Pramox now or wait? Medium FEC

[HopOnTrot]

I used Pramox on two elderly natives last week, on vet advise, with no issue.

If you are unsure I would ask your vet, rather than an anonymous internet forum.

 

[Exasperated]

Is this because most haven't had a cold enough spell? We have

Where I am we’ve had 3 nights where dropped below zero. But still not a prolonged freeze. I’d hope by mid January will have had a couple of colder spells.

had a very cold week here and a good few inches of snow lying, so expected for a wee while yet.

Also us, and plenty of others, solid minus temperatures - ideal worming week: 5 day Panacur Guard from 15th Nov, to take advantage. Any encysted mucosal / inhibited small red worms - into the freezer, ha!
(The old schedule for tapeworms was harvest festival and Easter, today Equimax is less risky than Pramox. Moxidectin has been problematic for many, can trigger severe laminitis among other things. In late 1990s Equest was heavily promoted by the original manufacturers, Fort Dodge, via the veterinary practices, it still is. Was touted as a new, all-singing, all-dancing, cure-all product....
Pramox contains both moxidectin and praziquantel, which can prove hazardous chemical overload)

 

[Fieldlife]

I used Pramox on two elderly natives last week, on vet advise, with no issue.

If you are unsure I would ask your vet, rather than an anonymous internet forum.

That’s quite a naive answer.

My vet / most vets would say use pramox on 95% of horse population. Doesn’t mean 95% of the horse population will be side effect free if use pramox.

It’s a bit like saying always follow your GPs advice.

 

[southerncomfort]

whatever you decide there is no way I would ever use Promox . far too risky

I would search on here for thread about it and the horses that have been ill or worse.

Friend's pony just had a very bad reaction to it. He was so poorly, she thought she might lose him.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I used Pramox two years ago and one of mine became very ill afterwards.

So last year, I didn’t dare use it on anything.

Fast forward to 2 months ago, and one of mine had colic surgery, caused by encysted redworm damage.

So they have now all had or are having Pramox this year. Sadly nothing else treats encysted redworm and I can’t run the risk of one getting a high burden again.

Equest treats red encysted red worm pramox does as well but also treats tape so it has 2 ingredients instead of one.¹

Which is why it causes issues it's so powerful.

 

[ihatework]

That’s quite a naive answer.

My vet / most vets would say use pramox on 95% of horse population. Doesn’t mean 95% of the horse population will be side effect free if use pramox.

It’s a bit like saying always follow your GPs advice.

Are you saying that following vet or gp advice is naive but that following a random internet poster advice on a medical/vet issue is not???????

OP - any medicine/chemical entity you use has the potential to cause side effects. What you need to consider is the prevalence of those side effects (centrally collected verified reports, not internet Chinese whispers), risk factors for the horse being treated versus the potential benefits.

Personally, I think is following the advice of your vet is probably not a bad shout …

 

[Exasperated]

I used Pramox on two elderly natives last week, on vet advise, with no issue.

If you are unsure I would ask your vet, rather than an anonymous internet forum.

Yes, I used Equest - all-singing, all-dancing, pharmaceutical marketing dream -as enthusiastically recommended by my equine specialist vet in 1999.
Which same vet, distraught and apologetic, put the horse down six weeks later.
By which time, we had all made far more extensive enquiries, case studies, anecdotal evidence etc, etc, and were so much sadder and wiser.
Moxidectin is powerful, active in the gut for a very long time. If the animal is adversely affected, that factor is a significant and sometimes insurmountable problem.
Probably worth noting that horses’ metabolisms alter over time, and just like humans, they can develop conditions meaning a long-tolerated chemical can become wholly unsuitable.
By the way, there is now evidence of resistance to moxidectin, too, the great wonder drug.

 

[Exasperated]

Are you saying that following vet or gp advice is naive but that following a random internet poster advice on a medical/vet issue is not???????

OP - any medicine/chemical entity you use has the potential to cause side effects. What you need to consider is the prevalence of those side effects (centrally collected verified reports, not internet Chinese whispers), risk factors for the horse being treated versus the potential benefits.

