Possibly a very boring stupid question

[DizzyDoughnut]

Please tell me if my theory is as stupid as I think it might be?

I've been idly musing today, since I lost my little shetland a couple of weeks ago I've borrowed the most lovely horse to keep my last remaining pony company. My temporary friend is the most laid back lovely Saint of a horse but according to his mum he has always been at the bottom of the pecking order. My shetland was also always at the bottom of the pecking order in any herd.

Now is it just a coincidence that they both are/were possibly the most laid back polite friendly Ponies you could hope to meet or are horses and Ponies that are lower ranking in the herd more likely to be that way?

Also if it was my shetland out with the new friend and both of them have always been bottom of the herd I'm assuming one of them would have to take the lead or would they just bimble round like an indecisive pair doing whatever they felt like?

In defence of my rambling stupid question I have been out for Sunday lunch and may have had a bit to much wine!

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Sorry to shatter your theory but my lead mare is the kindest, gentlest most easy going sole you could hope to find. Maybe the exception proves the rule?

 

[scruffyponies]

IME the ones who are usually at the bottom can be absolute gits when they find someone they can bully.

 

[Shilasdair]

I'm not sure that 'hierarchies' work as the equine behaviourists would once have you believe.
It's much more complex than that. I have two mares. One is large, dominant and inclined to be somewhat full on with other new horses in fields next door. The other is peaceful, and always gets out of the large dominant mare's way. However, she's the one who makes decisions, and who is the real 'leader' of the two...

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

Haha I knew my theory based on a study of 2 would hit a snag ?

My old boy was always the leader in every herd and he was kind and gentle but not in anyway laid back!

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

I'm not sure that 'hierarchies' work as the equine behaviourists would once have you believe.
It's much more complex than that. I have two mares. One is large, dominant and inclined to be somewhat full on with other new horses in fields next door. The other is peaceful, and always gets out of the large dominant mare's way. However, she's the one who makes decisions, and who is the real 'leader' of the two...

Of my original 3, one was always in charge even when they were out as part of larger herds, the 2nd one was always trying to be in charge but was knocked back every time he tried to challenge for leadership and then was a thuggish bully to those below him and then the Shetland who was always at the bottom but just seemed to keep herself to herself and get on with whatever she wanted to do anyway while keeping out of the way.

Since I lost number 1 leader pony last year Number 2 bully pony finally achieved his life goal of leadership and it transformed him, he's a far nicer pony now and more laid back and less thuggish with others.
When his new friend arrived he went over to establish himself as the boss and his new friend didn't put up any fight just immediately let mine herd him round wherever he wanted him to be and they both seem to be happy together.

It's fascinating watching them and their neighbours in the field next door as they decide who can be friends with who.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Mine is always bottom and she is an absolute angel with people. All she wants is a cuddle and a polo.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

I'm not sure that 'hierarchies' work as the equine behaviourists would once have you believe.
It's much more complex than that. I have two mares. One is large, dominant and inclined to be somewhat full on with other new horses in fields next door. The other is peaceful, and always gets out of the large dominant mare's way. However, she's the one who makes decisions, and who is the real 'leader' of the two...

Agree with this 100%. I have one mare who is very aggressive around food, and the other one will scuttle very quickly out of the way at the very first hint of a bum being turned in her direction. But the bolshy one is also always looking to the "passive" one for reassurance, and seems to fall in behind her grazing pattern.

It's true that in my pair, the more "dominant" mare can be pushy and impatient, and she tolerates rather than enjoying human company (but on the plus side she's literally as brave as a lion) whilst the "lower ranking" mare is an absolute sweetheart. But I think maybe what I see as "bolshy" might actually be "anxious", and maybe that's unrelated to herd position? I find herd dynamics absolutely fascinating.

 

[saddlesore]

Yeah herd dynamics and horse personalities are two different things IME. My current boy is a great example in that he is middle bottom in the pecking order (large herd), but a very confident lead file out hacking that the others happily trust and follow. They make up their own rules ?

 

[Lois Lame]

Please tell me if my theory is as stupid as I think it might be?

I've been idly musing today, since I lost my little shetland a couple of weeks ago I've borrowed the most lovely horse to keep my last remaining pony company. My temporary friend is the most laid back lovely Saint of a horse but according to his mum he has always been at the bottom of the pecking order. My shetland was also always at the bottom of the pecking order in any herd.

Now is it just a coincidence that they both are/were possibly the most laid back polite friendly Ponies you could hope to meet or are horses and Ponies that are lower ranking in the herd more likely to be that way?

Also if it was my shetland out with the new friend and both of them have always been bottom of the herd I'm assuming one of them would have to take the lead or would they just bimble round like an indecisive pair doing whatever they felt like?

In defence of my rambling stupid question I have been out for Sunday lunch and may have had a bit to much wine!

That's a nice question.

