preconceived notions, stop anthromorphising- let's discuss!

[lassiesuca]

Something I’ve been pondering on all morning (no school for three months has meant my brain will be going on overdrive in thinking about horses!).
Anyway, the topic I wanted to discuss today was preconceived notions and the anthromorphism of our animals and the way we presume behaviours ‘x’ ‘y’ and ‘z’ are because of testing the boundaries or purposeful misbehaving. I want to challenge this belief and put forward my point; I don’t want this to turn into a slandering match where we end up not going anywhere in the discussion, I want us to debate our methods and put them forward and to not be afraid of them being pulled apart and questioned by one another. Please feel free to question me. I’m also not pretending to know the answers, and I don’t think anyone here should, what I THINK we should do, is use the points made and then evaluate them ourselves without the influence of others (that includes trainers and horsemen by the way !)

Most of us have our horses for pleasure and leisure and enjoy riding them, some of us enjoy competing others are just happy hackers. We may not consider ourselves serious horse-people, but we are ALL horse trainers and are responsible for a living animal who needs guidance and also needs to be trained ethically without his needs being compromised tremendously (if at all). This field of horsemanship really interests me, equine behaviour etc. I’m not talking about these cowboys who invent a method based on ‘equine body language’, but solid hard evidence that supports an equines response to a situation and allows us to progress in a way which is great for the horse and trainer.

My first question is for those who are in the ‘firm but fair’ category (okay now I’m stereotyping), or those who will not hesistate to punish for the littlest thing because it’s unwanted. If we get into the habit of punishing our horses for expressing themselves (whether it’s good or bad), I think we’re restricting our horses ability to learn more effectively. Let me elaborate; I’m sure many of you love to watch your horses playing in the field with their friends, happily running around or enjoying a good meal or bath. We allow them to express their ‘happy’ emotions. We allow them to let us know that. But if a horse begins to do something unwanted (perhaps stops at a jump for examples sake), and gets a smacked bum/neck/muzzle, we’ve punished this behaviour. Punishment has to be well timed to be effective- i.e. within three seconds of the unwanted behaviour occurring. But I think it doesn’t do any harm to first find out why they are behaving the way they are. If the horse is biting, WHY are they biting? Is it really a ‘testing the boundaries’ situation which many suppose or is it their defences arming to protect them against something or someone whom they find a threat- why is your horse biting you? What is it about his environment that is causing it? Never stop asking why?
Allowing our horses to express themselves is important, and it is also important that we keep our horses, ourselves and others in his environment safe too. I’m not denying that at all; but we can adapt our methods to allow him to experiment with behaviours; let him go through the unwanted behaviours and then reward him for the good stuff! If he’s being praised, not only will it decrease the frequency (until it ultimately becomes ‘extinct’), but also teaching him the right behaviour at the same time! Punishment only teaches them what NOT to do.

If we begin to base our beliefs on the work of a trainer without really exploring for ourselves, we then begin to stop ourselves from finding out more. Just because a certain trainer says it’s the language of equus or it’s what he discovered in the wild, we mustn’t rely on their interpretations to train our horses. We can listen and understand, then we should go and find out for ourselves!
Our horses, they are social animals who live in a herd and behave according to their environment. I think too much attention is focussed on what horses do in the wild, and not what horses do in a domestic situation. Yes, to a certain extent horses behave or show similar traits to those do in the wild, but being domesticated animals for 1000’s of years has meant that they have changed in terms of evolution (there’s a case study about horses hooves in the wild and the ones in a domestic environment, due to the conditions horses live and how it effects their behaviour). But how many of us walk around acting like monkeys? After all, that’s what we’ve evolved from, although we share similar traits with primates, we don’t walk around picking insects out of peoples hair or swing from trees (not usually anyway!). Equally though, it’s also unfair to presume that our horses behave out of naughtiness or spite to wind us up. They learn about reactions; just like children do- if anyone has ever laughed at a horses behaviour the first few times, and then the behaviour occurs again and this time you don’t find it so funny, don’t punish your horse for something you’ve reinforced- laughter has been known to reinforce behaviours in a horse!

