Potentially controversial....what defines good behaviour?

Kellys Heroes

Kellys Heroes

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Having a good ole' chin wag with a friend the other day and it really got me thinking. He is very set in his ways as regards training. He believes firmly in positive reinforcement - which of course, a generally good way to go. I can't remember how it came about but he believes his dogs to be well behaved; they jump up, bark and don't listen to commands and - this is what got me - he says that he would rather his dogs be dogs rather than robots who do as they're told when they are told.

I disagree - I see it as bad manners if my dogs jump up, they DON'T bark without a reason to and if I ask them to come and sit, they come and sit. I believe they are happy and have enough chance to just be dogs, and our new dog certainly has a happier life here than where she was rescued from.

I also said I would rather see a bite collar (is it a bite collar???) being used correctly under expert supervision if there was a chance it would correct bad behaviour and give the dog a chance - I'm talking serious bad behaviour, e.g, serious aggression that may lead to euthanasia. We've seen one case where a bite collar has given the dog another chance at life and I would have much rather see the use of that than the dog be PTS (which was the other option). He disagreed.

What do you class as good manners and good behaviour?
K x
 
I agree, jumping up, barking etc is rude. Other dogs find it rude too a lot of the time.
It's not the dog's fault per se, it's the handler's duty (as it would be the mother or dog above it) to tell/train it not to do that.
Yeah, my older dog would be dead without a pinch collar. Tried positive, didn't work.
He is alive, he doesn't need it any more, he behaves, he is much more stable/happy and he is definitely a DOG.

He just sounds like he is using the 'dogs being dogs argument' to hide the fact that he cannot train his dogs :o

I'm a - + + person - correction for initial unwanted behaviour, positive for executive the right behaviour, more positive for doing it right.
 
I have bad dogs - they bark, they jump up, they take the pish out of me at home.

However, in public they are are VERY well behaved. No they aren't going to win any obedience awards, but they do have manners. I expect them to be impecably behaved out and about (vets, another groomer, park play dates and so on). I have used them for exhibition in public.

I *allow* them to take the pish a bit (but it's my house, I don't really care) but they know when we're out, on lead or off, it's time to mind p's and q's.

When it comes to other people's dogs - I would expect the same. If they can't get the dogs to behave in public however, I would expect them to work on it at home.
 
A different take on this one of my friends took her dog to a obedience class and was horrified to discover the trainer was the owner of very rude and disobedient Labs that she had met previously. My friend completed her course and said the trainer was very good but you have to ask if she was that good why were her dogs not obedient.

I would say my dogs are fairly obedient except when we come across deer:eek:, when I take my dogs for a walk I like them to let off steam and have a good old run around and enjoy themselves. They come when called and do not make a nuisance of themselves with other people,dogs or livestock.
 
some people just don't care how their dogs behave, and if they do they just don't show it. I actually had someone with a really rude and disobedient dog say 'yeah but you are lucky, your cara is so well trained'. Good behaviour to me is that she walks on the lead without pulling me over, she can be running a fair distance away and one whistle and she turns on a sixpence, obeys the normal commands, basically not letting me down in public i suppose. Her only downfall is cats, sweetest dog ever until she sees a cat then she is the tasmanian devil. would like to crack that one but nobody is willing to let us practice with their cats :D
 
Perhaps one of the best AAD threads, in a good while. What can I add? God knows!! :o

My dog is my servant, and with everything that I have, I will face my responsibilities. I will never see the role's reversed.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Perhaps one of the best AAD threads, in a good while. What can I add? God knows!! :o

My dog is my servant, and with everything that I have, I will face my responsibilities. I will never see the role's reversed.

Alec.
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Mine are not my servants (that's for sure!):p but they are my lifelong companions. I wouldn't have it any other way. :)
 
CaveCanem said:
Yeah, never understood 'ignore the bad, reward the good' to mean let the dog do whatever it wants/self-reward until whenever, in it's own sweet time, yeah, laters, dude :p :o
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I don't claim to be a trainer or expert in canine behavior. But I think the ignore the bad/reward the good can be misinterpreted?

