Potential loan horse having lameness issues

[Jericho]

I would be grateful of some advice please.... The bare facts are that my daughter has been offered a loan horse who is an experienced Novice eventer at the end of the season when his owner goes off to uni. Since the beginning of the year she has been riding the horse about once a month to get used to him and make sure it was a good match and he is a nice talented horse and will teach her lots but he is quirky and has some issues of trust and has a history of ulcers which we were confident that we could manage him for. His owner is absolutely a lovely girl and has been terrific with my daughter and clearly loves her boy (and will never sell him though tbh I think he would be tricky to sell) and wanted to find him a home whilst she was away studying. I was happy to cope with the quirks and issues as he is a super horse to jump. However there has been the odd lameness issue over the last few months, just little accidents, days off etc and then recently he did something in the field and has been to the vets to be scanned and full lameness work up and it was inconclusive - clean legs but something gone on in his hips BUT vets according to his owner hopeful all can be sorted. I am now at the point where I am feeling a little worried about taking on this horse - as much as my daughter likes him because I feel he is going to be a walking vets bill and a difficult chap as well. He will be my daughters only horse, she loves competing and hoping to do well so has high hopes for the combination and we probably couldn't afford to buy a horse of his calibre so it did seem amazingly lucky that my daughter was offered the ride, however with all his quirks (besides the lameness) I would not buy him if I had the money. We are lucky enough to keep our horses at home so usually any horse we have has to be friendly and trustworthy and easy to handle (he isn't but again talented and that was the sacrifice...). We do not have an endless supply of money nor the time to keep lots of horses. Help what do I do?

 

[Michen]

I think you need to be realistic. Experienced novice eventers for loan are like hens teeth, so if you don’t have the funds to buy one (and even if you do- nothing to say that won’t go wrong. Horses are horses) your best option is to take on the loan.

I would just make it clear what is and isn’t expected for you to pay. Anything pre existing before the loan etc etc, and make it clear under what terms he can be sent back (aka not fit for purpose for longer than a month or so)

Edited to add just re read your post, I wouldn’t be taking him on or his vet bills until he was back out competing and “fixed” from whatever this hip issue is... sorry I read it as being a historical issue.

 

[Jericho]

I think you need to be realistic. Experienced novice eventers for loan are like hens teeth, so if you don’t have the funds to buy one (and even if you do- nothing to say that won’t go wrong. Horses are horses) your best option is to take on the loan.

I would just make it clear what is and isn’t expected for you to pay. Anything pre existing before the loan etc etc, and make it clear under what terms he can be sent back (aka not fit for purpose for longer than a month or so)

Edited to add just re read your post, I wouldn’t be taking him on or his vet bills until he was back out competing and “fixed” from whatever this hip issue is... sorry I read it as being a historical issue.

Thanks Michen for your advice, yes this lameness has only just happened and is significant enough to mean that he won't be competed for the rest of the season. Can things like that be incorporated that into a loan agreement in that if he goes lame (as in a more significant lameness rather than just a twinge etc) for a certain amount of time we can hand him back? I would feel terrible doing that as not sure what his owner would do if she is away but if that is the norm with loans / being given a ride then I would feel happier that we wouldn't be being unreasonable. His fit for purpose would be most definitely be able to compete at Novice level eventing but I am already feeling that he isn't going to stay sound for long even if this hip issues resolves

 

[Michen]

Thanks Michen for your advice, yes this lameness has only just happened and is significant enough to mean that he won't be competed for the rest of the season. Can things like that be incorporated that into a loan agreement in that if he goes lame (as in a more significant lameness rather than just a twinge etc) for a certain amount of time we can hand him back? I would feel terrible doing that as not sure what his owner would do if she is away but if that is the norm with loans / being given a ride then I would feel happier that we wouldn't be being unreasonable. His fit for purpose would be most definitely be able to compete at Novice level eventing but I am already feeling that he isn't going to stay sound for long even if this hip issues resolves

Absolutely you can. That's one of the benefits of loaning. I believe it's even in the BHS loan agreement template as standard. Harsh, but it's the owners problem- not yours- and if you own a horse out on loan you have to be prepared that it may get sent back and have a plan in place.

If he's written off for the rest of the reason it must be fairly significant, I'd be reluctant to take on the cost of continued vet bills/physio etc for this issue to get him back up and running so I'd want that covered by the owner even if I was prepared to do the actual rehab.

Also, be prepared that whilst she may be away, plans can change and she may want him back. So it's possible you won't get the benefit of a horse to event this season and may put in hard work over winter only to not reap the rewards anyway.