Personally, I think is following the advice of your vet is probably not a bad shout …

This is over simplified.
The vet is your first port of call for equine medical advice. Has to be.
And vets are influenced by many things, their training, personal and reported professional experience, what’s available, what the client can afford or is able to manage, also the commercial contracts and relationships their practice has.
Doctors and consultants likewise receive freebies and junkets from pharmaceutical and medical supplies corporations.
It’s not illegal, can be helpful. Isn’t always.
Are drugs over-prescribed?
Current concerns re antibiotic resistance, anthelmintic resistance, etc, which blame owners, farmers, patients for over use - precisely where did those users get their drugs from in the first place? for all these years?
Which professionals advised and provided?
In case of livestock farmers, I can’t think of any who would ever use drugs if not actively advised to - they are so expensive, with so much recording, paperwork, prohibitions, every single time.
Had a recent drugs resistance conversation with our vet, who ‘hold my hands up’, said that under-informed, over-promoted and over-prescribed - created a global and industry wide problem.
Also noted that widespread under-dosing or incompletion of a course has been catastrophic for drugs resistance. And that vet training may not be as helpful as could be here - eg one of their young vets under-estimated horse weight by almost 100 kg (animal luckily been on a weighbridge 2 days before), because so much of the received wisdom relates to bloodstock industry. 15.2hh TB weighs a fraction what same height traditional might.
Re wormers, owners can mis estimate weight, mis timetable dosages, horse spits most of it out ....
Older wormers like Panacur, Strongid P have a wide tolerance margin, ‘over dosing’ was fairly safe and always preferable to under dosing. With moxidectin, and moxidectin plus praziquantel, that margin isn’t there.
There is always a context to these things, it’s not simple at all.

 

[onemoretime]

re your first line I am very risk averse.
Yes the ivermectin is unnecessary due to the ending of equitape. However safer IMHO than giving pramox and it is only given to those that test positive for tapes.

I don't get the timing. I always understood we tested for tapes (equisal) Sept/Oct and then if we were testing a 2nd time April. I must have that wrong and people must be testing early Jan in order to give pramox mid Jan.

Hi Paddy no you are right as that is what Westgate Labs recommend. I have followed their advice for sometime now. I give a green Equest mid January for encysted red worm. In April I use Equisal for testing of tapeworms. In between times I do FEC for redworm, then October another Equisal. My paddock is poo picked every day and there are only my two horses there.

 

[paddy555]

Are you saying that following vet or gp advice is naive but that following a random internet poster advice on a medical/vet issue is not???????

OP - any medicine/chemical entity you use has the potential to cause side effects. What you need to consider is the prevalence of those side effects (centrally collected verified reports, not internet Chinese whispers), risk factors for the horse being treated versus the potential benefits.

Personally, I think is following the advice of your vet is probably not a bad shout …

well I have had poor advice from GPs and hospital doctors to the extent they have had to apologise for their mistakes
I have had poor advice from vets. If I had followed their advice I would have had 1 horse PTS immediately and would have lost one due to their carelessness and lack of attention to detail. As it was I only lost about 4k due to that vet but at least the horse lived.

so if read about several horse people who have had problems with something (pramox) in this case then I do tend to take that into account when considering the risks of medication.
When I see a way of reducing those risks ie only using one chemical at a time (moxidectin) and of testing to see if the other is even necessary then that seems more sensible to me.

The best vet explanation I have had for using pramox is that by doing both at once I won't have to worry about forgetting. Not a good enough reason.

 

[Exasperated]

Hi Paddy no you are right as that is what Westgate Labs recommend. I have followed their advice for sometime now. I give a green Equest mid January for encysted red worm. In April I use Equisal for testing of tapeworms. In between times I do FEC for redworm, then October another Equisal. My paddock is poo picked every day and there are only my two horses there.

This is quite interesting:

if a key FEC aim is elimination of unnecessary dosage to stop resistance,
One would not expect advice to USE a wormer targeting tapeworms in Jan / Feb - when accepted understanding on tapeworms is to test for (and possibly treat) the little blighters, c. Easter / Harvest Festival times of year, surely?

The praziquantel in Pramox must be superfluous if used then, unless some new science showing everything we all thought we knew about tapes was wrong? So why?
Almost an excuse to use Pramox, when, if you were determined to use a moxidectin product, you might as well have minimised chemicals and used Equest.
Perhaps re visit the FEC lab’s advice to use Pramox in this way? Have they got a shed load to off load before expiry? particularly given the issues many horses have with it!

The moxidectin in both Equest and Pramox should treat other and encysted parasites, helped by likely cold weather Jan / Feb.

Equvalan (ivermectin) after firsts frosts used to be fashionable for reds/ encysted,
Equvalan Duo to also treat tapes in spring / autumn.

