Potential purchase part II

A

anna22

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 May 2011
Messages
577
Location
Cheshire
Visit site
Today I organised to go back and spend some time with the baby Limmerick gelding.
On arrival, the owner wasn't around, it was just the 'rider' who parted company with him last time... he had been turned out since a I was last there and hadn't been touched as a few newbies had arrived that were taking up time. So at least he'd been chilling with his buddies.
Went off to the field and he was in a mixed group of about 7 horses/ponies, but instantly walked over to see us - so seems easy to catch. A few pauses on leaving the field minus buddies but happy once on his way.
On thing I noticed last time was he seemed apparently unaware of anyone or anything on the ground and would happily pull/walk into whatever was there. Got him to the yard and I asked if I could use the school and do some groundwork with him, yes - so off we tootled and 'rider' got on with her jobs.

Spent 10mins teaching baby horse not to walk on top of me or over me and not to drag me or need to be dragged, and to keep his attention on me. :roll eyes: Considering there was a herd of excitable ponies and what sounded like a stock-car rally nearby he got the idea pretty quickly.
Then we moved onto some 'free schooling', attention on me = no pressure, wandering attention = pressure and work. I reckon again it took him about 10mins to get this, and about 5 more minutes to understand direction changes and couple it all together with following me and staying attentive regardless of moving ponies/lorries arriving and horses leaving/stock car chaos.
To finish I decided to see just how 'sensitive' he was, and using the lunge whip flicked the string over his back/around his legs/up his neck - all fine, a little apprehensive at first on the LHS but fine. I pushed my luck and tried to introduce noise into the equation by cracking the whip next to me... but this was a little much and he was a tad unnerved for a couple of mins, he did cotton on in the end and stood looking suspiciously at me, will have to work on the desensitising part.
To finish our little groundwork session I did a few more leading exercises to make sure he still realised i wasn't there for his inconvenience and therefore should be barged into... good baby horse still understood. :) One thing that I noticed again was the tightness in his back, will get vet to check this definitely. Fingers crossed it's just tightness through inappropriate riding. I think he's been 'held' in a on-the-bit position for the purpose of photos etc and hasn't yet worked through his back properly.

Took him out of school and went off to find 'rider' and enquire about a quick 5 min hack along the main road at the end of the lane. Which was met with "he hasn't been sat on for 2 days... are you sure??" To which I replied yes, and would she mind bringing a bombproof horse to accompany us - starting to think that maybe the behaviour at my first visit had a) scared the beegeebus out of her or b) wasn't so unusual.

Tacked up fine, lovely and compliant, took him into the school to utilise mounting block - decided to play it safe and place weight in stirrup and wait, pat pony, lean over saddle, pat pony, weight in stirrup, lean over and pat opposite sit, pat baby pony - swing leg over and carefully lowered myself into the saddle. Little love just stood there with a lovely calm face on.
Clicked my tongue and he started wandering round, played with lateral flexion which again didn't take very long for him to realise if he stood still and relaxed, I let go. At this point the owner turned up and offer "aww, he's being a good boy today" :confused: maybe baby horse isn't as good as everyone first suggested...
'Rider' brings out 'bombproof' horse, who was doing a fantastic impression of a ticking-timebomb. Thankfully baby horse was entirely unaware, and went on a short hack down a busy main road and through a housing estate with gardeners etc all out, and didn't spook at a thing... he gawped at plenty but I never had to take up a contact and left him to it. :D

So, I am going to give the little man the benefit of the doubt and take him on trial. I have told 'rider' that I am happy for them to do nothing with him, and I will try and go again this week with a view to picking him up a week on wednesday. ;)
I'm quite excited! I just hope he continues to respond well to me and passes his vetting! Mammoth post guys, thanks for reading. I have copious amounts of chocolate still from easter on offer! :)
 
I am glad I have found your update. That sounds really positive! I hope the vetting goes well. And I can't wait to see pictures :)
 
Fides said:
I am glad I have found your update. That sounds really positive! I hope the vetting goes well. And I can't wait to see pictures :)
Click to expand...

