Potential purchase part II

None of can see or sit on the horse. He may be the genuine article and just been unlucky, sold cheaply out of Ireland for some reason and bought by a dealer who underestimated what it would take to polish him up for sale.

But my question is why was he so cheap to them (presumably from a breeder or producer) that he's still cheap after they put their margin on. This could mean nothing.

Anyway, as you say, you'll do the checks and decide then. I would say though, if ANYTHING makes you wonder don't dismiss it. Will you be getting another opinion, preferably from your instructor?
 
If he passes his vetting (and doesn't put me off during the next 2 rides), then I will be taking him on trial. I doubt I'd get it back up to 2 weeks... I will have already had over 3 weeks to decide since first viewing him, normally they allow a viewing and a 2 week trial. Not several viewings/rides and then the same. If he's going to be bad hopefully he won't be able to contain himself for a whole week before he shows it, in a new environment I would expect him to be more likely to be a pain. Hopefully!
 
All sales are negations sellers can put down as many rules as they like but normally when money is in the equations things are negotiable. Im guessing the horse market over there isn't really hot at the moment ao its a buyers market?
 
TarrSteps said:
Anyway, as you say, you'll do the checks and decide then. I would say though, if ANYTHING makes you wonder don't dismiss it. Will you be getting another opinion, preferably from your instructor?
Click to expand...

Yes my instructor will be coming to give me a lesson on the horse and possibly ride, I also have asked a friend who used to groom for an Irish Olympic rider to come and have a look too.
I'm trying to ensure I've covered all bases. I may be able to contact the owner of his dam, do you think that'd be worthwhile??
 
If you could find a contact back along the chain - breeder, producer, seller - I'd suggest at least trying. Odds are they won't tell you anything pertinent but you never know. A client bought a horse that had come out of Ireland apparently unbacked then lightly started here. Beautiful, well bred horse. Tricky to back and then not okay to ride, so not like your prospect. She did some digging and eventually found the horse on a dealer's site, offered as broke and going! He turned out to have a significant physical problem so was not bad in no or light work but as soon as the program stepped up his behaviour went off the rails.

I'm not saying this could be the case with your situation at all. Even if he does have history that doesn't make him unsuitable. But finding out there has already been a few tries with the horse certainly informed how the owner moved forward with it.
 
I have tried to follow the trail but cannot find any contact details for the owner of his dam other than an address, but when I search for this there is no record of a stud etc but I guess he may work somewhere else.

Has anyone heard anything of Martin O'Hare, he is registered as the owner of Golden Liffey??
 
Can I just ask why you want a trial OP? You have ridden this horse so many times now, and apart from the initial viewing where the tense rider plonked herself on his back and he decked her, he has apparently done nothing wrong. I wonder if you have the ability to deal with a young blood horse if it's taking you this long to decide whether to buy him or not. I think the dealer is being very patient with you, personally I'd have him vetted and then hand over the money - you either want him or you don't.
 
I agree with bbh- as a seller I would not like all this time wasting. Two rides& a vetting is fine but asking for multiple viewings& trials is pushing it. Think the vendors have been extremely generous.
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Can I just ask why you want a trial OP? ........... personally I'd have him vetted and then hand over the money - you either want him or you don't.
Click to expand...
Why would the OP turn down the chance to have the horse on trial even if only for a week. All horse purchases are a risk, some more so than others. Taking every opportunity presented to minimise those risks just seems sensible to me.
 
PaddyMonty said:
Why would the OP turn down the chance to have the horse on trial even if only for a week. All horse purchases are a risk, some more so than others. Taking every opportunity presented to minimise those risks just seems sensible to me.
Click to expand...

Exactly. If they are OFFERING then why would she turn them down?? I presume if they thought they could turn around and sell the horse tomorrow then they would have made different arrangements.

I never get this idea that people - buyers or sellers - are "made" to do anything in a horse deal. Everyone is a grown up and can make their own choices.
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Can I just ask why you want a trial OP? You have ridden this horse so many times now, and apart from the initial viewing where the tense rider plonked herself on his back and he decked her, he has apparently done nothing wrong. I wonder if you have the ability to deal with a young blood horse if it's taking you this long to decide whether to buy him or not. I think the dealer is being very patient with you, personally I'd have him vetted and then hand over the money - you either want him or you don't.
Click to expand...