I am not keen on the whole intolerance to unwanted behaviour really, because I think there are far more sophisticated ways to train and I think that we can apply them for our horses own good. But I’m not here to make you do that, I’m here to try and get you to question and look further into behaviours.
Whether it’s riding our horses, or working on the ground, we have a huge impact on the way they behave, we mustn’t shout or condemn them for this, instead we should try and see things from their point of view- I don’t mean pretend to be them, I mean that we must try and understand the reasons WHY they do things and the effects we have on them. Spend an hour watching your horse in his herd- instead of riding him. Watch the minute responses he has to his herd- watch how he deducts certain plants or patches of grass, or different horses/people. Horses are constantly thinking and listening and very intelligent animals- they wouldn’t have survived for all this time if they were not! Try and not presume their behaviour is because of something so trivial and try and get to the nitty gritty of their individual behaviour. Horses experience different emotions to us; ones which we physically cannot feel or even understand. We can stop behaviours with a slap, but whether or not we’ve achieved our training goal of the next behaviour is something else.

‘’the minute we open our minds to the impossible, we begin to find out the truth’’



I just want to reiterate though, that this thread isn't intended to offended or upset anyone, or attack a certain method or training system, it's more so that we can try and discuss our training methods and try and find out more about our own logic and rational as humans and how we treat our animals as a consequence.

 

[Fransurrey]

To those who accuse me of anthropomorphism I would counter-argue with the reasoning that it is equally if not more dangerous to be anthropocentric.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Wow, thats some essay there ! You make some very valid points, but perhaps it might be easier for those of us whose heads hurt now, if you could make some key statements for us to fight (sorry,debate) about.

 

[amandap]

To those who accuse me of anthropomorphism I would counter-argue with the reasoning that it is equally if not more dangerous to be anthropocentric.

Being anthropocentric is humans biggest failing imo. Is there such a thing as empathic anthropomorphism? I like to use human analogies and put myself (as far a possible) in my horses shoes. Oh, I mean hooves there.

 

[lassiesuca]

Hehe yay!

Anthrocentric- that's a new one, please do explain. But if I believe it's the total opposite, then I agree. I think it's important to find a middle ground, hence why I believe one shouldn't pretend to be a horse, instead we should try and find a mutual training ground which both horse and trainer can meet in the middle at!

Horserider- yes I'm a nightmare for this, I start out with some questions and then end up not asking them at all and going off on a major tangent :rollseyes:

Okay; how about...;

Does positive punishment have a place in training (positive punishment is the application of an aversive in the horses environment as a consequence of unwanted behaviour- i.e. a slap with the hand or whip). It's something I avoid in training, because I don't believe it has a place in TRAINING (emergencies, yes maybe). But training? I think we have far more efficient ways of training and understanding our horses and getting the results we desire.


Does dominance exist in the horse hierarchy? Or is it more of a assumed trait of horses? Is it the most effective way to train our horses? If you think so, why?

 

[Honey08]

I agree, quite a dissertation!

I'm of the firm but fair camp. Of course I try to understand why the horse is misbehaving. Most of the time I do know. Sometimes though, with a huge powerful animal such as a hunter, or a pony with a child, you do have to be firm before you totally know what the cause is, or else the horse learns that it doesn't have to respect the person that is struggling, and further problems ensue. You see many threads on here where novice rider/owners are having problems because they weren't firm and the horse learned that it didn't have to obey. Just because the handler is firm doesn't mean that they don't have fun/love their horse. I always think horses are much more secure when they know where they stand. Despite me being firm with my horses, whenever I walk through the fields with my dogs, the horses come over for a scratch and to say hello. I feel as though they treat me as a friend/part of the herd. Even after several months away at stud, mu grumpy mare who is awkward to catch for other people, came straight up for me. Yet she is told off for bad behaviour. Not often as she doesn't misbehave much.