For example, I have a dog on my table - usually a puppy that's unaccpting of the grooming process. Rather than be drawn in to a fight, cos IT WILL BE GROOMED, I simply carry on and ignore whatever it's doing. I will gently restrain and "pretend" groom it if I fear it might injure itself. But I very calmly carry on doing something so that the dog never gets the impression that it's bad behaviour leads to my stopping the clipping/brushing or whatever. The very second it relaxes and stops it's fight, I will then put down the tool, relax my hold and praise praise praise. I will do this a few times til it understands that fighting = me ignore it it and relaxing = my reward. I will increase the time it needs to accept the grooming and reward less frequently but the end result is that I always reward at the end with praise (never food).

I groom 99.9% of my dogs for the first several times this way - by maybe 4th or 5th visit I can usually just crack on with the grooming and give the dog a bit of praise at the end.

I have learned this from riding of all things (ie give/take contact) a habitual pulling cob. After that, a yorkie is a piece of cake! LOL

However, there clients of mine that will either reward the bad by feeding in to the frenzy or simply ignore when the dogs are jumping all over the joint. The dog never understands what it's expected to do so it makes its own rules up and the owner unwittingly obliges.
 
festnuttyfairy said:
Her only downfall is cats, sweetest dog ever until she sees a cat then she is the tasmanian devil. would like to crack that one but nobody is willing to let us practice with their cats :D
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Shame you're so far away - my cats have trained many a dog :D - they certainly don't take any rubbish!

Puppy learnt very quickly (following a lovely scratch on the nose :rolleyes:) and we have had two dogs round that would always chase cats... Lets just say they don't anymore and keep a very respectful distance!
 
I would just point out that I use positive reinforcement to train, and Henry is in my opinion a pretty good dog. Sure he has his moments of naughtiness and he has his weaknesses for sure, but in general I can trust him off the lead, he does as he's told and he isn't a nuisance to others. That in my opinion is a well behaved dog.
 
Spudlet, I use mainly positive reinforcement too.
I don't think anyone is trying to say that positive reinforcement results in badly behaved dogs and well behaved dogs have been battered to get them into that state :p I agree with PnP, especially in her last point, that a lot of the basic points of positive training are misunderstood and the dog has no idea what it is supposed to be doing or not.
That's an issue for trainers to explain the philosophy properly.
 
The problem comes when people time it wrong & praise the unwanted action.

I have a seven month old in for rehoming. Puppy farm bred, sold with misinformation , e.g. Bassets only need a 20 minute walk a day with a longer walk occasionally! Not lead trained and no bite inhibition.
Owners were saying his name & "be a good boy" whenever he misbehaved and his name & "good boy" when he behaved.

To me a well behaved dog is one that doesn't interfere with anyone else and allows appropriate actions from people & other animal. Basic manners really.
 
What defines good behaviour?

Thinking about it further, I suppose that it would be set by the individual owner or handler's thoughts. Some will demand regimented discipline, others will settle for a dog, more or less pleasing itself.

And further still, for me, it would be "manners", but then we're all different, thankfully!! ;)

A.

s4s, you beat me to it!! a.
 
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s4sugar said:
Owners were saying his name & "be a good boy" whenever he misbehaved and his name & "good boy" when he behaved.
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That drives me nuts, my mother says name and 'good boy' to the pup all the time, I use 'good' or 'OK' as markers, so am then squeaking 'Stop telling him he is good for no reason!! WHY is he good? He is not doing anything good or bad, he is just standing there!!!' it's a total waste of a word.
 
Two questions for those who have a work styled relationship with their dogs;

A/ Do you find that those who constantly talk to their dog, encourage the dog to ignore the human voice, and

B/ Do you allow your dog to put it's feet on you?

Not trick questions, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

A.
 
Alec Swan said:
Two questions for those who have a work styled relationship with their dogs;

A/ Do you find that those who constantly talk to their dog, encourage the dog to ignore the human voice, and

B/ Do you allow your dog to put it's feet on you?

