Potential new horse- how much should i pay??

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OiskiPoiski

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To try and keep things short and sweet, I have been keeping my eye out for a new dressage prospect for a while, and then a stud reduction 'sale' crossed my path the other day from a very well respected stud, so of course i jumped at the chance to go and have a look.

I did find the perfect little gentleman for me- he is ideal in age, height, temperament, experience etc.

After vetting today, it is apparent that he has an old injury to a hind fetlock that has left the tendon a little thick- so he is a little unlevel behind in walk at times. This will be the first project youngster I have had to myself, and for the money I had available, I was never going to be able to afford a world beater- but he is fantastically bred and moves well in trot and canter. the vet has said he wont make an eventer and he wouldn't do the highest degrees of collection well, but he doesnt expect the old injury to get any worse, or go away completely.

He is 4 years old, with plenty of growing left to do, has only been back in work from being turned away for a month or so, and hasnt had any work done to strengthen the back leg at all- so there is a chance this will improve it.


My vet will review the vetting tomorrow for a second opinion, but in the meanwhile thought I would gather opinion here!

Should I opt out, but face not getting such a well bred or conformationally correct youngster for potentially a very long time, and having to settle for something perhaps not so tailored to my taste (in terms of ability, temperament, etc)

Or

Get the second opinion, and if my vet reckons it isnt a serious issue, but one that will be there, offer a substantially reduced price and accept he probably wont go as far as he might have had a chance to, and might not be so easy to sell, assuming the leg doesnt strengthen.


Im in two minds. He is the perfect youngster, so well mannered and well trained and very trainable himself, and still with fair potential- particularly in his other 2 gaits (although obviously there is a risk that with collected work or extended work issues could arise, be it permanenet or temporary).

I dont think i could ever afford a sound horse to his equivalent, so im wondering whether to offer a lot less and take the risk, and hope that careful training can help at least partially solve the problem?
 
Sorry, I should have mentioned-

He isnt sure what injury, it seems to be just a field injury that has left thickening on the back of the tendon on the left hind, and what appears as a windgall- obv also hindering his showing potential.

As I mentioned, the only evidence of it now from a spectators point of view is occasionally shortening of the stride on that limb- though no work has been done to strengthen it- and the windgall-like swelling.

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TBH it doesn't matter a fig what his breeding is as you cannot breed from him. If he is exactly what you want and you are happy not to go far then go for it.

If however you want to compete then personally I would say stay clear. Having problems so young will only get worse as there will always be a weakness there.
 
More questions...i'm off out now but will be back later. Have you had the joint x-rayed from different angles/the tendon ultrasounded?
How did it react to flexion tests?
 
I only mention breeding in terms of his movement and potential- he still shows evidence of being quite correct and flashy in the way he moves, and is quite desirable. Certainly not planning to try and breed from a gelding- unless cloning becomes a cheap thing to do!

But in seriousness, your comment is exactly what part of my brain is trying to ignore, the fact that he wont go far. I'm only weighing it up against the fact that i couldnt afford a horse as well put together as he at the moment or even in a year's time, i could only afford the 'average' horse. The question seems to be do i buy the average horse and not go far, or the weak horse and not go far? In terms of selling, obviously the average horse- but my intention wasnt to sell, and there is the possibility of improvement to his movement...


(there i go, being bias in his favour again!)
 
My friend had a very similar problem, but she had already had the horse on trial and was attached. He had a thickened tendon infront. The seller had the tendon scanned to checek for damage. He never had any problems, but it was niticable in walk. However she obviously had a problem when she sold him. Don't forget that if you ever do he will be hard to sell.
I think you would be better off walking away and waiting for something that is 100% sound. A less well bred horse that is capable of the task would be better.
Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear, but there are so many things that can go wrong I would avoid an obvious problem
 
I do know good phyios and the like that would give me a good idea, yes- but the injury is something the place are *seemingly* unaware of, they knew he was a little weak but did not know why. For the price i would be able to get him at, I dont think i would go down the ultrasound route, I wish i had the money but for what is essentially a cheap horse, I dont want to make the buying expensive with x rays and ultrasounds, as much as i would like to and as much as i would like a clearer idea of what is going on in there.