 

[lassiesuca]

Hi Honey08, good points;

I'd like to take the 'firm but fair' POV a little further, if you don't mind?
When we talk about firm but fair, what do we mean? For example, I'd say I'm 'firm but fair' because I'm firm by trying to be consistent in training my horse. It's something I work on because I'm not an 'experienced' horse owner and he's my first proper horse who I've trained from a youngster. I've had to deal with the usual behaviours we experience when having a young horse, but I've not had to hit or shout at him, quite the opposite; I for one moment refuse to accept that it means I've not been 'firm'. I've just tackled it differently, and as a result I'm able to do the things I enjoy without feeling my safety is being compromised! The night before last, I took him out for a ride the first time in months and also in his new home, he was very anxious of his surroundings and his environment, so I decided to walk him along the roads; he's only 5 but even if he was 15, I'd still have done the same. I do get cross with the whole 'they should know better' argument and the way people do things to their horses because 'they deserve it'. I think it's unfair way of training and approaching our horses behaviours.

I'm not condemning those who slap their horses, there would of been a time where I would of, but I'm just trying to understand it now. I also appreciate horses are big strong animals.

I've been subjected to quite a lot of prejudice about the way I train. My boy used to be very mouthy and bargy, particularly around food and I was advised to never give him treats. Instead I began 'clicker training' him and using treats- which motivate him most, to train him. I got the usual 'bribery and coercing' of my horse; but it's more of just a way to reward him for his efforts and encourage it again- the right behaviour that is.

I agree that some situations we have to respond there and then for reasons of our safety, but if we are able to remove ourselves from the situation and take a step back, we can then look at it objectively. If the horse is pawing for example; before going to reprimand, try and work out why he is pawing. If he wants attention/food. Ignore him, let him do it, until he learns he achieves nothing from it. Then; when he stops, wait a few seconds and go back over and talk to him. Standing nicely he gets something! If you walk away and he does it again, do exactly as you just did. I did this, after three boughts of pawing, the behaviour stopped because he got nothing out of it!

With catching we sometimes have to try and work out why they don't want to be caught. My boy wouldn't let anyone catch him the other week and I wasn't there, so I was on the phone to my friend who was trying to get him and asked her what exactly she was doing. Instead of running after him and hiding the headcollar behind her back, I told her to have it at her side, and just stand my the gate and call him. Give it a few moments- he's not a very trusting horse and trusts two-three people. This is our next goal to work on, is getting him used to others handling him; as if I'm not there and there's an emergency, I want him to be able to walk with someone who he may not know so well. Punishing him won't do it; but understanding the behaviour and working with it, will hopefully allow him to earn trust for others too.

If a horse who runs away quite often, does it, then I do hesitate in blaming the horse, instead I look at the way they've been bought up. I've learnt that because it's me who mainly handles my horse; he's not used to being caught by anyone else! I can usually call him and he walks in by my side without being held- sometimes without a headcollar, but for others, it's a different story!

 

[zangersheide]

Hehe yay!



Okay; how about...;

Does positive punishment have a place in training (positive punishment is the application of an aversive in the horses environment as a consequence of unwanted behaviour- i.e. a slap with the hand or whip). It's something I avoid in training, because I don't believe it has a place in TRAINING (emergencies, yes maybe). But training? I think we have far more efficient ways of training and understanding our horses and getting the results we desire.


Does dominance exist in the horse hierarchy? Or is it more of a assumed trait of horses? Is it the most effective way to train our horses? If you think so, why?

I don't think positive punishment has a place in training, having discovered clicker training I am all for +R. I am getting brilliant results ( I would like to add that I don't click for EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME), there is a time and place for it, brilliant results and fast too.

I do think dominance exists in horses, I have a very dominant mare and I see her with my other mare, one minute she will be grooming her the next she will bite her, or turn her heels on her, for no reason , she does the same with me too (the biting not the kicking, although she has lifted her leg to me a couple of times).

Hi Amandap

 

[amandap]

Hehe yay!

Anthrocentric- that's a new one, please do explain.

A belief that humans are the centre of the Universe.

I'll just say, of course dominance exists in horse society. I believe it's how it is interpreted and 'used' or used as excuse by humans that is the issue for me.
I don't discuss dominance anymore.