There are multiple other horse wormers than those the FEC labs typically supply (all businesses have purchasing contracts, theirs with pharmaceutical brands); including pyrantel products purely for tapeworm (cf VioVet site or similar); and growing issues of resistance in various anthelmintic families - including resistance to moxidectin, which brand products Westgate do promote.

 

[nutjob]

There are multiple other horse wormers than those the FEC labs typically supply

I have used both Westgate and Poopost and neither of these sell wormers of any type, which companies are you referring to?

 

[mini-eventer]

I used Pramox two years ago and one of mine became very ill afterwards.

So last year, I didn’t dare use it on anything.

Fast forward to 2 months ago, and one of mine had colic surgery, caused by encysted redworm damage.

So they have now all had or are having Pramox this year. Sadly nothing else treats encysted redworm and I can’t run the risk of one getting a high burden again.

Equest treats encrypted redworm.

Pramox does both this and tape. You can worm with equest and then tape separately

 

[SEL]

This is quite interesting:

if a key FEC aim is elimination of unnecessary dosage to stop resistance,
One would not expect advice to USE a wormer targeting tapeworms in Jan / Feb - when accepted understanding on tapeworms is to test for (and possibly treat) the little blighters, c. Easter / Harvest Festival times of year, surely?

The praziquantel in Pramox must be superfluous if used then, unless some new science showing everything we all thought we knew about tapes was wrong? So why?
Almost an excuse to use Pramox, when, if you were determined to use a moxidectin product, you might as well have minimised chemicals and used Equest.
Perhaps re visit the FEC lab’s advice to use Pramox in this way? Have they got a shed load to off load before expiry? particularly given the issues many horses have with it!

There's no real seasonality with tapeworm. You can test & treat whenever.

 

[Carrottom]

When I was young, long time ago, we were told to treat for for tape in autumn because this was when most equines came in off grass and onto hay. It was thought that tapeworm didn't survive in hay therefore the horses would be clear until they went out in spring.

 

[Fieldlife]

This is quite interesting:

if a key FEC aim is elimination of unnecessary dosage to stop resistance,
One would not expect advice to USE a wormer targeting tapeworms in Jan / Feb - when accepted understanding on tapeworms is to test for (and possibly treat) the little blighters, c. Easter / Harvest Festival times of year, surely?

The praziquantel in Pramox must be superfluous if used then, unless some new science showing everything we all thought we knew about tapes was wrong?

The timing of tape worming was around ways horses kept historically. Today you can effectively treat tape worm at any time of year.

 

[sideshow]

I used Pramox two years ago and one of mine became very ill afterwards.

So last year, I didn’t dare use it on anything.

Fast forward to 2 months ago, and one of mine had colic surgery, caused by encysted redworm damage.

So they have now all had or are having Pramox this year. Sadly nothing else treats encysted redworm and I can’t run the risk of one getting a high burden again.

Equest (green box) treats encysted. Pramox is a mix of praziquantel and Moxidectin which treats tapeworms as well.

 

[paddy555]

Perhaps re visit the FEC lab’s advice to use Pramox in this way? Have they got a shed load to off load before expiry?

to my mind this is a rubbish comment.

 

[Borderreiver]

to my mind this is a rubbish comment.

I agree. Westgate Labs is a totally ethical business and does not sell any wormers. I know this as it is my family business founded by me and my husband 25 years ago. Vets do sell wormers yet labs are cited as ‘commercial’, how can that be? Any advice from Westgate, which is freely given is the best possible using current research and knowledge. If you want to know how to implement worm control on your yard then that is the place to start.

 

[Apizz2019]

Personally, I'd be blood testing for encysted redworm, and for tapeworm, if a mod/high result, I'd get praziquantel from my vet.

That's exactly what I've done this year.

It's more expensive this way but wormer resistance is a real issue so my view is why worm with something when we don't necessarily need to, or if there is a specific wormer available to treat specific worms, i.e tapeworm.

 

[Fieldlife]

I agree. Westgate Labs is a totally ethical business and does not sell any wormers. I know this as it is my family business founded by me and my husband 25 years ago. Vets do sell wormers yet labs are cited as ‘commercial’, how can that be? Any advice from Westgate, which is freely given is the best possible using current research and knowledge. If you want to know how to implement worm control on your yard then that is the place to start.

Westgate labs are front runners in worm counting / worm testing and giving good advice on timing and drug usage. And totally independent as dont sell wormers. They also give a lot of free advice.

 

[Apizz2019]

Here's a good infograph re testing and worming.