Thanks :) quite excited now. I will get photos when he comes next week, he's not much to look at at the moment but hopefully he'll be a stunner with time.
 
just be careful! If nobody wants to ride him at his current home there may be a reason. Although you sound like you are workng all the right ways.
 
SusieT said:
just be careful! If nobody wants to ride him at his current home there may be a reason. Although you sound like you are workng all the right ways.
Click to expand...

That, a bit. Although a fresh start with someone being careful might be all he needs and you'll never see what the problem was. I bought a horse I found out afterwards stood up frequently. He literally never showed the behaviour with me other than in the XC box. His sellers were experienced horse people but I guess there was enough different about our program that we didn't push that button. He sounds a very cool young horse from your description so hopefully you are on to a winner.

Just one note about "desensitisation" (I find this a bit of a complicated conversation as, for a competition horse, you really want "selectively sensitive" and "productively reactive" which isn't quite the same as the western style/NH practice) - I would expect any horse I've trained to react to the "pop" of the longe whip because it's a driving aid and one I would have worked to get them to respect, if they didn't naturally. Then holding the horse in place while I used the driving aid would, naturally, produce tension. I would expect to desensitise to all other sorts of noises but, rather like the click of the tongue, not that one and I certainly wouldn't judge a horse as overreactive if it did respond.
 
TarrSteps said:
That, a bit. Although a fresh start with someone being careful might be all he needs and you'll never see what the problem was. I bought a horse I found out afterwards stood up frequently. He literally never showed the behaviour with me other than in the XC box. His sellers were experienced horse people but I guess there was enough different about our program that we didn't push that button. He sounds a very cool young horse from your description so hopefully you are on to a winner.

Just one note about "desensitisation" (I find this a bit of a complicated conversation as, for a competition horse, you really want "selectively sensitive" and "productively reactive" which isn't quite the same as the western style/NH practice) - I would expect any horse I've trained to react to the "pop" of the longe whip because it's a driving aid and one I would have worked to get them to respect, if they didn't naturally. Then holding the horse in place while I used the driving aid would, naturally, produce tension. I would expect to desensitise to all other sorts of noises but, rather like the click of the tongue, not that one and I certainly wouldn't judge a horse as overreactive if it did respond.
Click to expand...

This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately (the desensitisation part) as I've been backing one of my youngsters. I mainly showjump competitively and I need to maintain a degree of 'suspicion' (not sure that's the right word) so that my horse has the desire not to touch the poles, so I'm not sure desensitisation, too much, is the way to go. I'm so glad you wrote this TS as I've been thinking it and even wrote a post but found it hard to express in a way that made sense! Probably it still doesn't! But thanks anyway :)
 
Great to hear that you are obviously taken with him, and I hope all goes well with the trial, though do be careful and keep us updated.
 
I would get him vetted ASAP and definitely before you take him away. Not sure from your post if that is the way you are doing it. The last thing you need is to fall in love with him and then him fail the vet, and if he fails at their place no blame can be out on you for him failing.
 
dieseldog said:
I would get him vetted ASAP and definitely before you take him away. Not sure from your post if that is the way you are doing it. The last thing you need is to fall in love with him and then him fail the vet, and if he fails at their place no blame can be out on you for him failing.
Click to expand...

I hadn't thought about this either, I may organise a vetting on the day I collect him for the trial... Then he can either go back straight away or if he passes then I can crack on with the trial. Thanks :)

TarrSteps said:
Just one note about "desensitisation" (I find this a bit of a complicated conversation as, for a competition horse, you really want "selectively sensitive" and "productively reactive" which isn't quite the same as the western style/NH practice) - I would expect any horse I've trained to react to the "pop" of the longe whip because it's a driving aid and one I would have worked to get them to respect, if they didn't naturally. Then holding the horse in place while I used the driving aid would, naturally, produce tension. I would expect to desensitise to all other sorts of noises but, rather like the click of the tongue, not that one and I certainly wouldn't judge a horse as overreactive if it did respond.
Click to expand...

