Possibly the longest OP in the world - my navicular woes

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AmyHack

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HI all, I am a huge lurker on here, I had a posting stint a few years ago and a lot has changed since then. After years of loaning I bought my very own horse 18 months ago. Long story short she is very experienced, she taught me how to ride properly and she has become the love of my life (second love of my life if OH asks). I don’t really know why I am posting – mainly to write a few things out to help clear my head, for some advice and also I think I’m just after some sympathy from people that understand. Bear with me – I think this is the record for the longest post (essay!)

Very early on into owning her I got the impression something wasn’t quite right. Ridden wise she is (and has always been) absolutely perfect, never puts a foot wrong. Steady and reliable and steps it up a gear when you ask, she is pure joy to ride. However, during our first winter together she became more and more grumpy with rugs and tacking up and would pull some horrific faces, lift legs and generally seem unhappy when you were messing with her. Her nature is very placid and very sweet so I knew it wasn’t her. After mentally fighting off the comments from more experienced horsey people that she was ‘just a mare’ I got her checked by the vets. Queue a stream of investigations into hormones, ovary scans, sacroiliac pain, kissing spine, hock x-rays and scoping for ulcers. Only thing that came up was grade 2-3 ulcers. I put it down to spending a lot of time in due to yard rules, treated her with peptizole, 6 weeks later scoped pretty much clear. Relocated and moved yards and spent the summer out – grumpy behaviour lessened and pretty much subsided but I still had a feeling something wasn’t 100%. Vets thought SI pain so steroid injections, still intermittently funny with her back. Lots of messing with saddles, fortune spent on chiropractors, bowen therapy, physio tape (me being a novice owner and listening to advice from everyone and not trusting myself) and I stopped riding last summer because I just knew something wasn’t right and didn’t know what to do and was fed up of conflicting advice from ‘professionals’.

A close trusted friend then convinced me to bring her back into work slowly with careful saddle checks and lots of hacking. On a few occasions I saw a lame step in front on the lunge so vet back out – nothing significant enough to block, horse has a lot of miles on the clock and is unfit so press on and see what happens. Lameness returned and I got fed up and sent her to Bell Equine for an assessment with the ortho lady to check head to toe. She had all four legs and SI joint scanned and blocked and trot up after trot up. After being there all day vet decided bi laterally lame in front, blocked it to feet and requested MRI. MRI showed navicular bone changes and all the inflammation on tendons around it that go with it. Vet said its not the end of the world and would still have a decent ridden life, managed well and she could continue to so everything as before and even still low level jumping. Looking back at it I believe all the other issues are secondary to the navicular. She is currently managed with pads and gel under front shoes and wedges behind and seems to be doing well. I won’t jump her again (won’t risk the concussion) and I am only working her to what I feel she can handle to keep her interested in life – she loves working. Shes schooling (soft is better for her feet) and limited hacking as she struggles on the road downhill so we find routes that have roads uphill and softer bridlepaths back down. I am very very careful with her.

Current problem is grumpiness has returned, started at beginning of winter and has got progressively worse over it. I am now asking myself is it just because its winter? - she did the same last winter, a lot of horses get grumpy and frustrated this time of year or have the ulcers returned from low grade pain? There wasn’t a huge improvement in symptoms after the last course of omeprazole – the improvement was in the scope and the symptoms subsided when the warmer weather came and the grass came through. Insurance is maxed out and another scope and omeprazole will put at least £1500 on my credit card so I am hesitating a little. Obviously I would spend the money in a heart beat, I would do anything for her but I need to be sensible – she can’t be on omeprazole constantly can she? Vets have said not to worry unless behaviour affects her riding and handling.

She currently has ad lib hay (I am obsessed with it and she never goes without), a handful of alpha-a oil (recc for ulcers by vets) and light balancer (shes a very good doer) with Ex-egus supplement and aloe vera. Pain relief for the navicular is limited. Bute and danilon are out of the question due to history of ulcers and vets are reluctant to steroid inject the navicular bursa just yet as she looks relatively sound (vets commented that she has seen more lame horses eventing!) and she is only 10 so she may need steroid injections for a large chunk of her life, hence putting it off as much as we can.
Barefoot rehab is not an option unless I want to retire her. Farrier is open minded and willing to try but has said she won’t cope with any sort of work without shoes. Would do this as a last resort but I feel we haven’t got there yet as she loves her work and vets are happy for her to continue working for the time being. I feel that if the shoes can patch her up for another few years so she can enjoy light work that would be better for her than spending years trying to rehab her feet when she might not have that long left in her working life.

