PRE horses for dressage

[PRE]

Good evening everyone,

My name is Guillermo, I just joined this forum today and I wanted to say hello .

I am Spanish and came to live in the UK last summer. I was brought up around horses as my uncle is a dressage trainer back in Spain and I have been always surounded by Andalusian horses.

Since being over here I haven't noticed a lot of PREs about as it seems to be mainly warmbloods over here for dressage? I was wondering why this was and what people thought about PREs for dressage.

I have my own PRE stallion that I brought over here when I moved and another back in Spain. I also wondered why people don't seem to keep stallions over here?

Sorry for the questions but I am just interested as I am probably bias as I think PRE horses are amazing but everything seems very different and strange to me over here!

Looking forward to speaking with you all

 

[Herts05]

Hi and welcome to the UK
If you are on Facebook, join the BAPSH group. You will find there are a growing number of PRE (and Lusitano) owners in the UK.
I've got an 8 year old PRE, imported from Spain and a Luso x Selle Francais that I bred myself.
On my recent dressage outings I have come across both PREs and Lusos, so they are out there competing.

 

[dressagecrazy]

Hi, welcome to the forum. I don't come on here much but you will find there is a few of us with PRE's

My own is a rising 5yo who has just started competing BD, I also compete a WB. Im open to all breeds as long as they have a good confo & move well. There's nothing wrong with having stallions but what is the point of having them if there never used or aren't the best specimen ? They may as well live a happy life as a gelding.

 

[PRE]

Thanks, didn't know about this group! I will have a look on facebook

About why keeping them stallion if you are not going to breed them...

I have been told since I'm a child that with PREs and in competition, a gelding will never give you the same sort of movements and expression than a stallion...
Obviously as you said, there is no point if it's not the best specimen, but if you invest in a good horse, with great bloodlines is a shame to geld him, as you never know if you would want to breed him or not in a future.

The one I brought with me is a son of Senado and the one in Spain is a black stallion with Yeguada Militar, Peralta and Escalera bloodlines.

As I said things seem quite different over here, so I am very interested in hearing people's opinion...

By the way...not so many men riding over here?!

 

[TarrSteps]

Re keeping horses as stallions here, obviously part of it is cultural but for many people the issue is they would struggle to find a yard that allows entire horses. There are lots of reasons but I suspect a major reason in many places is fencing - you may have noticed that even quite high end places use electric fencing and don't have alleyways between paddocks, which would make it tricky to keep stallions.

 

[PRE]

Hi TarrSteps,
I think culture is much different, generally in Spain foals are out in fields with mares, but when they turn 3 (if its a good one maybe when is 2 to protect from possible injuries) stallions are kept in stables all the time, they just turn them out when they train them (we don't have much grass fields though...)

But normaly in PRE studs they teach stallions to behave surounded of mares, geldings,foals and other stallions...Last week I was in Spain visiting a stud and we went for a hack. There were mares, geldings, stallions and the principal stallion of the stud (currently breeding...) and all of them were together without any kind of trouble. Anyway I think PRE breed stallions are more respectful and less agressive than some other breeds...

Is it the same over here? Or do people tend to isolate stallions from other horses?

 

[Herts05]

PRE, as you say things are different in the UK. We are lucky that most of us have fabulous grazing and a long history of keeping horses outside (though you would wonder why we do so with some of the horrible weather we have).
I have spent a little time in Portugal and seen first hand how differently horses are managed. The climate really does dictate horse management, hotter summers, more flies and less grazing. Both ways are good so I'm not going to vote one way or the other. My PRE had never been turned out before I got him and I had to introduce him slowly to his field.
I'm sure your experience of Iberian horses will be of interest to those people who are just taking the plunge and buying them. Be prepared for a number of questions..
Where are you based? There are a number of good trainers in the UK who have spent time in Spain/Portugal and we are lucky to have regular visits from trainers to the UK also.
You will be interested to learn that we also have a very high profile show for PRE and Lusitano horses in Spring at the Windsor Horse Show which is always well attended.
Lastly, there are probably as many men riding the the UK as there are women riding in Portugal

 

[PRE]

Herts05,
It's true, in Spain is the same than in Portugal then...usually horses is a men thing...but I am not complaining there are as many women over here...