 

[lassiesuca]

A belief that humans are the centre of the Universe.

I'll just say, of course dominance exists in horse society. I believe it's how it is interpreted and 'used' or used as excuse by humans that is the issue for me.
I don't discuss dominance anymore.

Amen! I agree absolutely!

Oooh the dominance debate fascinates me, there are so many interpretations of it and how it's used. I also agree entirely that people use it as an excuse.

Hah, humans, we are a rubbish species. My parents think I'm 'anti-humanist', I'm not, I just think we have egos too big for our own good!

 

[madlady]

OK taking your example of pawing - horses don't paw the ground at one another but they do do it at us humans when we tie them up.

I don't see my mare pawing at the ground as wanting attention, I have restricted her freedom by bringing her in from the field, tying her up and wanting her to stand still for what (to her) must seem like ages when normally she is allowed to wander free. When she paws I don't ignore her but I do give her some verbal reasurrance. This stops the pawing. Interestingly, during winter where she is stabled a lot more (sadly I do not have 24/7 365 turn out) then she does not paw when tied up as she is generally more restricted anyway.

 

[lassiesuca]

OK taking your example of pawing - horses don't paw the ground at one another but they do do it at us humans when we tie them up.

I don't see my mare pawing at the ground as wanting attention, I have restricted her freedom by bringing her in from the field, tying her up and wanting her to stand still for what (to her) must seem like ages when normally she is allowed to wander free. When she paws I don't ignore her but I do give her some verbal reasurrance. This stops the pawing. Interestingly, during winter where she is stabled a lot more (sadly I do not have 24/7 365 turn out) then she does not paw when tied up as she is generally more restricted anyway.

That's a really interesting way of looking at it and one I've not pondered on! However; I think it DOES depend on the situation. There may be all sorts of reasons why she is pawing. For example, at tea time when there is food around. The way I reassured myself it was more of an 'impatience' behaviour was because after ignoring him and him ultimately learning that standing quietly got him so love and attention, he will now happily stand tied up, with horses around him eating haynets etc without creating a fuss, and then he will get his one!

 

[Spudlet]

I tend to think that animals that are living as domesticated animals, and therefore exist in the human world, need human leadership. However there is more than one way of being a leader. 'Leadership' does not have to mean stomping about in big boots shouting like a sergeant-major on a bad hair day. In fact, quiet leadership is very often more effective with animals in my opinion and experience.

Does positive punishment have a place in training? I do not believe that positive punishment is an effective way to teach an animal to do something new. In fact, If applied at the correct moment, it can discourage unwanted behaviours but what it cannot do is address the underlying cause of the behaviour. You can stop a dog from barking when it's left alone with a shock collar, but you have not removed the cause of its anxiety, meaning that the anxiety may well just manifest itself through, for example, eating the walls.

 

[millreef]

lassiesuca stop writing and go riding - read WiltshireGuy's post

 

[lassiesuca]

lassiesuca stop writing and go riding - read WiltshireGuy's post

I've already been out today , although I don't just ride, I usually do groundwork! I want to discuss now

 

[zangersheide]

another thing I ponder is jealousy in horses (and of course other animals). I never really considered horses to get jealous of my attention, but maybe they do, and what has brought this to my attention is a couple of things. When I am in the stable with one of my mares she is aggressive to other horses around her (I asked if that is becxause she felt threatend with me around??), yet will be fine with them when I am not with her, also, when in the field if I am stroking one of them the others will come over (but I know that could be curiosity) but then they start seeing each other off.
So do horses feel jealousy or is that anthrmorposising??

 

[Honey08]

I always seem to feel that those into clicker training, or NH seem to be of the opinion that those that do slap/hit a horse do it ALL the time. Its actually very rare that a good horseman hits a horse. Its not necessary as they have an understanding between horse and handler. Its to do with body language mostly and studying behaviour - things that you are now learning as you gain experience with horse. re your young horse, if he has been well handled, he will learn by praise and repetition so will not need to be shouted at or slapped with a bit of luck. Usually the ones that need an occasional slap are the ones that have learned, or rather been taught, bad habits by not having consistant, firm training. Its not really their fault, but it can cause situations that are dangerous and it needs to be sorted out. Horses are like children or dogs - they are far from all the same, and anyone who thinks that ALL horses can be handled the same is not a horseman in my opinion. You have to be able to see what works for what horse, and when they are frightened, or when they are just being lazy/testing the water.