This horse is the sweetest, most willing horse, and I would do anything for her.

Please be kind to me, I’m a sensitive sort. Thankyou.
 
Farrier is open minded and willing to try but has said she won’t cope with any sort of work without shoes.
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Ha, my old farrier said the same about my mare. She was sound as soon as the shoes came off and has been sound and BF for several years now.
 
Faracat said:
Ha, my old farrier said the same about my mare. She was sound as soon as the shoes came off and has been sound and BF for several years now.
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Mine too. My horse could not stand on a bare foot to have the shoe put on the other one. He had to be shod one foot at a time. He was back doing BE Novice nine months later, barefoot.

Please OP, ring Nic Barker at Rockley Farm if you really want to do anything to save your horse. She's only ten, she has years of sound life left.

It sounds as if your vet hasn't told you that the bone changes don't correlate with lameness unless they are really, really severe? Navicular is not a degenerative disease as you sound as if you've been told. The inflammation is probably what's causing the lameness. Resolve that by allowing her to balance her feet barefoot, and it will go away. She could eat have fifteen sound years in her yet. And I mean sound, jumping, the lot, not forever being careful what ground you work her on.
 
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Faracat said:
Ha, my old farrier said the same about my mare. She was sound as soon as the shoes came off and has been sound and BF for several years now.
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Did you have to rehab her? She had shoes off for two weeks between x rays and mri scan and she was crippled for the whole time. I'm not against barefoot, it makes sense to me, I'm just trying to decide if the process would be worth it.
 
AmyHack said:
Did you have to rehab her? She had shoes off for two weeks between x rays and mri scan and she was crippled for the whole time. I'm not against barefoot, it makes sense to me, I'm just trying to decide if the process would be worth it.
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Mine was crippled without shoes on. Three months to sound hacking on good surfaces, six months to sound hacking on all surfaces, nine months to affiliated eventing at 1m 10
 
ycbm said:
Mine too. My horse could not stand on a bare foot to have the shoe put on the other one. He had to be shod one foot at a time. He was back doing BE Novice nine months later, barefoot.

Please OP, ring Nic Barker at Rockley Farm if you really want to do anything to save your horse. She's only ten, she has years of sound life left.
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I think I do need to speak to her. Thanks for your advice. I'm just terrified. Little old me going against vets and farriers. I just don't want to waste years trying to get her feet right when I might not have that long left. Or am I making excuses? It so hard to know what's best!
 
ycbm said:
Mine was crippled without shoes on. Three months to sound hacking on good surfaces, six months to sound hacking on all surfaces, nine months to affiliated eventing at 1m 10
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Thankyou for this. I had in my head it would take like years and years to grow good enough feet as she has been shod all her life. I do believe the concussion from the shoes coupled with bad feet and alot of hard work have let to the outcome.
 
AmyHack said:
I think I do need to speak to her. Thanks for your advice. I'm just terrified. Little old me going against vets and farriers. I just don't want to waste years trying to get her feet right when I might not have that long left. Or am I making excuses? It so hard to know what's best!
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I won't pretend, it is very hard to go against vets and farrier advice on your own. If you can afford Rockley, they will kick start the while process for you and hopefully return you a rideable horse that you can continue the rehab work with at home after twelve weeks.
 
This could be exactly my own thread last year. Have a look through my threads about feet from march 2016 onwards about Torres.

Did the exact same and racked up 8.5k of vet fees. My horse was put down but he was an ex racer with a lot going on however I took the shoes off after remedial pads and wedges and his hoof balance did improve. If I ever had another navicular horse I would be taking the shoes off straight away. Hoof boots are a god send. Ester, Andalucian and YCBM on here are also a god send. You will have tons of support and advice.

Good luck xxxx
 
OP if it were my horse it would be a shoes off job.
What do her feet look like ? .
Has she been having shoeing breaks regularity .
I would contact Rockley and talk it through .
I am not one for not telling the truth but one option is to say to the vet and farrier I can't cope with this I am turning her away and quietly send her to Rockley .
I would advise you to buy Nic Barkers book feet first and read it so you get can think through the whole BF thing .
I am right the horse is ten that's young worth investing time in .
 