I'm in Essex and for my horse Preferido was such a shock to come over here, He was in south Spain enjoying a warm summer, and the next week he was in Essex with a British "summer" rainning like he had never seen and everything strangely green and tasty! But obviously he had to be introduced to the grass gradually.

Thanks, I would definitely try to go to those shows.

I'll be more than happy to answer anyones questions if they have any...or at least I can try

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

Hi and welcome. I also have a PRE stallion who was imported as a 5 year old and is now 7. He also had no concept of grass or turnout out in spain for reasons youve stated, but fortunatly have got a lovely yard here and he goes out for a couple of hours each day and is quite happy with that, any more and he starts pacing the fenceline and wants to come in.
Disagree with whoever said why not geld them to have a happy life, kiricos is on a mixed yard, gets as much turn out as he wants, is able to constantly see and communicate with other horses and is basically treated no differently. I have no desire to breed from him but want to keep him as a stallion as i show him and also think stallions will retain more expression and charisma than geldings, and that if i come to sell him he'll be worth about half his current value if he was cut. Obviously PRE's are the exception to the rule as they have got such amazing temperments that allows them to be kept entire more than other types i know, its just peoples attitudes towards stallions that is more of the problem in a lot of cases rather than the horses themselves.
OP def have a look at the BAPSH fb site, lots of useful info on there and it has regular updates on what shows are on each year. From personal experience ive found the New Forest and Romsey shows to be the best in the south, as well as the bapsh breed show at hartpury every july obviously

 

[B-B]

PRE its interesting that you refer to the PRE or Spanish horse as and Andalusian.

 

[Booboos]

I think PRE horses can do a lovely dressage tests and like all breeds they have their weaknesses and their strengths (which may not evn apply to any on individual horse who is not typical of the breed). On the whole my impression is that PREs find it easier to collect so they may be at a slight disadvantage at the lower levels over a horse with expansive paces and good extensions, however the tables may be turned at a higher level. At the same time a well trained horse is bound to do well no matter what its breed. I don't think UK judges on the whole have a prejudice for or against certain breeds.

As for stallions, I have never ridden or handled one, but I have been told that they require more consistent and knowledgeable handling/riding than geldings and therefore they are not the best choice for the amateur rider. Some pros say that stallions are more likely to be distracted in show situations (I recall Carl Hester making some such comments in an interview) and therefore they prefer geldings, but again I imagine it's down to the individual horse - Uthopia seems to be managing OK!

Quite a few yards I know in the UK won't accept stallions as they feel they require different management, e.g. stabled away from mares, expert handling and secure turn-out. The only thing I would say from riding in Greece, the UK and the south of France is that the heat makes a HUGE difference to the horse's general exhitability and it may be that stallions on the whole are better behaved in hotter climates, but that's a bit speculative fun on my part!

 

[PRE]

PRE its interesting that you refer to the PRE or Spanish horse as and Andalusian.

Good morning, in this half year in the UK, while talking with people into horses over here, no one knew spanish horses as a PREs, all of the called them Andalusians...

And it's normal to give this name, as the origin of this breed comes from Cordoba (Andalusia), where the king Felipe II (in the Royal Stud), ordered to breed the best Stallions with the best and more prolific mares in the area near the Guadalquivir river.

 

[PRE]

Good morning, in this half year in the UK, while talking with people into horses over here, no one knew spanish horses as a PREs, all of the called them Andalusians...

And it's normal to give this name, as the origin of this breed comes from Cordoba (Andalusia), where the king Felipe II (in the Royal Stud), ordered to breed the best Stallions with the best and more prolific mares in the area near the Guadalquivir river.

Of course a horse can only be called officialy a PRE if they are papered and fully registered in the ANCCE.
There is many people pretending that their horse is a "PRE", when in fact is not...

