Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
Apparently so! Theres nothing like an old, outdated, and proven untrue bit of research to get people jumping on a bandwagon that wont help and might well make things loads worse!!
Potentially aggressive puppy help
- Thread starter Laura2408
- Start date
Apparently so! Theres nothing like an old, outdated, and proven untrue bit of research to get people jumping on a bandwagon that wont help and might well make things loads worse!!
Slightlyconfused
Go away, I'm reading
I think this is where you need to start.
I have my dogs on the sofa, a collie, labxcollie (we think) and a cooker. The difference is say when they get off they get off, they have their bed too.
Doing most things you tell him at home is not good enough it sounds, this is where you need to start your work. If you can't control him 100% at home.then.it's not going to work out and about.
Work.on obedience and heel work at home.then get friends to come.round and work.him.while they are there and go from.there.
I dont claim to.be ask knowledgeable as other posters bit this has worked with a rescue I had.
Sags_Deer
Well-Known Member
Have you tried flyball. You have a mix of intelligent dogs maybe working him from the collie angle will distract and give him something to do
Teaselmeg
Well-Known Member
^^ This, he is not trying to take over !!
He is possibly going through the second fear period and if he is fearful and over threshold he will not learn. Firstly go back to your behaviourist, desensitisation and counter conditioning at a distance he is comfortable at, is the way forward and it WILL help him if you persevere and don't ask too much too soon. If he likes food but won't take a treat, you are too close to the trigger, start further back or try a toy, whatever floats his boat ! You definitely need professional help ( Cayla would also be a good option).
stormox
Well-Known Member
Frankiecob and blackcob -Allowing your dog on the sofa for cuddles is fine, as long as they do not come up uninvited, and thry get off when told. It is nothing to do with an 'outdated pack leadership' thing!
It is to do with obedience and control. What OP has tried hasnt worked so far- would it actually hurt for her to start again, asap, with different ground rules?
And I notice you two dont actually have any suggestions for her- you just posted to diss mine!
It is to do with obedience and control. What OP has tried hasnt worked so far- would it actually hurt for her to start again, asap, with different ground rules?
And I notice you two dont actually have any suggestions for her- you just posted to diss mine!
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
Deleted -- wrong link!
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Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
I have resisted sticking my head above the parapet and answering this one due to the wisdom that comes with old age and experience!
A working sheepdog that won't leave sheep when told "That'll do!" is almost as useless as one that has no interest in sheep at all. A working police or personal protection dog that won't "Leave!" or "Out!" when told is a liability and a danger to the public. Both problems would be resolved abruptly and permananetly in the real world of working dogs. Or the dog would be trained! I prefer the latter solution.
I would never recommend a collie x GSD as a family pet because the first has low bite inhibition and the second is bred to be territorial and protective. The correct cure once again is proper training and I'd recommend the OP seeks professional advice. A collie that cannot bite when it needs to is never going to be able to protect itself or turn a sheep that has no respect for dogs. Dogs are able to work sheep because the sheep respect (for which read fear) the dog. If they don't, they need to be taught respect which happens when they get bitten.
I'm old school and when I have occasionally had this problem (i.e. misdirected aggression), I'd train the dog to go flat down, instantly, on command. That essentially stops the problem by putting the dog out of harms way. Any deviation or hesitation would be dealt with by a quick flick from a switch. (I don't really understand why it is generally considered acceptable to smack or threaten a horse with a whip or crop but not a dog. Are horses less sensitive?). I'd then call the dog in to my side and away from whatever was interesting it. But then, as I've said, I am old school and probably obsolete. Of course, immediately the desired effect has been achieved, I make friends with the dog again AWAY from whatever he was illegally interested in.
As for a dog believing it is somehow superior to me (or anyone else) on the peck order because it gets petted or allowed onto the furniture, what nonsense. My young working GSD is doing well in man work yet he greets strangers with a wagging tail when I am around and enjoys being petted by the girls who help with the ponies. He is also very serious in his work, has a hard bite, and is suspicious of anyone when I am not around or tell him that a certain person might be a criminal -- but when told to "Leave!" he does so instantly.