True... I probably need to rethink my methods on that one. Thank you :)

I'll be honest, having had a chat with my OH last night I am having reservations now :( My OH told me I rush into things and don't think things through properly first (not quite that blunt but that's what he was intimating.)

So now I'm having a confidence crisis and a major case of the 'pre-event' nerves. Am I capable of doing this properly? Am I rushing into it? As above... if they're reluctant now to do much with him is he good? I have never for a second felt unsafe or nervous on him, he just doesn't give me that feel. But is that me thinking with my heart and not my head??
I'm really in quandary now. He's the right size, breeding, age and look of horse I want, within my price range...

Feel free to slap me and tell me I'm being stupid. I probably need it!
 
Stop worrying! You have a 2 week trial and if he isn't right you can send him back. You have nothing to lose really x
 
He'd have to be really cheap for me to take a punt on. Signs from the rider/staff are not encouraging, he sounds well practised at the sort of behaviour you witnessed before.
 
He's just a baby, and that type of breeding means they take time. As long as you appreciate that, and let him tell you when he's ready then you should be fine. Do however, take him out on his own whilst on trial. My friends horse was a nightmare on her own. She was out of a ID mare as well, but very quality, which you wouldn't expect from that cross.
 
TheMule said:
He'd have to be really cheap for me to take a punt on. Signs from the rider/staff are not encouraging, he sounds well practised at the sort of behaviour you witnessed before.
Click to expand...

Just as a note to this, the aforementioned standing up horse eventually came to me for half his original asking price after they spent months trying to sell him. And, while the rearing didn't make an appearance, he stayed a tricky horse to manage his whole life. So while I do agree that sometimes a change of scenery and handling can be all a horse, especially a young one, needs (after all, I've spent my life turning things around for horses so I'm going to believe this!) it isn't a guarantee and, if he's struggled in this situation, he's probably not THE most straightforward horse anyway.

As to your competency, only you can really judge. I presume you have experience with youngsters and some sort of support system if you do run into trouble, which is half the battle as you do only gain experience by doing, at the end of the day. And, in this case, you have the opportunity to vet and trial the horse so if it does go wrong you have an out already. As to falling in love with the horse, I see the danger but again, only you can judge. i presume you are going into this with the idea that if the horse is not fit for purpose you will return it but if you (or your OH ;)) is concerned that this might not be the case then, yes, tread carefully.


Foxy1 - there was a series of threads awhile back started/contributed to mostly by PS and myself and Ferdinase about despooking performance horses and I think there were some thoughts on there about books, websites and exercises. It's becoming an area of specialist interest to me, partly because I have a fair amount of experience with western horses and NH work, but also with relatively high powered performance horses. My view is while I can see where the former can bring a lot to the competitive party, there are situations where the goal diverge and the trainer has to give thought to what, exactly, needs to be trained and how, for the individual, it's best to get that done.
 
Fides said:
Stop worrying! You have a 2 week trial and if he isn't right you can send him back. You have nothing to lose really x
Click to expand...

This is what I'm hoping... I am fully prepared to have him vetted and if he fails then send him straight back OR if he passes and is a d*** then send him back, I've had enough bad experiences from other peoples cast off's to last me a lifetime.

TheMule said:
He'd have to be really cheap for me to take a punt on. Signs from the rider/staff are not encouraging, he sounds well practised at the sort of behaviour you witnessed before.
Click to expand...

When I was first there and he had his little episode, there were 3 people watching, he wasn't lunged/did no ground work first, she just plonked straight on... and the 3 people and the rider were all totally aghast, I can't decide whether he's just scared them by behaving that way, or as you say its a regular occurrence. The watchers were completely stunned? But I don't know :(

Can I ask what would you value him at?? Approx, I know you haven't seen him, but he's got good conformation, light footed, moves very nicely, is a darling on the ground/to do and for me 'lovely' to ride?? Out of a graded (probably the wrong word) ISH mare.

cundlegreen said:
He's just a baby, and that type of breeding means they take time. As long as you appreciate that, and let him tell you when he's ready then you should be fine. Do however, take him out on his own whilst on trial. My friends horse was a nightmare on her own. She was out of a ID mare as well, but very quality, which you wouldn't expect from that cross.
Click to expand...