I like how because I am being careful about this purchase, and attempting to ensure I don't get a) injured b) end up buying a walking vets bill, I am not capable of coping with a young horse? FWIW I do have experience with both young and difficult horses, but sadly had a very nasty fall and lost my confidence a number of years ago. I have spent the last 6 years retraining ex-racers and helping other people with their young horses whilst regaining my confidence... I now feel in the 'right' place again to pursue a youngster of my own. I'm not sure if that counts as capable, but I also have a damn good trainer who will be included every step of the way and the funds to ensure I have plenty of input from her.

Although he may not be a lot of money to some, he is to me, and he will be an investment for my future. Therefore I want to make the right decision, and if the vendor is going to OFFER me a trial having ridden him three times already, then I am going to take the trial - I want to be as sure as I can this is the right horse for me. Is that not the responsible thing to do? That way I won't end up over-horsed/out of my depth and risk ruining myself and a poor young horse.

On to todays ride:
10mins of ground work, nice and responsive. Did notice he would go disunited in canter.
Popped tack on and let him go - baby horse bronked off around the arena for about 30secs...

The rider agreed with me, I think he's cold-backed. I got on and he was fine, didn't try and do anything and after about 10 mins was working in a lovely long and low outline. He is very poorly muscled, I am hoping that that is why he is being cold-backed and occasionally struggling with the canter... I guess the vetting will tell me!

I then took him on a hack on his own up a lane and around the main street in the market town, he was very 'looky' and took a lot of encouragement to get going at the beginning but no nasty spinning/napping, just big baby. Totally oblivious to traffic of all shapes and sizes.

I have booked a 5-stage vetting for next Wednesday, and have mentioned my concerns re: back pain to my vet so we may end up taking a couple of radiographs to check for KS, and be doubly sure SI isn't a problem. I am hoping his reaction was due to his poor muscling and inappropriate work, I do really like him and he really tried to work correctly for me today :)
If he passes the vet and the radiographs are clear then he'll stay for a trial, the feel he's given me isn't one of a 'bad' horse at all so I can't see the trial changing much.
I am fully prepared for 'baby' moments and am sure I will end up on the deck at some point, but so long as it's not through him being in pain/having behavioural issues then I can live with it.

I'll let you know how the vetting goes :) thanks for all the input, much appreciated :)
 
Haven't read all replies, but from the disunited in canter and bronking - I would walk . I simply say that because I've only recently had my mare ( sounds exectly the same as this ) diagnosed with KS. I know of course all horse are different , but very sensible to potentially X-ray the spine. Had I done that it would have saved me a lot of heartache over the last few days : (
 
louincrew said:
Haven't read all replies, but from the disunited in canter and bronking - I would walk . I simply say that because I've only recently had my mare ( sounds exectly the same as this ) diagnosed with KS. I know of course all horse are different , but very sensible to potentially X-ray the spine. Had I done that it would have saved me a lot of heartache over the last few days : (
Click to expand...

This. I too would walk away.
 
louincrew said:
Haven't read all replies, but from the disunited in canter and bronking - I would walk . I simply say that because I've only recently had my mare ( sounds exectly the same as this ) diagnosed with KS. I know of course all horse are different , but very sensible to potentially X-ray the spine. Had I done that it would have saved me a lot of heartache over the last few days : (
Click to expand...

Me too.

Might me minor and treatable, might be the sign of a serious situation brewing. But in a horse with his history it would make my antennae stand up. If you already owned the horse I think there could be discussions on how to investigate further and possibly move forward. But if you don't already own it. . .

It's possible the horse is just "weak". But are you in a position to gamble? And to do right by him if it is more than that?