I'd suggest that the OP's dog is picking up on his owner's anxiety. She is subconsciously sending messages via body language that an approaching dog or human is a potential threat -- and then the dog quite correctly acts accordingly. The problem is that the dog is not under control but acting on it's own initiative. He is misinterpreting the owner's anxiety about his (the dog's) possible behaviour as her own aggression towards that stranger. That's what happens when the signals are not clear and he dog is not trained how to interpret them. To encourage my dog in man work, I do just that -- pretend the decoy is a threat. My dog is also trained to go into attack mode if the stranger shows any aggression towards myself.
Dogs are not like humans (big surprise!) and can switch modes quite easily. In the following small video, you will notice that when told the dog actually greets the decoy he was previous attacking by wagging his tail and licking his hand. I have told the dog it's OK. The man is a friend. The dog behaves in the same way, greeting the man with a wagging tail and friendly approach, when he is loose and running around the yard as he usuallydoes when I am around. Is he a vicious dog or is he a trained one that is under control? Please bear in mind that the dog in the video is still a pup and not fully trained, yet he still does what he is told.
18 month old Max being petted by 16yo Siobhan.
The same dog at work, still aged only 18 months. Note what happens when the dog is told the decoy is a friend and can be trusted!
[video=youtube_share;mP3Q0PL_Qo0]https://youtu.be/mP3Q0PL_Qo0[/video]
A working sheepdog that won't leave sheep when told "That'll do!" is almost as useless as one that has no interest in sheep at all. A working police or personal protection dog that won't "Leave!" or "Out!" when told is a liability and a danger to the public. Both problems would be resolved abruptly and permananetly in the real world of working dogs. Or the dog would be trained! I prefer the latter solution.
I would never recommend a collie x GSD as a family pet because the first has low bite inhibition and the second is bred to be territorial and protective. The correct cure once again is proper training and I'd recommend the OP seeks professional advice. A collie that cannot bite when it needs to is never going to be able to protect itself or turn a sheep that has no respect for dogs. Dogs are able to work sheep because the sheep respect (for which read fear) the dog. If they don't, they need to be taught respect which happens when they get bitten.
I'm old school and when I have occasionally had this problem (i.e. misdirected aggression), I'd train the dog to go flat down, instantly, on command. That essentially stops the problem by putting the dog out of harms way. Any deviation or hesitation would be dealt with by a quick flick from a switch. (I don't really understand why it is generally considered acceptable to smack or threaten a horse with a whip or crop but not a dog. Are horses less sensitive?). I'd then call the dog in to my side and away from whatever was interesting it. But then, as I've said, I am old school and probably obsolete. Of course, immediately the desired effect has been achieved, I make friends with the dog again AWAY from whatever he was illegally interested in.
As for a dog believing it is somehow superior to me (or anyone else) on the peck order because it gets petted or allowed onto the furniture, what nonsense. My young working GSD is doing well in man work yet he greets strangers with a wagging tail when I am around and enjoys being petted by the girls who help with the ponies. He is also very serious in his work, has a hard bite, and is suspicious of anyone when I am not around or tell him that a certain person might be a criminal -- but when told to "Leave!" he does so instantly.
I'd suggest that the OP's dog is picking up on his owner's anxiety. She is subconsciously sending messages via body language that an approaching dog or human is a potential threat -- and then the dog quite correctly acts accordingly. The problem is that the dog is not under control but acting on it's own initiative. He is misinterpreting the owner's anxiety about his (the dog's) possible behaviour as her own aggression towards that stranger. That's what happens when the signals are not clear and he dog is not trained how to interpret them. To encourage my dog in man work, I do just that -- pretend the decoy is a threat. My dog is also trained to go into attack mode if the stranger shows any aggression towards myself.
Dogs are not like humans (big surprise!) and can switch modes quite easily. In the following small video, you will notice that when told the dog actually greets the decoy he was previous attacking by wagging his tail and licking his hand. I have told the dog it's OK. The man is a friend. The dog behaves in the same way, greeting the man with a wagging tail and friendly approach, when he is loose and running around the yard as he usuallydoes when I am around. Is he a vicious dog or is he a trained one that is under control? Please bear in mind that the dog in the video is still a pup and not fully trained, yet he still does what he is told.