It is hard. I went through several vets and got a new farrier too. Once I had a vet and farrier who were positive, I got them both out together. The shoe removal was done in two stages. 1st the hooves were trimmed and she was reshod with a much better hoof balance and heel support (she had long toes and under-run heels). The next time just the farrier came and he removed the shoes.

I was very careful and kept her on comfortable surfaces, then started short walks in hand, again on comfortable surfaces. She progressed well and as soon as she was doing a reasonable amount of walking on smooth tarmac, her hoof shape just got better and better. I'm not ashamed to say that to start with I actually swept the road with a broom to get rid of stones that were on top of the tarmac. I wanted to set her up for success.
 
Feel for you OP! I had a horse who was diagnosed with navicular when he was 9. Came sound with remedial shoeing and it never gave him another lame day until he was 14, at which point MRI showed it was 'end stage' and his working life was over. He also had other issues, including being a shiverer in front, which made everything front foot related more difficult and following the MRI Rossdales advised against steroid injections into his navicular bursa because it would just be too upsetting for him. Like your girl he was crippled without front shoes so I didn't feel I could justify to myself putting him through a barefoot rehab when all the advice I was getting from the professionals was against it. Looking back now, two and a half years after he was PTS, I wonder if I had gone the barefoot route when he was 9 whether he would still be here today. I will never know what would have happened, and I can't tell you what I think you should do, just wanted to say I know how difficult it is to know what is the right thing to do for your horse and you feel insufficiently experienced to go against the advice of the professionals you have put your trust in, and the more experienced people around you.
 
Thankyou for the support guys. I'm not good at quoting on here.

YCBM - The vet hasn't really told me much. All I've got from her is that remedial shoeing has really helped (when she looked ta her 2 months after diagnosis) and to push on with work and try and build her back up - she should be able to return to full work if careful and managed correctly. I disagree, she is a trier and I know she will push on through most things if she is enjoying herself. The difference in her walking speed at the beginning of a downwards hill makes me think differently. I was of the opinion that this was only going to get worse with more work and time - and managing it will slow progression, sounds like I am wrong. Maybe I am getting confused with all the opinions (farrier, physio and vet all seem to have completely different attitudes).

Michen - As a lurker I have dipped in and out of your journey with Torres, and I am deeply heartbroken for what you have recently been through. Thankyou for still sticking around and posting - I don't know if I'd be so brave. I will re-read your posts to refresh my memory.

Goldenstar - Her feet aren't great, there isn't really much too them - they're also too small for her body (I bought her for her temperament as a first horse - not for her conformation, that bit me in the bum!) The farrier has done a really good job though, they are better than they have ever been. I'll post some pics if I can get some tomorrow. Frogs are fading before my eyes since wedges have been put on the hinds :( but it has resolved the toe dragging. She has only ever had shoes off for the two weeks between the x-rays and MRI scan (they couldn't fit us in for 2 weeks) which was hell. I bought some hoof boots but they rubbed and she just couldnt walk anywhere. And yes she is only 10, she hunted and was a pony club horse before I bought her so she has lots of miles on the clock.

Faracat and micropony - thankyou for your experiences. I think I need to really think about sending her to Rockley to give her the best chance. I am terrified thought that it will all go wrong and I will have to go grovelling back to my farrier (who only took me on as a favour as I am a friend of one of his very close friends). He is very good and isn't taking on new clients and hasn't for many years.
 
My friend's horse has navicular and shocking feet, he'd never cope barefoot. She has glue on shoes for him and he's never looked back.
He has also had ulcers and she maintains him as though he always has them. If you are on reduced turn out in winter, this can explain a flare up in ulcer symptoms again. My friend's vet explained that stables horses never really get the same volumes of forage as grazing horses due to the yard environment.
 
Thank you. Masses of luck with whatever you decide to do, she is a lucky mare. xxxx

AmyHack said:
Thankyou for the support guys. I'm not good at quoting on here.

