advising the OP to PTS or not PTS. I am advising to see what her vets say, and i would always advise phoning other vets too to gain as much knowledge & experiences as possible. Hopefully it will all help her to make the best decision for her and her horse.

And unfortunately i agree with whoever said that there are probably lots of low grade wobblers out there being ridden where the owner does not know....
 
One more think i would like to say... why is it not compulsary that the inhand test to test for wobblers is not done as part of any vetting? Some vets may test but i have seen many vettings where this is not done. It may not pick up every wobbler and the horse may still develop wobbers but it would surely catch some.
 
Sults said:
cptrayes - My 7yr old cost me £1k in total (vet fee and stud fee) to put in foal. At 4 months old he lived out 24/7 until he was 4 yrs old costing me £10 per week, (a bargin round here in hertfordshire!). He is now just reached novice level eventing and is my perfect horse. I could have bought a lot worse for more money! He will never be for sale. I adore him and do feel very lucky to have him.
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He sounds great, and is now worth a LOT of money :D, but he cost you much more than you realise :)

Livery for his dam for 18 months. £750
Livery for him for 4 years £2000
Flu jabs, rugs, etc for 2 horses say ... £500 minimum
Food for mare for 18 months, 1 winter £200 minimum
Food for youngster 4 years £1000 minimum
Farriery for both, minimum est £500

An absolute minimum of £5,000 for an unbroken 4 year old. I paid £3,000 for my unbroken 6 foot hedge hopper in 2009.

I am sure the vets all use the same scale. ....... If you saw her in a field you probably wouldn't pick her out as being the wobbler.
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Take a look at my video Sults. My vet graded a horse that moved all the time like that stumble after the halt as a 2/4. If your horse was like that in front and 2.5 on the back then she'd be having trouble staying on her feet, never mind being indistinguishable from the other horses in the field :eek: Your vets and mine were clearly using a totally different judgement if they were both grading out of 4. Mine had just returned from a neurological course, so maybe the current grading is different from 9 years ago, I don't know.

Good luck with your Novice comps, I used to love eventing but I'm too old now :p
 
cptrayes - I am fully aware of the other cost of getting him to 4yrs old, i didn't mean that that was the only costs, i didn't want to list them, but the initial stud & vet fee and then livery are the biggest cost which is why i only mentioned them. I know people who have paid more than £5k for their youngsters and have not managed to end up doing what they bought them for or in some cases not even get them to a show :o( Yes my boy is worth more than £5k now but no money could buy him from me :o)

Yes i have seen your pics, and i love that one you have going over the hedge!! Stunning photo!

I still think it is the same scale. My mare you really wouldn't know she was a wobbler if you see her in the field. But, if you do the inhand test, there is absolutely no doubt about it. I am lucky to have grazing where the fields are big and flat and as she has always been out in a herd of horses that were out 24/7 too, so nothing gets turned out fresh from a good nights sleep setting them all off (though she can still have her moments!). I would not turn her out on a steep hill or where horses were being turned in and out on a daily basis.

I just agree it must be her temperament. I suppose like with people, you can have 2 people with the same condition, but they cope differently with it.

The vets when i took my mare in said that some horses show really badly with the inhand tests but then the xrays look normal and vice versa. However, i could see the inhand test that my mare wasn't great and there is no arguing that her xrays, espcially from the mylogram, that its quite servere. But i am just grateful that she copes so well. However she does it!

Thanks for the good luck wishes :o) shame this season is being a bit of a write off with the weather! your not missing much ;o)
 
I'd be interested to know if Bagby Basket surgery is still carried out or not. I have assisted John Walmsley with a few in the past and it is a massive and invasive procedure but it can be the only chance of a normal life for wobblers but probably financially unviable for many. The outcomes were very mixed but compared to guaranteed euthanasia there was a chance.
 
Happy Horse said:
I'd be interested to know if Bagby Basket surgery is still carried out or not. I have assisted John Walmsley with a few in the past and it is a massive and invasive procedure but it can be the only chance of a normal life for wobblers but probably financially unviable for many. The outcomes were very mixed but compared to guaranteed euthanasia there was a chance.
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Only really carried out on younger horses and only a maximum of 55% success rate.
There is always a chance - but would you want to put your horse through very invasive surgery? Also - it is always hard to gauge whether the horse has wobblers due to injury or it is just genetically predisposed.
Regarding breeding from a wobbler - that to me is a definite no!
Most wobblers cases do not become apprent until they are more mature (as in my lads case), so although you may think you have bred a healthy foal with no issues....it may come back to bite you on the proverbial.
My vet, a couple of the Newmarket vets & Bell equine vets categorically stated NO riding - the consition is degenerative and there was no predicting when your horse would collapse when the pressure on the spinal cord became too much. Even keeping a wobbler as a paddock ornament has severe risks due to the high chance of them injuring themselves extensively. Without insurance that could be horrific and potentially cause suffering for the horse and euthanasia anyway. Very few people have upwards of £5K lying around.
My vets were adamant that a wobbler horse was a very unstable horse. Interestingly enough - my insurance paid out for the euthanasia of my gorgeous boy even though he was only a grade 2. My vet spoke to the insurance company and explained that the horrific injuries he kept inflicting on himself were affecting his quality of life. They agreed (usually they only pay out if it is Grade 5)
Wobblers is very common in larger horses (17hh upwards),TB's, geldings and those that have had Tie back/hobdays (related to the main nerve that runs from the Larynx down through the spine)
My heart goes out to anyone who has to go through what I did with my horse of a lifetime. My life is not the same without him and I still miss him every day.
I know though that having him pts was the right thing to do and the best thing to do for my wonderful, kind gentleman.
This is him only 8 months before he was pts:

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Incidentally he was 3/4 TB & 1/4 Hanoverian, 17.2hh gelding and he had a full tie back op as a 5 year old.
 
amymay said:
I'm so sorry for your situation OP. No good prognosis, and a good equine vet can diagnose without the expense of hospital.
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Sorry, not read the whole thread, no time but I'm afraid I have to disagree with the above.

Unless you have an EXCELLENT equine vet who sees wobblers all the time and can produce first class cervical radiographs at your yard, then the horse must go to hospital to have a diagnosis.

'Wobblers' is a word bandied round far too loosely, it seems to me. Many vets have never seen a true case first hand, let alone diagnosed one. It's essential to get this confirmed with radiographs and to rule out viral or bacterial conditions which can have a neurological impact.
 
Happy Horse said:
I'd be interested to know if Bagby Basket surgery is still carried out or not. I have assisted John Walmsley with a few in the past and it is a massive and invasive procedure but it can be the only chance of a normal life for wobblers but probably financially unviable for many. The outcomes were very mixed but compared to guaranteed euthanasia there was a chance.
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Basket surgery is still done overseas - the Australians don't like it but they do use it in NZ.

My understanding is that it's only really suitable for horses with mild ataxia, since the improvement it can produce is a grade at the very best, but more realistically half a grade.
 
PercyMum said:
Poorly mare has gone downhill again. Vet came out and has referred to Liphook. She goes in on Tuesday. Over the phone the consultant vet is 99% sure she is a Wobbler, although admits as a 5yo mare (TB) it is unusual.

I have done a bit of reading and it seems very varied as to what treatment is available and how successful it is. In all honesty (dependent on the severity), can she be fixed? Will she have an active working life? ATM she is going mad as she cannot be worked so I do not feel retirement is an option for her.

Finally, what tests/procedures is she likely to go through when she gets there?

Thanks in advance. Healing vibes for my poor girl would be much appreciated :-(

Posted in Veterinary too but no answers so far :(
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Hope all goes well tomorrow, my guy went wobbly a few weeks ago now, he got better, then worse again, then better, then really bad today, 4 th time vet has came out and he was diagnosed with cushings 2 weeks ago.
He has found a lump on his right side of his neck, which he thinks might me a tumor which is causing the pressure on his spinal cord.
He has been given a steroid injection today, so we will see what tomorrow brings, im dreading it but I have to think of his quality of life but seeing him like that is heartbreaking.
I hope you get good news.
 
AMH said:
Sorry, not read the whole thread, no time but I'm afraid I have to disagree with the above.

Unless you have an EXCELLENT equine vet who sees wobblers all the time and can produce first class cervical radiographs at your yard, then the horse must go to hospital to have a diagnosis.

'Wobblers' is a word bandied round far too loosely, it seems to me. Many vets have never seen a true case first hand, let alone diagnosed one. It's essential to get this confirmed with radiographs and to rule out viral or bacterial conditions which can have a neurological impact.
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dont agree with this at all, mine was diagnosed with bad ataxia just looking at me walking him to the stable. vet wasnt even asked to come out for that problem. if its bad and noticably enough they can diagnoise it, i didnt have the money to spend on the diagnosis and my vet said in my case sucess rate wasnt even there. mine was pts in march after being diagnosed last summer. i loved him to peices and seeing him go happy was a releif. if he was to break a bone through me keeping him alive for me i would never ever forgive myself. now my kast memories of him are him falling asleep in my arms. was told not to ride and anyone who rides wobblers is insane!!!!!!!!!!!!! their temperament has nothing to do with it and is complete crap. they have no clue theyre wobbly, it is normal for them. i just hope that you dont go down the field to find your mare not being able to get up or having broken her pelvis as that is the most common injury to ataxic horses. they are unsafe to ride not only for you but for them. and every case is degenerative. fact!! depending on the individual cases depends on how quick they get worse. i would not feel happy turning my horse out 24/7 if it slipped in the rain i would never forgive myself. it is not fair to keep the horse alive for yourself, wobblers is wobblers. wont get any better and i was told by some of the best vets in the country that even after surgery, they cannot be ridden, is invasive spinal surgery really worth the money and the horses pain if the succes rate is 55%.
 
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