He's from a half and half ISH mare, quality and plenty of blood (which is what I want, a tad less TB but plenty of blood all the same).

TarrSteps said:
Just as a note to this, the aforementioned standing up horse eventually came to me for half his original asking price after they spent months trying to sell him. And, while the rearing didn't make an appearance, he stayed a tricky horse to manage his whole life. So while I do agree that sometimes a change of scenery and handling can be all a horse, especially a young one, needs (after all, I've spent my life turning things around for horses so I'm going to believe this!) it isn't a guarantee and, if he's struggled in this situation, he's probably not THE most straightforward horse anyway.

As to your competency, only you can really judge. I presume you have experience with youngsters and some sort of support system if you do run into trouble, which is half the battle as you do only gain experience by doing, at the end of the day. And, in this case, you have the opportunity to vet and trial the horse so if it does go wrong you have an out already. As to falling in love with the horse, I see the danger but again, only you can judge. i presume you are going into this with the idea that if the horse is not fit for purpose you will return it but if you (or your OH ;)) is concerned that this might not be the case then, yes, tread carefully.
Click to expand...

I can cope with a degree of tricky, to a certain extent my current horse is tricky... but he gets better and better every day and I know he's not 'bad', he's just super sensitive. I have helped bring youngsters on for friends, and retrained a couple of ex-racers (they were very chilled boys though), but I've never had my own youngster. I have a very good trainer, we get on tremendously and she is always available one way or another to help me out (offered a pre-event helpline service from 0530 once :))
Yes i am being realistic, there is no way I am going to buy this horse if he is going to destroy my confidence, or if he fails his vetting.
What do you think he'd be worth TS?

Thanks all... still in quandary, but there is the trial period and I am planning on going and doing a bit with him on wednesday too.
 
When you first posted this thread you were really excited. You say ytthe way the lady plonked herself on his back made him react, if he did that all the time I'm sure she would have been more careful getting on?!
Anyway you have him on trial and you said he gave you a nice feeling to ride, he also hasn't done anything nasty with you. From what you have written I would give him the benefit of doubt. See how the trial goes and give him a fair shot. He could be a sweetie and just a victim of being a young sensitive horse who hasn't had a chance yet of a one to one or any consistency :). If he does cross that line between normal youngster odd nap/buck stuff into what feels dangerous then you can give him back.
My horse whipped round repeatedly when I tried him and tried to run off bucking but despite that I felt like I could handle him.. I felt like I understood him and he is one of the easiest horses I have had! He was just a 4yr old TB who had been ridden by people who didn't own him, didn't care that much and had given in if he ever showed resistance instead of being firm and giving him confidence.
I had my horse on trial and that is why I gave him a shot.
I don't think you have anything to loose at this point?!
 
Firewell said:
When you first posted this thread you were really excited. You say ytthe way the lady plonked herself on his back made him react, if he did that all the time I'm sure she would have been more careful getting on?!
Anyway you have him on trial and you said he gave you a nice feeling to ride, he also hasn't done anything nasty with you. From what you have written I would give him the benefit of doubt. See how the trial goes and give him a fair shot. He could be a sweetie and just a victim of being a young sensitive horse who hasn't had a chance yet of a one to one or any consistency :). If he does cross that line between normal youngster odd nap/buck stuff into what feels dangerous then you can give him back.
My horse whipped round repeatedly when I tried him and tried to run off bucking but despite that I felt like I could handle him.. I felt like I understood him and he is one of the easiest horses I have had! He was just a 4yr old TB who had been ridden by people who didn't own him, didn't care that much and had given in if he ever showed resistance instead of being firm and giving him confidence.
I had my horse on trial and that is why I gave him a shot.
I don't think you have anything to loose at this point?!
Click to expand...