18 month old Max being petted by 16yo Siobhan.
The same dog at work, still aged only 18 months. Note what happens when the dog is told the decoy is a friend and can be trusted!
[video=youtube_share;mP3Q0PL_Qo0]https://youtu.be/mP3Q0PL_Qo0[/video]
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
Several things about that video - love the pony trundling around in the same paddock and not even flicking an ear! I also suspect that a fair bit of training has gone into achieving that result. You are vastly experienced and can probably read Max's intentions at any time before he has even solidified them himself. He is a lovely dog, I bet he is strong. I know - as you have said before - that he is out with you all the time, so you can train him all the time he is with you.
The sofa thing (not at DR). Our dogs aren't allowed on the sofa, as one hair free area in a house is not too much to ask, but they do get on the beds when upstairs. We have no problem here with dogs on furniture but they ask to get on and hop off as soon as they are told. No dominant behaviour is allowed at any time, with other dogs in the pack or unknown dogs nor welcome visitors. It isn't about pack leader, it is about basic obedience, IMO.
OK, I only have labradors, but I expect them to know when to dog in a hedge and when to ignore a pheasant.
OP, I would be worried about a dog like that in a home enviroment with children. Are your children, and their friends, never going to throw open the wrong door and run into the room with this dog? How will he cope with playfighting? I am not a neurotic parent but I wouldn't want behaviour like that with children around. Good luck with the behaviourist, and I agree with the old fashioned one, but I am old fashioned too!
The sofa thing (not at DR). Our dogs aren't allowed on the sofa, as one hair free area in a house is not too much to ask, but they do get on the beds when upstairs. We have no problem here with dogs on furniture but they ask to get on and hop off as soon as they are told. No dominant behaviour is allowed at any time, with other dogs in the pack or unknown dogs nor welcome visitors. It isn't about pack leader, it is about basic obedience, IMO.
OK, I only have labradors, but I expect them to know when to dog in a hedge and when to ignore a pheasant.
OP, I would be worried about a dog like that in a home enviroment with children. Are your children, and their friends, never going to throw open the wrong door and run into the room with this dog? How will he cope with playfighting? I am not a neurotic parent but I wouldn't want behaviour like that with children around. Good luck with the behaviourist, and I agree with the old fashioned one, but I am old fashioned too!
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
And another thing... those of you dispute the pack leader idea, do you also dispute that your dog should do what it is told, as soon as it is told it? Is that not the same thing as being a leader? Or if you have multiple dogs, is your day designed by a committee vote?
stormox
Well-Known Member
Love the idea of a committee vote. Dobe-'lets go and run' .....Terriers-'what an idiot that dobe is, rattings much more fun'........Lurcher-'who wants to do anything? Why not sleep'.......GSD-'Im not doing anything unless mum comes too'....
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
LOL!
SpringArising
Well-Known Member
Agree with all this.
Not sure why people get all up in arms about being the 'boss', so to speak. You wouldn't let your horse barge into you in the stable (or at least you shouldn't), so why would you let your dog jump onto your lap uninvited? It's exactly the same principle - people just view it differently because a dog isn't going to crush your toe if it stamps on it.
Laura2408
Well-Known Member
Thank you to all of you.
Dry rot- if I could get my dog half as well trained as yours I would be happy. He never greets anyone with a waggy tail.
I think I am going to try and tell him more rather than ask but he does stress me out now as I hate meeting people and dogs as its so embarrasing.
With regards to children, my baby is only tiny and he has not shown any aggression to her, family or cats etc. If he had he would be gone. What I am concerned about is him meeting a strange child and at the moment I have baby gates up and leave him outside if strangers are coming. Baby is not yet mobile so I am hoping to turn him around soon. Strangely he is very submissive to the other dogs, if he gets wrong from the old GSD he immediately backs down and is very sorry.
Sorry forgot to clarify, he is not food motivated at all. He would not come to me for a treat even at home never mind outside! Toys he also isn't really interested in either. He won't fetch or anything like that and only likes toys to rip up...