In my opinion, Westgate are brilliant. I've been a subscriber for years and am extremely grateful for their free advice.

 

[Miss_Millie]

https://www.facebook.com/ardenehousehorsevets/posts/pfbid0j5YssgCjP6We6UFyCqH2ALdu41tLbuCEN7ToGGjU5wMNfpvbfruxgGQvS8wb9U9ml

I thought that this was an interesting post put out by a vet practice about Pramox. I also know someone with a horse who died within 24 hours of being given Pramox, so would only treat with it if I thought completely necessary.

 

[Fieldlife]

https://www.facebook.com/ardenehousehorsevets/posts/pfbid0j5YssgCjP6We6UFyCqH2ALdu41tLbuCEN7ToGGjU5wMNfpvbfruxgGQvS8wb9U9ml

I thought that this was an interesting post put out by a vet practice about Pramox. I also know someone with a horse who died within 24 hours of being given Pramox, so would only treat with it if I thought completely necessary.

Yes I saw that two, nice to see a vet practice on message with current thinking about worming. My experiences to date on getting current (resistant awareness) advice from Vets has been pretty mixed.

 

[paddy555]

Yes I saw that two, nice to see a vet practice on message with current thinking about worming. My experiences to date on getting current (resistant awareness) advice from Vets has been pretty mixed.

I haven't found that at all. In fact since about 2012 (or a little earlier) the advice/comments have always been that we don't worm now we test first to see if we need to.

I do remember however my vets horror at worm counting. It was around 2005. I had been testing for a couple of years by then and one day said to my vet in passing, BTW I'm not worming them any longer, I'm counting. They looked horrified and, very politely as they knew me well, more or less said "on your head be it when it all goes wrong"

 

[Fieldlife]

I haven't found that at all. In fact since about 2012 (or a little earlier) the advice/comments have always been that we don't worm now we test first to see if we need to.

I do remember however my vets horror at worm counting. It was around 2005. I had been testing for a couple of years by then and one day said to my vet in passing, BTW I'm not worming them any longer, I'm counting. They looked horrified and, very politely as they knew me well, more or less said "on your head be it when it all goes wrong"

they'd be right if you'd meant it literally.

I assume in 2005 you meant, I am worm counting, worming for standard worms if get a high count. For tape and encysted I am still worming.

No tape or encysted tests in 2005.

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

My concern is - what is considered a prolonged cold spell? The weather is so unpredictable these days that we might not even get a prolonged cold spell… what happens if we don’t?

 

[Fieldlife]

My concern is - what is considered a prolonged cold spell? The weather is so unpredictable these days that we might not even get a prolonged cold spell… what happens if we don’t?

I’d worm late February if not

 

[snowangel5]

Friend's pony just had a very bad reaction to it. He was so poorly, she thought she might lose him.

I hope your friends pony gets better soon

 

[Exasperated]

I have used both Westgate and Poopost and neither of these sell wormers of any type, which companies are you referring to?

(Sorry, been too busy to keep up)
Some do, eg Mole Avon stock many competitively-priced equine products, including wormers.

Good to hear Westgate and Poopost offering useful service and advice.

As horse keepers are currently advised that worming against tapes can be 365, there is no obvious reason to risk chemical double whammy from Pramox - either in the winter, or at ANY OTHER TIME ( cf the 365 advice), particularly since so many horses show reactions against Pramox.

Even if devoted to moxidectin - owners can use a sole moxidectin dose with Equest, without adding praziquantel into the cauldron.

(Noting that moxidectin resistance is now also an issue, info recognised and sensibly circulated by some vets)

Re encysted options: Panacur Guard (5 days) treats encysted inhibited and encysted mucosal small red worms; immature and mature roundworms; large red worm; migrating large red worm; ascarids; and is ovicidal against nematode eggs.
It’s been around longer than moxidectin, with wider dosing margin of safety (any under dosing is problematic for resistance development to any wormer category), and altho there will always be some intolerant animals, seem far fewer and far less dramatic adverse reactions than to moxidectin and moxidectin-plus-praziquantel products.

Useful duration of cold snap?
Panacur Guard: ideally a frosty forecast of 5 days to one week, takes c. 24 hours to start significant expulsion, and ideally clear your paddocks!
Ivermectin: c. 3 days frost according to our vet, again clearing paddocks,
Moxidectin is powerful and long lasting in the gut, if horse is going to react unfavourably it is usually well within 24 hours, the chemical is fast acting.
Good luck!