YCBM - The vet hasn't really told me much. All I've got from her is that remedial shoeing has really helped (when she looked ta her 2 months after diagnosis) and to push on with work and try and build her back up - she should be able to return to full work if careful and managed correctly. I disagree, she is a trier and I know she will push on through most things if she is enjoying herself. The difference in her walking speed at the beginning of a downwards hill makes me think differently. I was of the opinion that this was only going to get worse with more work and time - and managing it will slow progression, sounds like I am wrong. Maybe I am getting confused with all the opinions (farrier, physio and vet all seem to have completely different attitudes).

Michen - As a lurker I have dipped in and out of your journey with Torres, and I am deeply heartbroken for what you have recently been through. Thankyou for still sticking around and posting - I don't know if I'd be so brave. I will re-read your posts to refresh my memory.

Goldenstar - Her feet aren't great, there isn't really much too them - they're also too small for her body (I bought her for her temperament as a first horse - not for her conformation, that bit me in the bum!) The farrier has done a really good job though, they are better than they have ever been. I'll post some pics if I can get some tomorrow. Frogs are fading before my eyes since wedges have been put on the hinds :( but it has resolved the toe dragging. She has only ever had shoes off for the two weeks between the x-rays and MRI scan (they couldn't fit us in for 2 weeks) which was hell. I bought some hoof boots but they rubbed and she just couldnt walk anywhere. And yes she is only 10, she hunted and was a pony club horse before I bought her so she has lots of miles on the clock.

Faracat and micropony - thankyou for your experiences. I think I need to really think about sending her to Rockley to give her the best chance. I am terrified thought that it will all go wrong and I will have to go grovelling back to my farrier (who only took me on as a favour as I am a friend of one of his very close friends). He is very good and isn't taking on new clients and hasn't for many years.
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Flicker said:
My friend's horse has navicular and shocking feet, he'd never cope barefoot. She has glue on shoes for him and he's never looked back.
He has also had ulcers and she maintains him as though he always has them. If you are on reduced turn out in winter, this can explain a flare up in ulcer symptoms again. My friend's vet explained that stables horses never really get the same volumes of forage as grazing horses due to the yard environment.
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Are they glued on permanently Flicker? She isn't on the same yard anymore where they restricted turnout. She is in overnight during winter but out everyday no matter the weather and although there is not much grass at the moment she has ad lib hay in stable and field. I do have to be very careful with her weight though as she is overweight (not massively but too much for this time of year) she lives on fresh air and the advice that has been given to me is to keep her on the leaner side in order to reduce weight going through her feet.
 
http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/ If you are vaguely considering the idea of barefoot at all (even if just in the back of your mind) then I would second / third / whatever no we're on talking to Nic (think her email address is on the website I've linked to?). I am of the personal opinion that all evidence I've seen suggests that barefoot rehab (nb this normally consists of more than just the removal of shoes) offers a better long term prognosis for horses with navicular than shoeing of whatever variety. I am not a vet or a farrier or a trimmer and so I can't back this opinion up with a qualification. Anyhow with a young horse I'd say it's worth a shot if you're feeling that you're having to be so careful right now still and the horse still isn't fully coping and you're only expecting a few more years of being able to lightly work her.

That said my horse is a Rockley rehab. His official diagnosis was sidebone but he did have some mild soft tissue changes around the navicular bone / associated structures. Oh and rather horrendously long toes and soles that may as well have been made of paper. He was so sore when his shoes were taken off for MRI that I had to boxrest him in hoof boots and then book an appointment with the first remedial farrier that I could get hold of and drive him to the forge as previous farrier couldn't fit us in quick enough. I could never have managed the initial transition at home in a million years with him. Didn't know enough (still don't), setup was all wrong and just didn't / don't have that sort of time on my hands to put the initial work in. Because of the surfaces on the tracks at Rockley he was able to walk around fairly comfortably (as long as he could crawl over the concrete for the first few weeks when coming in for feeds etc) and he improved in the time he was there so that he was happy to go over concrete and was totally happy on grass and soft surfaces (He still isn't a fan of stones and really rutted surfaces. Hard to say how much is sensitivity and how much is just him being a bit of a panicker as he has a similar reaction to deep mud or erm road markings!). Honestly was the best thing I could have done for him (we persevered for about 4or 5 months with remedial shoeing but he kept having periods of lameness and he was a nightmare to shoe) My vet still can't believe that he's sound without bute as they thought his fate would be to end up in light work on long term bute. We hack, school, jump small fences (he has the scope to go bigger... I don't!), hunt, do TREC and we're currently in training for a 40 odd mile ride over 3 days later in the year.
 