Dry rot- if I could get my dog half as well trained as yours I would be happy. He never greets anyone with a waggy tail.
I think I am going to try and tell him more rather than ask but he does stress me out now as I hate meeting people and dogs as its so embarrasing.
With regards to children, my baby is only tiny and he has not shown any aggression to her, family or cats etc. If he had he would be gone. What I am concerned about is him meeting a strange child and at the moment I have baby gates up and leave him outside if strangers are coming. Baby is not yet mobile so I am hoping to turn him around soon. Strangely he is very submissive to the other dogs, if he gets wrong from the old GSD he immediately backs down and is very sorry.
Sorry forgot to clarify, he is not food motivated at all. He would not come to me for a treat even at home never mind outside! Toys he also isn't really interested in either. He won't fetch or anything like that and only likes toys to rip up...
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
Oh if only.
Dry Rot-I love the videos of your dog, he is game and keen and looks to be enjoying his work, I have no issue with the corrections you give as your bond with the dog appears to be strong but the dog does not great the decoy as a friend and the body language from you and the decoy is not confident body language-your dog is young and as mentioned keen and I think you are right to be cautious when introducing him to the decoy but he does not appear to be a trusted dog (yet). the tail wagging is low (not sure of the situation) and the licking is not a sign of confidence either-I don't doubt that it could be because he is young and training is very much a work in progress.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
I would not want a personal protection dog to be anything but be suspicious of a stranger until told otherwise as that rather defeats the purpose! At the end of the video, the decoy is introduced as a friend. Max accepts that -- with reservations. He is still on duty. Yes, we are both unsure in the video as he is the first dog I have trained in this line of work and he is still young at only 18 months of age.
The point of my post was to demonstratethat that even an aggressive dog can be controlled. In the OP's position, I think I would fit the dog with a comfortable muzzle and make a point of taking it amongst lots of people, preferably people who will pet the dg when asked, are not nervous of dogs, and are dog savvy. I get my decoys through an advert in the freeads for a modest hourly fee. Two ten minute sessions with a coffee break in between once a week are ample. The dog needs to learn that not everyone is a threat but some can actually be quite nice! Any aggression should be countered with a firm "No!" and a jerk on the lead. Then the OP should make a great show of greeting the visitor with a hand shake and conversation. Dogs are not stupid. They have been studying body language for millions of years.
Slightlyconfused
Go away, I'm reading
The stressing out part has flag he up for me. Your stress will lead onto him, don't worry or th i b about other people, work with him with a few small goals in mind eAch time but make sure your mind is clear of anything negative as that will set off his instincts both gsd and collie.
Good luck
stormox
Well-Known Member
In all working dogs,whether controlling sheep, bitework, gundog seeking and retrieving game, lurcher coursing a hare, terriers ratting, obedience work (with toy as lure) flyball, ..... it is all an inhibited and controlled form of the instinct to hunt and bring food back to 'home'.
If a 'inhibited' and 'controlled' means the sheepdog stops before biting the sheep, the gundog doesnt mangle the game, the GSD or Mali can be called off before the bite. None of this is trained by being 'an outdated pack-leader', it is a dogs natural instinct controlled by selective breeding, and careful, consistant training.
So IMHO OP needs to be very definite and consistant about what behaviours she wants from her dog. Reward the wanted, correct the unwanted.
There is no point trying to offer a treat or fuss as reward if in the dogs mind a nip or bite is more satisfying.....
And also OP must realise there is a difference between'bribe'and 'reward'.
If a 'inhibited' and 'controlled' means the sheepdog stops before biting the sheep, the gundog doesnt mangle the game, the GSD or Mali can be called off before the bite. None of this is trained by being 'an outdated pack-leader', it is a dogs natural instinct controlled by selective breeding, and careful, consistant training.
So IMHO OP needs to be very definite and consistant about what behaviours she wants from her dog. Reward the wanted, correct the unwanted.
There is no point trying to offer a treat or fuss as reward if in the dogs mind a nip or bite is more satisfying.....
And also OP must realise there is a difference between'bribe'and 'reward'.
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