I haven't seen the vetting report yet, as i wasnt at the vetting, but it is being reviewed by my vet tomorrow so will hopefully have a better idea!

The vet that vetted him said , to put it simply, that he wont go 3 day eventing, he wont jump 5' and he wont go grand prix, but theres no reason for him to not be fine at the rest. So given i couldnt have afforded a horse that could do these things anyway, do i pick a lesser quality horse to do the job, who might not be so sound a temperament, or pick the horse that might need strengthening/careful attention in order to achieve it, but possibly achieve it easier and whilst having an 'easier' time of it, if you know what i mean?
 
Haha, no its definitely not what i want to hear but we cant always have it our way! I am grateful for your opinion
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Did she go on to compete that horse?
 
Eeek walk away! Why buy a 4 year old that is technically unsound!

For what its worth my older mare has injured her tendon in the pastern area - showed up as windgalls, the annular ligament problem, but all that was covering up damage to the SDFT. I want a comprehensive scan of the area if it was me before even considering it, as my mare whilst having a serious injury looks OK in walk! Try to work her and she's lame and whilst I'm now hoping to get her back for hacking, she will never again compete in dressage or be able to school a lot in circles etc.

Walk away!
 
If my vet said that he would do the job I would want him to do then I would buy him, at the end of the day good horses are hard to find. Just remember that you'll always have the 'what if' he goes lame etc
But tbh all i do with mine is hacking and low level shows etc, speak to your vet tomorrow and tell him exactly what your expecting this horse to do and see what he says? x
 
If this was picked up in the vetting it won't be covered in your insurance so if anything did happen at a later date then it would have to come out of your own pocket.

Maybe I mis-read but did you say you wanted to do dressage? I know rock all about dressage but I would have thought a horse that was un-level/lame/short behind would seriously hinder your score. If you're going to be on livery unless you find the Carlsberg Livery Yard then if you're seen to be riding/competing a "lame" horse then you will be subject to yard gossip... Not that that should influence your decision but it would undoubtly influence your enjoyment of your horse.

Personally I'd let it be. Your bias is that "he might get better with strengthening work"; but what if he doesn't? What if he can't cope with work and breaks down. It's my opinion that you take on a big enough risk when you buy a sound horse that has passed a vetting so I wouldn't want to start out with a problem.

I'm sure the right horse for you is out there, I'm afraid I would leave this one be unless you DID scan it and find out exactly what was going on in there and have some sort of guarantee that he would come sound/level.

Sorry.
 
If you really like this horse, you're not going to afford one that could go further and the injury is not going to get any worse or cause him pain in the future, then why not go for it?

You need to be realistic about your ambitions though and whether you will resent him "holding you back" in a few years time if you genuinely want to go further and could have another horse that will go as far as you want to.

Without intending to sound too mean, your ability is something you have to consider as well. Do you have the ability to go further than he would allow, particularly on a less talented, natural horse? If not then there's no problem. I only say this as I have a lovely but decidedly middle of the road horse. This suits me as I would never go far, even on Tamarillo or Toytown!
 
I wouldn't buy him, sorry.
If he's showing lame/unlevel/short striding behind now and he's in barely any work I would be very worried about how much it worse it would get when you start working him harder.
I'd also be concerned about the stud not knowing what happened to it, I appreciate that they may never have noticed it, but i would be suspicious that they were hiding the full extent of it from me (although I'm not saying thats the case).
You say you couldn't afford another horse of his calibre, which again suggests to me that there is a reason for him to be so cheap. He certainly won't be a good cheap buy if you end up being eliminated or are constantly being marked down for his 'unlevelness' even if it is just in the walk.
However, if I was determined to buy him (it sounds like you really like him) I'd be making an offer that was so low it wouldn't matter if I had to retire him in 6 months time (or 6 years, who knows) and stare out of the window at him as a pasture pet!
 
I just have one comment to make:

Do not buy a known problem in legs/tendons of any kind, it will only lead to expense and heart ache in the future. Its bad enough if something arrives after you have bought the horse, but to buy it knowing that there is something is foolish.