I think that these bottom of the pecking order horses are nicer horses for us people who like a pleasant, I-don't-have-to-win-at-all-costs type of horse.

For those who want to compete, and win, I think one of those 'get-out-of-my-way, Fleabag' type of horses is best because a brave, determined horse is what they need.

I reckon that two low ranking horses who like each other will find their own rules if left to it, and that might depend on the two individuals themselves, so fairly hard to say.

 

[pansymouse]

My mare is a the leader in the full absolute dictator Kim Jong-un tradition but she loves a pony and will always adopt the smallest in the herd as be favoured side kick and let it to get away with things the others would get a pasting for.

 

[Millie-Rose]

IME the ones who are usually at the bottom can be absolute gits when they find someone they can bully.

Too true my little Welsh is vile and will launch into an unprovoked attack whenever anyone new is added even if they've been in adjoining field for weeks as she's desperate not to be bottom anymore. My dominant mare is kind to newcomers as is confident in her superiority! My old girl became bottom of order with age but she just kept herself to herself although would fight back if cornered- the Welsh goes looking for a fight.

 

[Annagain]

My bottom of the pile, everybody's friend when it comes to horses, old man can be a total git to handle. My leader of the pack, horrible to other horses share horse is a total gent to humans.

Monty is a bit of a reluctant leader and doesn't really have social skills. Really, he wants a quiet life and most of him being horrible to others is actually fear and just wanting them to stay away from him. He took on the mantle after two of his more dominant (but kind) fieldmates died fairly close to each other. He was far happier in the middle of the pack. It''s like all his responses are heightened. He was terrified of those above him (even though they were dominant but not nasty to him) but horrible to those beneath him. It's like he's never learnt to be strong without being nasty. It makes me quite sad to see him.

Archie in comparison is a total social genius. He's totally happy with where he is in the pack. Because he never threatens anyone, they all tolerate him very good naturedly and he tends to get his own way without a fight. They let him through the gate in winter and he gets the best spot under the tree in the summer because he'll work his way in there grooming (literally and metaphorically!) as he goes. Even Monty will let him share a feed bucket once they've been eating tea next to each other for a few weeks (they normally have tea in stables but when they go down to the hay fields, they have tea together just outside the field). The second any of them boss him around he complies but they all do it very gently as that's all he needs. If they chase him off, he walks but never runs away and they stop as soon as he starts to move.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

My previous mare was extremely gentle but a clear leader, only ever had to flick an ear in the direction of another horse and they’d be out of her way.

My current mare, was a bottom of the pecking order, when she arrived, she had a week on her own in a neighbouring paddock, then she went in with a Connie who was late twenties (also bottom of the herd) and he spent all his energy moving her around the field for the next two weeks, then one day she had enough and snapped and chased him while they were both about to drink and he leapt the water trough to get out of her way. She never made contact but he was terrified of her after that. (I was very fortunate that I could sit in the lounge and watch the interactions while working from home).

Current mare - we’ve previously kept her separate from the three little ones as the mini x and one of the mini shetlands we have are absolute swines for launching a joint attack on anything new, no matter how long they’ve been sweet over the fence for beforehand. My mini x learns his lesson though, he went for my hubby’s mare (god rest her soul) and she double barrelled him side on and he stayed clear after that, the mini Shetland that we’ve had since a foal, is a different matter, he doesn’t learn and will Keep going back for more. The other mini we have is just a darling and loves everyone.

We have an interesting mix now, as current mare is in with the minis after almost two years, they’re all low herd members really (the two minis just try it on) but she has ended up taking the lead role (and I don’t think she likes it), she’s always on guard and very nervy of anything rustling in the hedge line and regularly sets the herd off running but at least she stands in front of the little ones as if to protect them.......usually from the rabbit that lives in the hedge line ?.

I think she will be pleased when we finally find hubby a new horse and hopefully she can give up the lead role.

 

[SantaVera]

with 2 I think it depends on what the other horse is like. I had 2 horses, one being really quite dominant, but not agressivly so. The cob , the underdog,put up with a lot ,was shoved around the paddock, pushed away from the net of hay and so on. he just got on with life and accepted it. he really does not like to lead outhacking ( the cob that is) put him behind and he relaxes and gets on with it. I sold the dominant horse last year and bought another. now the cob it "top dog". he can be quite agressive too. this came as a real shock. the other horse is quite a live -wire and you would have thought he would have taken top place. actually I am quite pleased for the cob who has spent the last 10 years being dominated.

 

[hollyandivy123]

i always seem to own the "parent" of the field..........the last 3 have always been alpha but in a chilled way, the latest appears to have the personality of a junior school head mistress with the others, if they prat about one short call and a Paddington bear stare, suddenly everything stops and seems to have the "guilty got caught kid face"..................nice bit of humanizing..