There's risks with loaning from both sides, and benefits/negatives for both parties too. FWIW I loaned my last horse and my relationship with his owner couldn't have been better, we lost him in the most tragic circumstances and she was a total pillar of support, we were for each other really, so it can work very well.

 

[ycbm]

Great advice from Michen above.

I would want a definitive diagnosis of the 'hip problem'. Lamenesses high in the leg or involving the back are, in my experience, very difficult to fix and often recur.

You say gut feel is that he is going to be walking vet bill. I would walk away I'm afraid.


..

 

[AmyMay]

I’d walk away too.

But if you do decide to go ahead put in writing as part of the agreement that any pre existing conditions will be covered by the owners.

 

[Jericho]

I’d walk away too.

But if you do decide to go ahead put in writing as part of the agreement that any pre existing conditions will be covered by the owners.

Thank you for your honest advice. I am terrible at letting people down as i know the girl will be heart broken if we don't have him. Any advice on how we tell her?

 

[Michen]

Thank you for your honest advice. I am terrible at letting people down as i know the girl will be heart broken if we don't have him. Any advice on how we tell her?

You tell her the truth, that you are concerned re mounting costs etc. She may come back to you with a good offer re vet bills/rehab etc etc in order to secure him a good home and that may then be something you can consider.

The thing is, any horse has the potential to go wrong. Sometimes it's actually better the devil you know and this horse may require added costs in the form of maintenance etc but might still be good for the job if you can finance that. Only you know what you can/can't stretch too.

It does sound like you have made up your mind though, and if you don't want to "negotiate" loan terms with the owner then I'd simply say that you are looking for a horse your daughter can get out with this season- simple.

 

[AmyMay]

Thank you for your honest advice. I am terrible at letting people down as i know the girl will be heart broken if we don't have him. Any advice on how we tell her?

I think you just have to be honest about your concerns. It’s very unlikely that the owner won’t understand, given the circumstances.

 

[ihatework]

Honestly - a proven novice event on loan .... I’d fully expect to be paying out on vet management. Sorry.

If you aren’t able to find that then please just tell the owner now so they have time to find another rider.

 

[ycbm]

Right at the moment , though, the only thing that's proven about it is that it has been plagued with lameness this season and that now, before the end of June, it has injury that has put it out of competition for the rest of the season with no guarantee that it will even come sound for next March, nine months away.

If it was a sound horse competing now or with a definitive diagnosis and a good prognosis of being back online for the autumn events, I'd agree with you IHW. But it's a hell of a risk to take for a horse that's not even a nice person to have around the yard.

 

[Jericho]

Honestly - a proven novice event on loan .... I’d fully expect to be paying out on vet management. Sorry.

If you aren’t able to find that then please just tell the owner now so they have time to find another rider.

But he is not sound currently and is off for the rest of the season meaning it may cost thousands in vet bills as may not be insureable unless owner continues to pay for any ongoing vet bills. Yes he is good Novice horse but only good if he can do his job however harsh that may sound.

 

[ihatework]

But he is not sound currently and is off for the rest of the season meaning it may cost thousands in vet bills as may not be insureable unless owner continues to pay for any ongoing vet bills. Yes he is good Novice horse but only good if he can do his job however harsh that may sound.

Sorry nowhere in your OP did you say the horse was written of for the rest of the season 🤷‍♀️ That changes things then doesn’t it. Look for something else and if it doesn’t materialise then maybe the horse will be right in time for next season.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry nowhere in your OP did you say the horse was written of for the rest of the season 🤷‍♀️ That changes things then doesn’t it. Look for something else and if it doesn’t materialise then maybe the horse will be right in time for next season.

I wouldn't normally respond to this but you've gone to the trouble of finding a cute emoticon that suggests you are blaming the OP for your reply, making your 'sorry' completely void. It was in the second post she made, post number three, before you made your reply.

Moral to all of us, and it's a mistake I've made more than once, read the whole story first when it's a short new thread 😋
..

 

[ihatework]

I wouldn't normally respond to this but you've gone to the trouble of finding a cute emoticon that suggests you are blaming the OP for your reply, making your 'sorry' completely void. It was in the second post she made, post number three, before you made your reply.

Moral to all of us, and it's a mistake I've made more than once, read the whole story first when it's a short new thread 😋
..

True (and I wasnt voiding a sorry, because I wasn’t sorry for my comment). Another moral (which again we have probably done at some point) is out all relevant info in the OP, because that is the post most people are likely to read.