As to finding out what you need to know from a vetting, I think your faith is misplaced. A vetting is not a work up and if it was that easy no one would ever buy a horse with a problem. Remember your vet will do what YOU ask, he/she won't say "don't vet it". Have you told your vet about the bucking and disuniting?
 
louincrew said:
Haven't read all replies, but from the disunited in canter and bronking - I would walk . I simply say that because I've only recently had my mare ( sounds exectly the same as this ) diagnosed with KS. I know of course all horse are different , but very sensible to potentially X-ray the spine. Had I done that it would have saved me a lot of heartache over the last few days : (
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about your mare :( it is devastating when you find out something like that... I hope you find a solution.
I am going to speak to my vet tomorrow about whether he thinks its worth even going ahead for the vetting. :( It is such a shame, he's a lovely boy.
 
A chap I spoke to one time last year said while he liked the type of horses Limmerick tended to produce, he would not buy another because he said all the ones he knew had a tendency to bronk, and once they sussed that that turning themselves inside out gets the rider off, they tended to become very, very difficult. I only know the one on my yard so my experience of them is very limited ! Whether that is relevant I do not know, but just thought I'd add that.
 
Sheep said:
A chap I spoke to one time last year said while he liked the type of horses Limmerick tended to produce, he would not buy another because he said all the ones he knew had a tendency to bronk, and once they sussed that that turning themselves inside out gets the rider off, they tended to become very, very difficult. I only know the one on my yard so my experience of them is very limited ! Whether that is relevant I do not know, but just thought I'd add that.
Click to expand...

Thanks, something to bear in mind. At the moment the aversion seems to be the saddle rather than a rider... I think the rider initially was just unlucky and didn't think before she plonked herself on without warming him up. I got on him straight after he'd had a bronk today and he didn't try anything. I'll await a chat with my vet...
 
That's it, if I were you I'd trust my instincts, you are being very sensible so I hope it all works out for you soon. The Limmerick on my yard does hump a wee bit from time to time when jumping and excited, but other than that he is a sweetie and is regularly ridden by a teenager who had mainly ridden in a riding school - she is tall tho so she isn't lost on him!
 
Be very cautious with vetting. It truly is a snapshot on the day.... I bought a horse who was 5 star vetted, the fact he had shivers went unnoticed by a very experienced vet! With the benefit of more experience I would have spotted the tell tale signs myself so would have expected an experienced vet to spot them! Buyer beware is a much better way of going forward... I would not have a horse vetted agin but would certainly walk away if ANTHING gave me a cause for concern. Its too expensive and heart breaking AND there are lots of nice horses out there with no issues!
 
How many young horses never go disunited? Nothing you have said would worry me. And wow to the people making you justify yourself. Nothing wrong with being overly cautious and I love trials it eliminates possible owner interference that could occur on your few rides.

As a seller I gave the new owner of my boy a trial because I new the rider suited him, he liked her and I didn't want my boy going to a home when he wasn't happy.

After 16 horses I've always used gut instinct and only vetted one (a stallion which failed on OCD) of the others I have had no issues health / behaviour wise. FWIW KS is very rare over here I'd love to know why when it seems quite an issue on these boards?
 
maccachic said:
FWIW KS is very rare over here I'd love to know why when it seems quite an issue on these boards?
Click to expand...

I think in years gone by the horse was just termed 'cold backed ' and people just got on with it. With more horses being xrayed comes more KS /SI diagnoses :(
 
TarrSteps said:
Me too.

Might me minor and treatable, might be the sign of a serious situation brewing. But in a horse with his history it would make my antennae stand up. If you already owned the horse I think there could be discussions on how to investigate further and possibly move forward. But if you don't already own it. . .

It's possible the horse is just "weak". But are you in a position to gamble? And to do right by him if it is more than that?

As to finding out what you need to know from a vetting, I think your faith is misplaced. A vetting is not a work up and if it was that easy no one would ever buy a horse with a problem. Remember your vet will do what YOU ask, he/she won't say "don't vet it". Have you told your vet about the bucking and disuniting?
Click to expand...

Sorry TS - missed this post last time. I haven't yet, but I've known him a long time and a spade is a spade with him, he doesn't mind if he hurts someones feelings by being blunt and honest. If he doesn't think it's worth looking at he will tell me so.

maccachic said:
How many young horses never go disunited? Nothing you have said would worry me. And wow to the people making you justify yourself. Nothing wrong with being overly cautious and I love trials it eliminates possible owner interference that could occur on your few rides.