Hi Booboos,
One of the first differences is that PRE stallions, since early ages, try to bit...something you can correct with time and patience...( and some little bruises if he catch you... )

PRE stallions are more awake than geldings, with this I mean they pay much more atention to everything is around them, so maybe that's by pros said they are more likely to be distracted...but it is the rider who has to correct this situation straight away, if your horse is submissive while riden (PREs are very responsive), so if its well trained the rider would have control of all his senses.

I will continue with the speculation about warm weather and stallions... can be because in warm countries horses is a men thing...and normally they handle stallions being more stricts...I don't mean it in a sexist way, but do you think because is mainly women over here that horses are treated slightly differently??

 

[Booboos]

Possibly you are right, I don't know.

It only occurs to me from very very few examples. My lot seem a lot calmer in the south of France than in the UK, but as well as much warmer weather we have a lot less driving wind and rain. Then again they also live out now 24/7 so who knows???

 

[B-B]

Of course a horse can only be called officialy a PRE if they are papered and fully registered in the ANCCE.
There is many people pretending that their horse is a "PRE", when in fact is not...

If you can prove half parentage then they are Part-PRE.

Only horses born in Andalucia (Spanish spelling?) can be referred to as Andalucians - according to Spain.

 

[luckyhorseshoe]

Hi. I have a PRE mare. She came over from Spain at 18months. I brought her at 4, broken in. I've brought her on slowly over the last year.

I am absolutely love PRE horses. I particularly like the small traditional stocky types but that's just my preference.

I aim to have a go at showing mine this year, with the aim of some BD if she's ready

 

[PRE]

Hi luckyhorseshoe,
That's really interesting. It seems to be that at the moment there is more interest in the sporty modern PRE than the more traditional stocky type.

What breeding has your mare? Would love to see any pictures of any PREs people have over here, particularly those that are currently competing (or aiming for in the future) as I am curious to how they compare with the more typical horses I have seen competing over here.

This is Preferido, who is now living over here.

And this is Sarmiento, who is currently in Spain.

 

[j1ffy]

Hi there and welcome!
I am a big PRE fan, in fact I have three of them as I always seem to fall in love with another one when in Spain :O I brought my first one to the UK and did some low level unaffiliated dressage and BD. He was a stallion when we bought him and very chilled out, but I wanted to give him a 'normal' horse life and had no plans to breed so I had him gelded before he moved, though he's from good Yeguada Militar lines. He settled into living out and socialising very quickly! There didn't seem to be any prejudice against him from judges, quite the opposite, but we were only at lower levels and I worked hard to get him working longer and lower.

Here he is:

Your black stallion is stunning! He reminds me of a lovely stallion that I had the luck to ride in Spain, Nono. Here is Nono's 3yo son, Nonito, who I met earlier this year:

And here are my other two (still babies at 3 and 4!), who have never left Spain - the 3yo filly on the right is also by Nono, the 4yo gelding is Pallares lines from a stud near Vejer de la Frontera in Andalucia:

Do you have any ridden pics of Preferido? What level is he working at and what level do you plan to compete him (I assume you're aware that he will be assigned BD points as an imported horse)? He has a gorgeous face.

 

[tristar]

hello pre!

i have a tres sangres stallion, he's a great little horse! so different to any i've had before, he is out all day, and i don't have alleyways, he has to behave! he can be very lively and very docile, can change personality a lot but when i am on his back he gives me his full attention, i am breeding tres sangres also.

in england as a lot of other countries don't really understand what training is, and therefore produce a lot of not very good dressage work, that's my personal opinion, i love the iberian disciplines and would love to do doma vaquera!!

 

[PRE]

Hello j1ffy and tristar!

Thank you j1ffy...the funny thing is that Sarmiento (the black stallion) is son of Nono III and he is in a stud in vejer de la frontera! We are keeping him over there because he is still a baby (3yo in March), but felt in love the first time we saw him...

Your horses look lovely! really kind eyes... where abouts near Vejer are they?

Preferido will be 4 at the begining of February, and we are going to take him to his first show at the end of February, only preliminary, just to let him get use to it, as he has been out already many times and surounded by many horses, but it is best to give him some experience and if everything will be fine, we'll affiliate him and start in novice.