Faracat said:
It is hard. I went through several vets and got a new farrier too. Once I had a vet and farrier who were positive, I got them both out together. The shoe removal was done in two stages. 1st the hooves were trimmed and she was reshod with a much better hoof balance and heel support (she had long toes and under-run heels). The next time just the farrier came and he removed the shoes.

I was very careful and kept her on comfortable surfaces, then started short walks in hand, again on comfortable surfaces. She progressed well and as soon as she was doing a reasonable amount of walking on smooth tarmac, her hoof shape just got better and better. I'm not ashamed to say that to start with I actually swept the road with a broom to get rid of stones that were on top of the tarmac. I wanted to set her up for success.
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Re the road sweeping I joked about doing this on many occasions but never actually did it. I admire your dedication!
 
It's a very quiet lane so no-one saw me!

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I am 12 weeks in to barefoot rehab with my gelding after he was diagnosed by MRI with navicular bursitis, collateral ligament damage and a tear on the DDFT. Prognosis was very guarded and I was told we were probably looking at the end of his competition career (BD). We did a month with a bar shoe and then with the support of my own vet took it off and went barefoot. I was going to send him to Rockley but decided to try rehabbing him myself as there was a wait list of 8 to 10 weeks.
He's walking out sound, in fact his walk is far better than before he went lame as he never really stretched out fully over his topline. We are back at my vets on Friday to review progress and I'm hoping the outcome will be the ok to start ridden work.
 
I just don't understand, despite all the evidence, people still shoe navicular. The very act of shoeing is causing it in the first place. Take the shoes off, go barefoot, contact rockley.
 
Faracat said:
Ha, my old farrier said the same about my mare. She was sound as soon as the shoes came off and has been sound and BF for several years now.
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My farrier refuses to shoe my bf horses especially my navicular one as he is so well.

One lot of steroids and tildren and he has been fine. He is nine this year.
 
Puddleduck- top line right? For the first time in his life aged 17 my horse has something that resembles top line and I wouldn't even say he looks like he's striding out that much, but must be more than before.

OP I can only echo what others have said. My boy spent 12 weeks at Rockley last year and is much better than before. Still don't know enough but I'm getting there.
 
Thanks everyone. I just want her to be comfortable and enjoy life. You're all right, it does make sense and the success stories are amazing. I'll contact Nic and get some more information. Thankyou for your advice.
 
You're welcome! Well done for listening to your horse. The difference you notice going down hill is because navicular is just a cover all term for 'pain in the back half of the foot'. Going down hill, she's putting all her weight into the back half of her foot.

Honestly, if your mare is only ten and there is nothing serious on the MRI, she could be sound for another fifteen or even twenty years.

But if she is a very good doer, I would recommend that you test her for EMS, and Cushings while you are at it, because they play havoc with feet.
 
I'm another one with a barefoot navicular rehab who went to Rockley. You've had lots of good advice but I just wanted to add that Nic does need the vet's permission (or referral really, but as most vets are unaware / unsure about barefoot rehab it's usually not a proactive referral). She is well-used to talking with sceptical vets and has a vet info pack that she shares with them.
 
Puddleduck said:
I am 12 weeks in to barefoot rehab with my gelding after he was diagnosed by MRI with navicular bursitis, collateral ligament damage and a tear on the DDFT. Prognosis was very guarded and I was told we were probably looking at the end of his competition career (BD). We did a month with a bar shoe and then with the support of my own vet took it off and went barefoot. I was going to send him to Rockley but decided to try rehabbing him myself as there was a wait list of 8 to 10 weeks.
He's walking out sound, in fact his walk is far better than before he went lame as he never really stretched out fully over his topline. We are back at my vets on Friday to review progress and I'm hoping the outcome will be the ok to start ridden work.
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Puddleduck, that sounds good. Some of these horses don't come sound until they start working. For me, if he's sound walked out in hand for an hour, then he's ready to start ridden walk work whatever your vets say.
 
I have nothing to add that hasn't been said, but I am another who went against vet and farrier advice and took the shoes off my mare. A year on she is sound and back in work :).
 
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