I was really excited, because he didn't make me nervous in spite of what he did... and he began to offer some nice forward work whilst I was on him.
I am quite easily deflated, as you can probably tell! It doesn't take much to knock my confidence sometimes and that is what worries me now as well, I can be a bit of a 'glass half empty' kinda girl sadly :( . I was full of confidence after my first 2 encounters with him, we spent the whole hack the second time on a loose rein whilst the 'bombproof' horse was jig-jogging about.
I guess I will see what happens on wednesday, and if that goes well too then as everyone has said, I have the trial period. I will try and organise a vetting either the day I pick him up at my vets, or the day before if my vet can go to them.
I'll keep you updated, thanks for all the replies :) very much appreciated!
 
Fides said:
Stop worrying! You have a 2 week trial and if he isn't right you can send him back. You have nothing to lose really x
Click to expand...

Sadly now only a week, as it will have been a fortnight between viewing and taking on a trial (subject to vetting) - the seller has reduced the time to one week... as she thought me popping down twice a week to ride was my trial. Should I be worried?? If he plays up on wednesday it'll be a no no anyway, if he doesn't then I guess a week of daily handling etc out of his normal environment should tell me enough. I hope :(
This horse shopping malarky is stressful!
 
anna22 said:
Sadly now only a week, as it will have been a fortnight between viewing and taking on a trial (subject to vetting) - the seller has reduced the time to one week... as she thought me popping down twice a week to ride was my trial. Should I be worried?? If he plays up on wednesday it'll be a no no anyway, if he doesn't then I guess a week of daily handling etc out of his normal environment should tell me enough. I hope :(
This horse shopping malarky is stressful!
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Until I read this I was going to say go for it but reducing the trial to one week makes me a bit suspicious. Why would she think that riding him twice would constitute as half of a two week trial? Most people will view/ride a horse twice before they take it anywhere. That's just normal practice. As a seller, I would've insisted you try the horse a second time in this case due to the behaviour he displayed at your first viewing.

It's starting to sound as if she's nervous about something. If you go for this op, make sure he is vetted before you take him off his current yard.
 
Clare85 said:
Hmmm. Until I read this I was going to say go for it but reducing the trial to one week makes me a bit suspicious. Why would she think that riding him twice would constitute as half of a two week trial? Most people will view/ride a horse twice before they take it anywhere. That's just normal practice. As a seller, I would've insisted you try the horse a second time in this case due to the behaviour he displayed at your first viewing.

It's starting to sound as if she's nervous about something. If you go for this op, make sure he is vetted before you take him off his current yard.
Click to expand...

Hi Clare, it worried me a little but by the time I take him on the week trial (if he passes the vetting...) I will have ridden him 4 times, twice in the school, a hack in company and a small hack alone (to be done on wednesday coming). The standard with the people who I'm dealing with is a viewing/ride, then a 2 week trial at home. Not 4 viewings/rides then a 2 week trial - so I can see her point a little about me having twice the time most people get. As it is I will be having nearly 4 weeks of riding him before I have to make a decision. So I guess I will have ridden him as many times as I probably would in the first week on trial.

Does that sound any better - or am I being too naive??
 
I think reducing the trial is fair enough, they will be losing time to readvertise if you do send him back, if he is going to take time to settle in one week or two will make little difference, if he is difficult he is likely to show this straight away as he will be unsettled, I think letting a 4 year old go on trial is a huge risk and think you are very lucky to have the opportunity to do so, although it sounds as if they are doing him no favours and he will be best off away from there, hope it all works out.
 