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

Current mare - we’ve previously kept her separate from the three little ones as the mini x and one of the mini shetlands we have are absolute swines for launching a joint attack on anything new, no matter how long they’ve been sweet over the fence for beforehand. My mini x learns his lesson though, he went for my hubby’s mare (god rest her soul) and she double barrelled him side on and he stayed clear after that, the mini Shetland that we’ve had since a foal, is a different matter, he doesn’t learn and will Keep going back for more. The other mini we have is just a darling and loves everyone.

We have an interesting mix now, as current mare is in with the minis after almost two years, they’re all low herd members really (the two minis just try it on) but she has ended up taking the lead role (and I don’t think she likes it), she’s always on guard and very nervy of anything rustling in the hedge line and regularly sets the herd off running but at least she stands in front of the little ones as if to protect them.......usually from the rabbit that lives in the hedge line ?.

I think she will be pleased when we finally find hubby a new horse and hopefully she can give up the lead role.

My mini was just so lovely she genuinely seemed quite happy at the bottom but she did manage to get away with far more bucket sharing etc than anything else would have, I don't know if that was down to her cunning sneekyness or the fact she was genuinely no threat to anyone. She was super brave out hacking and in general she just didn't find anything scary she would lead her bigger friends past anything.

The one I have left, I think was pleased when my old leader pony died last year because he was finally the boss of a tiny shetland who couldn't care less. Luckily his new friend also seems happy at the bottom and let's himself be herded around the field. I think he will be devastated if I find him a permanent friend that ousts him from his position, he'd probably take it about as well as Putin would!

 

[Annagain]

My mini was just so lovely she genuinely seemed quite happy at the bottom but she did manage to get away with far more bucket sharing etc than anything else would have, I don't know if that was down to her cunning sneekyness or the fact she was genuinely no threat to anyone.

I'm pretty sure it's the lack of threat. Archie is the same. When he walks to the gate is like the parting of the red sea, he'll even stop to have a sniff or give them a little groom on the way past. Monty has to force them out of the way with face pulling and bum turning. It works but he hates it.

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

I'm pretty sure it's the lack of threat. Archie is the same. When he walks to the gate is like the parting of the red sea, he'll even stop to have a sniff or give them a little groom on the way past. Monty has to force them out of the way with face pulling and bum turning. It works but he hates it.

Aww poor Monty, its a shame there's no courses to send them on like the horse version of how to manage and motive a team.

 

[Bernster]

I’ve wondered the same, whether herd placement/hierarchy has some connection to the horses temperament. But I’ve had a mix, very steady calm types who are bottom of the ladder and others that were dominant/herd leader.

 

[Squeak]

Archie in comparison is a total social genius. He's totally happy with where he is in the pack. Because he never threatens anyone, they all tolerate him very good naturedly and he tends to get his own way without a fight. They let him through the gate in winter and he gets the best spot under the tree in the summer because he'll work his way in there grooming (literally and metaphorically!) as he goes. Even Monty will let him share a feed bucket once they've been eating tea next to each other for a few weeks (they normally have tea in stables but when they go down to the hay fields, they have tea together just outside the field). The second any of them boss him around he complies but they all do it very gently as that's all he needs. If they chase him off, he walks but never runs away and they stop as soon as he starts to move.

I had one like this. I never found a horse or horses that he couldn't go out with and all my horses loved him. He was never the boss but he would always sidle over to food etc. that he wanted and persist until he was allowed it. The two big 'lads' of geldings that no one else could go out with, he had great fun teasing but was always clever enough to know when to stop.

When he was with another passive horse they just mooched around and had a very sedate life. When we lost him my other horse was heartbroken.

 

[Annagain]

I had one like this. I never found a horse or horses that he couldn't go out with and all my horses loved him. He was never the boss but he would always sidle over to food etc. that he wanted and persist until he was allowed it. The two big 'lads' of geldings that no one else could go out with, he had great fun teasing but was always clever enough to know when to stop.

When he was with another passive horse they just mooched around and had a very sedate life. When we lost him my other horse was heartbroken.

At the moment he and Monty have gone on their holidays as M has a suspensory injury and needs quiet turnout. They are always side by side, never more than a couple of feet apart and I've seen them trot once in 8 weeks. It's all lovely and chilled, just what Monty needs physically and he seems the happiest he's been out grazing in years. He still pushes Arch around but far more good naturedly than he normally does and they're sharing a bucket. They start off with two identical feeds than M chases Arch off so they swap buckets. Once A has finished his bucket (he eats more quickly) he sidles up to M and is allowed to share his so A actually gets more feed! Sadly we have to move them back soon as this was only ever a temporary thing. I suspect Arch would like a few more friends around but Monty is definitely happier without a big herd to lead.

When we were riding on Gower we came across a very aggressive wild stallion, he was only about 10hh but all the other horses were terrified of him. Arch was whickering at him and trying to make friends!