As a seller I gave the new owner of my boy a trial because I new the rider suited him, he liked her and I didn't want my boy going to a home when he wasn't happy.

After 16 horses I've always used gut instinct and only vetted one (a stallion which failed on OCD) of the others I have had no issues health / behaviour wise. FWIW KS is very rare over here I'd love to know why when it seems quite an issue on these boards?
Click to expand...

Mhmm, I do think KS is over diagnosed as being the root of a problem - my gelding was diagnosed last year, and has received no other treatment than a new instructor and is better than ever! But I am worried.
On the lunge line he doesn't go disunited, and under saddle he doesn't (although he will do a half change if he strikes off wrong first time), only when free schooling.

??? Horses... makes me wonder why I bother! I like this horse a lot, but I am trying to be very critical, honest and realistic about both of us!

TBF maccachic, I don't think my gut instinct is particularly good! lol
 
Sounds like you have your bases covered if the vet goes well, your instructors, friends and the weeks trial will cover off the rest - not much more you can do. Fingers crossed for you.
 
Last edited:
Sadly guys after a long discussion with my vet and taking into account his advise - I have cancelled the vetting and decided against the little gelding :(
My vet advised basically, that with a view to his overall temperament, the severe response to the saddle yesterday and the rider on the first day is probably attributable to pain... whether it be KS/SI or sheer lack of muscle, they advised the vetting wouldn't rule it in/out and I could well be left with a mess even if he passed. Without going for a full lameness/back pain work up we wouldn't be able to get to the bottom of the problem, and even then advanced techniques may be needed to find subtle SI damage etc.
I am sad, he is a lovely horse. But wanting a competition horse, I need to be able to start with at least a blank canvas... and not one with holes already in it!
Never mind... I will go on looking and will let you know if something else comes along!
Thank you all for the advise and replies, having numerous takes on a situation is incredibly helpful so please keep on helping! :)
 
What a shame, but fwiw I think you have done the right, I just felt there were a few too many if's and but's.

Like you say, you are looking for a competition horse and a youngster should be a nice blank canvas - good luck!
 
Unfortunate but, I think, not entirely unexpected. Who knows, maybe someone else will "fix" the horse but my experience suggests that's not usually the long term outcome. Anyway, onwards and upwards.

Just to the "blank canvas" statement, I'm not always convinced by that view. Even a foal already has influences and experiences at work on it. I'm always entertained that once a horse is riding age people seem convinced that everything that happens - injury etc - happens "in the field" and yet they also believe nothing has ever happened to a horse before it's backing age! ;)

So don't set "blank canvas" as your main criteria, especially if you have a budget. Often it's a case of better the devil you know! I've seen and worked with lots of super "project" horses that were actually a bit older but green or under utilised. Don't get so caught up in the thinking that younger is some sort of guarantee that you miss other interesting options.
 
TarrSteps said:
Unfortunate but, I think, not entirely unexpected. Who knows, maybe someone else will "fix" the horse but my experience suggests that's not usually the long term outcome. Anyway, onwards and upwards.

Just to the "blank canvas" statement, I'm not always convinced by that view. Even a foal already has influences and experiences at work on it. I'm always entertained that once a horse is riding age people seem convinced that everything that happens - injury etc - happens "in the field" and yet they also believe nothing has ever happened to a horse before it's backing age! ;)

So don't set "blank canvas" as your main criteria, especially if you have a budget. Often it's a case of better the devil you know! I've seen and worked with lots of super "project" horses that were actually a bit older but green or under utilised. Don't get so caught up in the thinking that younger is some sort of guarantee that you miss other interesting options.
Click to expand...

Thanks I'll bear that in mind, I guess so, field injuries etc...
My plan is to utilise my friends contacts with breeders is Ireland via her old boss. Or I have some mid-range eventing contacts over here who breed some nice young stock. But, if you know of anything that may be suitable please pm me anyone!
My budget is around 3k, ideally 3-5years, 16.2ish hh and some blood, but I could increase it a fair bit for the 'perfect' horse :) .
The horse this thread was about has been offered to me at a substantial discount now... I have informed the vendor that unless she's willing to long term loan him first to see if his 'issues' could be rectified then it's still a no. You never know I guess!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top