OP, hope you get something sorted. The only thing I would say is keep your expectations realistic of what you will likely need to manage for a competition horse on loan. Fair enough in this case you thought that compromise was stable behaviour.

 

[twiggy2]

I would want to speak to the vet before making any decisions.
Depending on what the vet says about the horse being likely to return to full competition level I would then speak to the owner about vet bills and what happens if the horse cannot do the job you have him for.
Also remember that if the horse is quirky when in full work he may be a real handful when returning to work-will you all be happy to handle and ride him if he is more difficult?
Experienced novice eventer that young riders can get on can in my experience be as quirky as they like and they will still sell for big money though so I would take him if the vet says his prognosis is good and you can set up an agreement you are happy with regards vets bills etc.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Mmmm this is a difficult one:

On the one hand there's the old saying "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" - on the other you could well be taking on a walking vets bill and a potential field-ornament.

I'd be inclined to be cautious: the first step I think I'd take would be to ask to see recent vet's treatment records and sit down and have a good think about it.

Normally, when one takes a horse on loan, the protocol is for the person taking the horse on loan to pay all normal expenses such as vets fees, however if there is already a known veterinary issue then you might be perfectly justified in making that an "exclusion" for which you will not be held liable. The problem then arises if there is a change or worsening of the condition, and whether you should be help liable for that.

I'd be inclined - if you are serious about taking this horse on - to get it 5* vetted. You and owner could perhaps agree to share the costs?? And take things from there. Of course, no vet will be able to give you a prediction of whether the lameness will re-surface, or when/if, but at least you'd have something to go on.

But TBH, yes whilst this may be a "gift horse" and yes appreciating that you daughter would love the chance: she's gonna get terribly frustrated if everything goes wrong and all you've got is a field ornament.

But, as others have said, if you've taken it on with a written agreement that you won't be liable for vets fees for the lameness, at that point you'd hand it back to the owner.

However: I just wonder whether it mightn't be better to walk away from this one??? Difficult decision yep, but mebbe better in the long run?

 

[Goldenstar]

The loan has not started the horse is lame I am not sure what the question is really
A lame novice eventer is use to OP so she needs to move on .

 

[Leandy]

Personally i would walk away and find another solution for your daughter to ride. You could say you will have him once he is sound and competing again and then be clear that you can't afford a walking vets bill and that you can, and very likely would, terminate the loan and send him back if he is no longer up to the work you want to do with him for a period longer than say a month. This is the point of a loan, if it doesn't work you send it back. A soundness issue doesn't usually need expensive emergency vet treatment so you will have time to consider whether it is worth incurring expensive investigation/treatment etc for a horse which, at the end of the day, is not yours. If you aren't happy to then the loan can be terminated.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Thanks Michen for your advice, yes this lameness has only just happened and is significant enough to mean that he won't be competed for the rest of the season. Can things like that be incorporated that into a loan agreement in that if he goes lame (as in a more significant lameness rather than just a twinge etc) for a certain amount of time we can hand him back? I would feel terrible doing that as not sure what his owner would do if she is away but if that is the norm with loans / being given a ride then I would feel happier that we wouldn't be being unreasonable. His fit for purpose would be most definitely be able to compete at Novice level eventing but I am already feeling that he isn't going to stay sound for long even if this hip issues resolves

The op says he won't be competing this season due to lameness in this post

 

[VRIN]

Why don't you talk to the owner and discuss your worries and concerns?

 

[MissFliss]

She might be very keen to have you loan him as your daughter knows the horse and obviously cares about him. If I was the owner I’d be more bothered about that than the money so I’d definitely be saying I would cover all vets bills so you might find if you explain your concerns she’ll offer to keep paying vets fees. Realistically she’s going to struggle to find someone to take on something that may require a reasonable amount of rehab, her alternative might be paying for rehab livery which would be significantly more expensive for her. If the horse was mine I’d be overjoyed you were still going to take him lame, it wouldn’t cross my mind to ask you to cover vets bills in that particular situation.

 

[tankgirl1]

Is he insured?

 

[Theocat]

Even if the owner covers vet bills, livery, feed, forage, feet and insurance add up to quite a lot per month to be forking out for someone else's lame horse that you can't ride.

I would want a sound horse at the start of the loan, a guarantee that the owner pays for vet costs relating to the lameness, and that the horse is returned if it lasts longer than a month.

If the horse, having been off for the season, still isn't right and in work when the loan starts, it would be madness to take it on.