I totally agree with Tristar, Preferido is out every day in his field and spend the night in stable and as he is still young, many times get bored, or wants to play and is more full of energy, but always docile, PRE stallions are good by nature, once you sat on them...they know it is work time and they are completely focused.

We are thinking to breed both of them, as they have really good morphology (i think is the word... ) and great bloodlines. The best thing is that Sarmiento is a black stallion and is black homozygous, so more likely to give black foals (seems to be one of the most popular and precious coats colour for PREs).

My uncle is a classical dressage trainer in Spain with more than 20 years experience, He is very strict when it comes to the training plan of young horses in particular and a long time is spent working on the basics. PRE horses have natural ability for the more advanced movements but it is so important not to take advantage of this, as he always says "The slower you go, the faster you will achieve..."

Getting them working long and low as you said j1ffy, is perhaps harder for them than other breeds initially, but so important. We are at the moment working on this with Preferido, sometimes succeeding...sometimes not!! but getting there

This pictures are from December 2011, (My grilfriend riding him).

 

[j1ffy]

Hello j1ffy and tristar!

Thank you j1ffy...the funny thing is that Sarmiento (the black stallion) is son of Nono III and he is in a stud in vejer de la frontera! We are keeping him over there because he is still a baby (3yo in March), but felt in love the first time we saw him...

Your horses look lovely! really kind eyes... where abouts near Vejer are they?

Wow, small world!! The two greys are with Antonio Corrales, who trained Nono. Where is Sarmiento? Pocholo is now back in Spain at San Ambrosio near Vejer.

The gelding, Indio, is from El Ancla stud - do you know it? I'd love to find another homozygous black stallion as we're planning to have a foal from the filly, and it would be interesting to see if we could breed a black one.

 

[dressagedreamer]

Hello and welcome not only to the forum but to the UK. I own two spanish horses, one I imported from Malaga aged 3 (he is now 9) and the other was bred in the UK. I agree they are utterly fantastic horses.

Your observation is very true that very few PRE's are in the dressage area, I am struggling a little with my boys to get really good marks (although very rarely been out of the top 6 places) the remarks I often get is "the horse seems tense" this is when my horse is soft and supple, but I feel it is the way the PRE naturally holds their self and therefore giving the impression they are tense, judges over here seem to like the long and low in the lower classes, so making an normally "uphill" horse look tense.

Stallions kept on livery yards is not common, mainly for all the reasons all ready made, also in the past (don't know if it has changed) you had to have permission to move a stallion. There are people who do keep stallions, I was on a yard that only had spanish horses and only kept stallions, hence the reason I was there. I had to move my boys and have them gelded, one of them has not realised and still acts stallion like but everyone loves him so there is no problem

 

[PRE]

Hello and thanks for the welcoming dressagedreamer, would love to see any pictures of yours!

I think we'll may have the same problem with Preferido, as he is quite uphill, but we are working hard with him to make him work with his neck lower and he is answering really well... something we are really happy about him is how quick he learns!

About El ancla stud, i have heard about them and just had a look on their website, but have never been there...

Sarmiento, this year he will be graded as Apto so probably once done will start breeding him... He is currently in the stud in vejer where my uncle is training some horses, so hopefully next year he'll be with a good level and ready to compete

Your filly looks very nice and you must be excited at the prospect of breeding from her, would you keep her in Spain to do that?

 

[dressagedreamer]

if you click on my name you can go to my profile and see some photos of my boys in there, there are not many of them in action because I am the one taking the photos, and that is difficult to do whilst on top

 

[luckyhorseshoe]

PRE - sorry can't quote as I'm on my phone!

Yes I think a lot of people are into the modern type but I like to be different!

Not sure what the lines are exactly - although I've been told enough times but I could on you the web link if u'd like.

I can't send any photos as on my phone but you might be able to look st some of my previous posts with her in!