be positive said:
I think reducing the trial is fair enough, they will be losing time to readvertise if you do send him back, if he is going to take time to settle in one week or two will make little difference, if he is difficult he is likely to show this straight away as he will be unsettled, I think letting a 4 year old go on trial is a huge risk and think you are very lucky to have the opportunity to do so, although it sounds as if they are doing him no favours and he will be best off away from there, hope it all works out.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I know if I'd gone private then theres no chance I'd have had a trial! So I am thinking I'm lucky. I'll see how wednesday goes and then it'll be vetting time! I'll keep you updated :)
 
anna22 said:
Hi Clare, it worried me a little but by the time I take him on the week trial (if he passes the vetting...) I will have ridden him 4 times, twice in the school, a hack in company and a small hack alone (to be done on wednesday coming). The standard with the people who I'm dealing with is a viewing/ride, then a 2 week trial at home. Not 4 viewings/rides then a 2 week trial - so I can see her point a little about me having twice the time most people get. As it is I will be having nearly 4 weeks of riding him before I have to make a decision. So I guess I will have ridden him as many times as I probably would in the first week on trial.

Does that sound any better - or am I being too naive??
Click to expand...

I think that sounds better - sorry, didn't realise you would've tried him 4 times by the time your trial starts. I think the behaviour you have described so far sounds fairly forgivable for a 4 year old. If he's got a fair amount if blood then you can expect him to be a little hot and he possibly needs handling/managing differently from his current situation. I think the week's trial will show you what you need to know to make a final decision. Let us know how it goes. :)
 
anna22 said:
Thanks, I know if I'd gone private then theres no chance I'd have had a trial! So I am thinking I'm lucky. I'll see how wednesday goes and then it'll be vetting time! I'll keep you updated :)
Click to expand...

I'm confused. Is the horse with a dealer? Where does the owner come in? And why don't they have someone whose job it is to ride? I thought this was a case of someone having a young horse they couldn't handle.

Not that it makes any difference to the actual horse in front of you.
 
TarrSteps said:
I'm confused. Is the horse with a dealer? Where does the owner come in? And why don't they have someone whose job it is to ride? I thought this was a case of someone having a young horse they couldn't handle.

Not that it makes any difference to the actual horse in front of you.
Click to expand...

Yes technically they are dealers, although they bought him direct from ireland and the person is his owner. And yes they have someone who rides, she used to ride TBs apparently but she seems quite tense... having seen her ride another horse as well she was tense riding him and he was 'bombproof'.
No not a case of an unhandleable youngster, although most of their stock seems to be older and 'safe' - types of horses rather than young, bloody-types.
 
Have you googled the name of the dealer to make sure no horror stories come up? I think the horse sounds lovely but what you have just said rings alarm bells about a certain well known dodgy dealer. It may well be someone totally different and very good though, just worth checking if you haven't already.....
 
google all the phone numbers you have for them too. It is al sounding a bit weird now that they are a dealer.
 
Have followed this thread but not commented before.. although on the one hand it all seems quite reasonable on the other there appears to be something here that doesn't quite add up. Can I ask - how much is this horse for sale for? I am guessing in the circumstances it must be quite cheap and yet....maybe not???
 
VRIN said:
Have followed this thread but not commented before.. although on the one hand it all seems quite reasonable on the other there appears to be something here that doesn't quite add up. Can I ask - how much is this horse for sale for? I am guessing in the circumstances it must be quite cheap and yet....maybe not???
Click to expand...

Yes he is very reasonable, but there may be a reason for that I know! My budget is 3k and he is considerably less...

I have googled everything about them and checked out their FB profiles etc and previous buyers seem happy, I haven't found anything bad about them. They are only small scale though, and most of their horses are older and less 'quality/breeding' than this one.

I have had a long discussions with as many people as possible about him/the situation, and the general consensus is if he's nice to ride (which he has been for me so far the twice I've ridden him - and I'll ride him tomorrow and again on saturday), passes his vetting (from a very, very good equine lameness specialist) and behaves acceptably on his trial then he's worth a go. I feel if I have done all that and he has passed at each stage then there isn't much more I can do?

But am I being naive? His breeding is very good, he's the right picture of a horse of his breeding, and I know having been after a horse that ended up at this dealers yard that the do not put a big profit margin on top... but rather rely on a quick turn around.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top