Not trick questions, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

A.
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I will answer in my work capacity and then as a pet owner (though my pets aren't in a work style relationship - but you'll see the comparison anyway)

a/ at work, I only speak to the dogs if I feel they need encouragement (ie dog is starting to "melt" on the table a bit and a little uplifted voice to say "stand, good boy" goes a long way. If he needs a verbal correction ie ("no - stand) for getting too wriggly. I feel that chit chatting away to the dogs does tend to give the wrong message. At the end of the groom I will burble on a bit in a happy voice to show him that I'm pleased.

b/ dogs are NEVER allowed to put their feet on me while I'm working on them. I generally prefer that they don't jump on me in greeting or otherwise but I don't make a huge issue of it either. But while I'm working on the (in bath, on table or whatever) it's a BIG no-no.

AT HOME...

a / I speak to the dogs lots. Pehaps this is why they mick take and ignore me lots! LOL

b/ I do not allow them to jump on me in greeting- this is something I'm working on with them. I ignore them completely until they settle down and once they've stopped leaping about I then make a fuss. However....they still do it. It's getting better but the "training" is not consistent as my husband takes a different tact. He just refuses to do as I ask. He's even harder to train than the dogs!
 
A. I don't talk to Henry much, but he's around me a lot when I am talking, at work (my job can be fairly talky) or at home, and I do wonder if that does dull him to my voice a bit. I guess he might be sharper if he was kennelled, but my feet would get very cold in the evenings so that's a no goer:p:D He's generally good with a whistle which is what I mostly use anyway.

B. Yes, he is allowed to put a paw on me but he has to stop when I tell him. Generally he'll offer a paw if you start tickling him. He is a jumpy uppy dog but we are working on it (and probably will be until the day we die as other people will insist on encouraging him!):rolleyes:
 
Lola is learning to be more sensible when we have visitors and meet people out on walks. She doesn't sit on the sofa and unless I'm on my own doesn't come on the bed :). Im struggling with her recall when she gets excited :( but overall for a puppy shes doing very well I would say :). I would consider well behaved as responding to requests of the handler whatever they may be (If the handler and more complex requests then their standard of well behaved would be higher...)
 
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I think it all depends on what you want your dog to do and whether in general the dog stops whatever behaviour you want it to stop and does what behaviour you want it to do. For example, we let our dogs on the sofa and the bed, in fact they are encouraged to get on (we tap the cushion as an invitation to jump on), however no one is allowed to argue on the sofa/bed or growl for space and they all have to get off the moment we ask them to. For other people this could be a total nightmare of hairs and dirt but there is no objective standard by which to messure the behaviour, it all comes down to whether you want the dog on the sofa/bed or not. Or OH asks the dogs to jump up on him so he doesn't have to strain his back to stroke them (bad back) but we try to get them to do this only on cue and not to everyone who walks in through the door!!
 
I don't chit chat with the dogs but then I don't really chit chat to anyone :o
Only say something if I have something to say :p
Because my big dog is so big, I sorted his jumping up relatively quickly for elf and safety reasons.
I adapt it as a command, 'up' or 'get down' (I use a different word for the actual 'down' command).
The wee dog is quite a pushy type and will try and 'work' me, slap me with a paw, push things at me to get me to play with him, butt me with his nose, etc, something I am working at as it is quite rude.
He is allowed up on the sofa but only by invitation.
 
Training our puppy hasnt been difficult, shes a quick learner but the minute my daughter and her bf get home they are so pleased to see their baby that my good work goes out the window.

So I think we are all agreed we would have perfect dogs if it wasnt for our OHs/,family etc undoing all our good work.:rolleyes:
 
Dobiegirl said:
Training our puppy hasnt been difficult, shes a quick learner but the minute my daughter and her bf get home they are so pleased to see their baby that my good work goes out the window.

So I think we are all agreed we would have perfect dogs if it wasnt for our OHs/,family etc undoing all our good work.:rolleyes:
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It's true. If I lived completely alone on an island, my dog would be perfect:D
 
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