 

[thespanishmane]

Hello there!
I have two Spaniards, and maybe PRE,you can help me with some queries?

firstly, my own horse is the traditional 15.2 'Short and agile' type horse. he was 5 when I got him as imported horse, and very, very green. He has the most wonderful nature, but as he was only just gelded before I got him he still has 'stallion like presence'. it has always been hard to get him long and low, and like one of the other forum members I have had comments as 'horse tense' etc as he has wonderful self carriage. however, he goes superbly in a ported mouth spanish bit, used with two reins and a rubber covered curb, on the lightest of contacts and will listen to every command. He tries his hardest, and almost does a 'swagger' when he gets things right. The biggest problem I have is to replicate all the good work with a snaffle! He just seems to hate them and I have tried every one in the book! He sets his neck and his jaw, and just wants to run off. this is SO against his usual soft and willing way in his spanish bit. He is also very soft in double too, but i prefer the other as i feel it is less clutter.
so, dressage tests are a problem, as he hates a snaffle. My guess is to keep on schooling until we reaach elementary level (almost there). any ideas why this might be?

the other horse is a PRE my husband has on loan. He was a bolter and a rearer when we first had him a year ago, with the most awful scarring on his nose from a Serreta. He would go with his ears up your nose and belt off when he could. now he is the daftest thing imaginable, and is ridden in a pee wee snaffle with no pulling at all. when we first had him his owner told us he had to be ridden in a really severe bit with a curb chain - he got stronger and more unruly until we went the opposite way. The poor chap has very pink skin, and very fat lips and thick tongue,and the brusing round his mouth was awful. My husband has now started teaching him to jump, and the horse just loves it, no pressure on him at all. He now really comes into his own. He is no pretty thing though, bless him - head too large, very thin legs, narrow chest,too much pink skin- but a heart of gold. Perhaps you might be able to let me know how some are broken in to be this fearful?

 

[B-B]

Spanishmane I would keep him on a circle and no straight lines to stop him setting his jaw and running off, until he has softened and accepting the contact.

Using a stronger bit or double will only mask the issue and his lightness will come from being behind the contact. This will become apparent as you progress through the levels as he will need to have developed the suppleness and strength over his back to perform the movements. Better to find someone to help with this at this stage.

 

[j1ffy]

Spanishmane, I rode a horse in Spain that was similar to yours in a snaffle though not as pronounced. I think the problem is not the bit per se, but the idea of working into a contact. In the Spanish curb, they are ridden doma vaquera style which is almost like Western (I'm sure someone out there knows the history of how Western riding came about, I'm sure it must have developed out Spanish cowboy riding taken over by the conquistadors - I'd love to know!) so they have little or no contact on the mouth. When I rode a horse trained this way in a snaffle, I automatically looked to take a contact and work from inside leg to outside hand. The horse, who went beautifully with a curb bit, didn't understand it at all and immediately set his jaw against the bit. Once I rode him with very little contact, as you would with a curb, he was perfect.

I don't know what the answer is to get him working correctly into the outside rein I'm afraid! With my own PRE (who was fine in a snaffle) we did a lot of work on bending from the inside leg only, stretching down into the contact and working long and low. He still doesn't take a real contact but you can place his neck where you want it and he works 'through' from behind more.

As for how the Spanish can train horses to be so fearful, unfortunately there are good and bad trainers the world over. Some use training aids (serratas in Spain, draw reins, and myriad others!) in the way they were intended and others use them to dominate and intimidate. It sounds like your horse was a victim of a very bad trainer

 

[B-B]

Think riding to and equal feel in both reins.

Keep them in them corridor between two legs and two hands. This will help straightness and with time, ability to follow them hand down to a stretch.

 

[j1ffy]

Think riding to and equal feel in both reins.

Keep them in them corridor between two legs and two hands. This will help straightness and with time, ability to follow them hand down to a stretch.

I agree this would work with a 'normal' horse, but with a Spanish trained horse that has only been ridden in a curb they don't understand having a 'feel' on the reins without the associated poll pressure, they just push against the contact.

The closest parallel may be with re-schooling a Western trained horse - but I've no idea how people go about doing that!