This comes from a great deal of heart ache in the last few years. I lost my 10 year old showjumper to navicular (he was bought with grade 1 xrays and had 3 full vettings before we bought him). I also have a Small Tour dressage horse off for months cos he has damaged his tendon.

There are LITERALLY HUNDREDS of nice little gentlemen for sale in the UK, take your time and look around, rather than jump in head first at the first few you see.
 
I know conformation is really important in Dressage but it is by no means the be all and end all however soundness is. I would go for the "average" horses and work your butt off to train it to as high a level as possible.

Dressage is all from the back end and the quarters have to be super strong to carry all the weight i wouldn’t risk it breaking down part way through training and loosing all that work.

From what you have said I think this horse would be better suited to the showing ring if it is that flashing and well put together.

Sorry but i wouldn’t buy it, Dressage is very very hard on a horses body and any weaknesses will be highlighted.
 
I don't know how 'good' this horse could be - or what he'd be worth without the injury.

BUT:

If one of my homebreds had this type of old injury (or ANYTHING that would look 'suspect' at vetting) I would ONLY discount it heavily if I knew it would not stand up to serious work. If the problem was trivial, I would have x-ray and scans done AND a vet report before I sold it - and make them available to the potential buyer and the buyer's vet.

In that case: with a horse who was potentially worth £6,000 with NO issues, if vet evidence suggested it shouldn't be a problem for low level competition, I'd discount him to £4,500. If vet evidence suggested he was likely to be a happy hacker only, I'd discount him to £2,500 or less (assuming his temperament/behaviour made him suitable as a happy hacker.

IF - on the other hand - the horse was a SERIOUS prospect - worth perhaps £10,000 plus sound, then if the evidence suggested he wouldn't stand up to higher level competition you would need to discount him much more. Down as low as £2,500 if happy hacker status.

So be VERY aware that if the horse has been discounted WELL below his value without the issue, it is almost certainly because the seller KNOWS he won't stand up to work.

Let's s
 
I would say, especially as its at the back of the leg (if its at the front they only need 46% functionality in the extensor compartment to be sound according to several vets) and you can't afford to double check how deep the damage is I would not be prepared to take the risk i'm afraid.
Sorry it's not what you want to hear.
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Wow, I am over whelmed by the response I have received from everyone- and very grateful, too. Everything that has been said I thought over while I was at the yard, and when it came down to it, I think I would be offering the same advice to someone in my position. I owe it to myself to get a sound horse, at the very least!

He is going to be a no - I will wait for the next stud reduction, sale, diamond in the rough or otherwise I think, it makes much more sense.

I'm very grateful you all woke me up to what I think I knew deep down- the circumstances that led to me trying him seemed too good to be true, I wanted it to be a bit of a fairy tale story and it led me down the path a bit. Oh well! Will keep the search up!

I do wonder if they will sell him now- Im a bit miffed as when i called back to say I am unsure and getting the vetting reviewed, the secretary talked about the leg and said
''It always seemed better after the physio had been''...
..should I not have been told about this prior to seeing him?! typical!
 
At least the fact that they clearly knew about the injury and hadn't mentioned it should reassure you that you are doing the right thing by not buying him- all the what if's in those situations are nightmare though aren't they?!
You should start a post with what you're looking for in your horse shopping - someone here might know of one for you?
 
Very much a nightmare! I never thought to start a post- I'm not in a huge rush to buy, generally just keeping an eye out where ever i go. This one was only a rush as if he had been sound, he would have gone in an instant. but then again, if he had been sound, he would probably have been out of my price range! Ah well. May give the posting idea a go
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I recently had a four year old vetted which turned out to have low grade suspensory ligament damage but he didnt fail the vet. My vet just told me to think about the risk involved.
I have walked away. I think buying horses is risky enough with adding anymore to it.
My mum put it really well "Think about all the work a youngster creates and with the potential of getting nothing back if the damage gets worse".
I advise you to do the same and walk away.
I am pleased to say I have found another lovely youngster (yet to be vetted) only 4 days after the first failed the vet. Hopefully you will do the same.
 
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