 

[lassiesuca]

Another big question!

Read my sig!
Also recommend ''Marthe Kiley Worthington's- Equine Education''

I'm only on Chapter 3, but my boy is it a fantastic book , it asks lots of questions which got my clogs turning!!
x

 

[Fransurrey]

another thing I ponder is jealousy in horses (and of course other animals). ...So do horses feel jealousy or is that anthrmorposising??

I believe that there is a physiological basis for emotions. So, if we were to propose that jealousy gives us the drive to fight for limited resources (food, shelter, mates), then yes, animals (including humans) do feel jealousy. Especially if they recognise humans as being providers of those resources.

btw, it's anthroPOmorphism/POcentricism. Sorry, I'm a real anal spell checker!!

 

[BonneMaman]

Wow, thats some essay there ! You make some very valid points, but perhaps it might be easier for those of us whose heads hurt now, if you could make some key statements for us to fight (sorry,debate) about.

Oh, god, yes I am with you - I fell asleep after the 2nd para and skipped directly to the responses ......

OP, stop thinking about all this so heavily man - just enjoy your horses like, I believe, the rest of us do.

 

[lassiesuca]

I always seem to feel that those into clicker training, or NH seem to be of the opinion that those that do slap/hit a horse do it ALL the time. Its actually very rare that a good horseman hits a horse. Its not necessary as they have an understanding between horse and handler. Its to do with body language mostly and studying behaviour - things that you are now learning as you gain experience with horse. re your young horse, if he has been well handled, he will learn by praise and repetition so will not need to be shouted at or slapped with a bit of luck. Usually the ones that need an occasional slap are the ones that have learned, or rather been taught, bad habits by not having consistant, firm training. Its not really their fault, but it can cause situations that are dangerous and it needs to be sorted out. Horses are like children or dogs - they are far from all the same, and anyone who thinks that ALL horses can be handled the same is not a horseman in my opinion. You have to be able to see what works for what horse, and when they are frightened, or when they are just being lazy/testing the water.

Sorry my apologies- I'm not assuming that all non-CT's are 'slappers'. That's my poor writing skills there, sorry.

Okay; I'm not into NH training... for example I don't really like the theories of Monty Roberts Join Up or Parelli or any of these 'natural' horsemen. I just feel that they base their training methods on wild horses and nothing else.

On another forum, I've been engaging in a two month long debate with a woman who follows NH and in the 'dominate or die' mind set- she thinks that despite seeing footage of my horse, he will hurt me soon because I've not dominated him. We discussed the word dominate, and she views it as being the 'alpha' horse and will not hesitate to kick or punch her horse if he does something she dislikes, yet condemns me for riding with a bit.


She's not the best representative of NH, in fairness. But I feel that in all systems, many of us follow the top trainers or gurus and base our opinions on their words. I think it's a case of experimenting for ourselves, working out what we see then discussing it with others and collaborating our notes. I like what AmandaP says about taking 'the best out of every method'.


In a short period of time I've fluctuated in my beliefs on all sorts of things, I've explored many - MR, Parelli, KFH tried them all out and now I'm here, and have spent a year doing clicker training now. I love it, and throughout that period of time I've gone from dismissing anything other than clicker to then keeping a more open mind. Now I'm at the point where I use clicker and am trying to learn as much as possible about equine behaviour through studies and my own observations!

But I am inclined to a good debate, I love nothing more!

 

[lassiesuca]

Bonnemamman, I do appreciate and enjoy my horse greatly.

In fact, I love every single second spent with him. But because of that very reason, I want to further my understanding of him and how I train him, so that he is as happy as possible I don't want to act on presumptions- I may enjoy myself, but I'd rather his happiness, as that is paramount to me.

 

[amandap]

I believe that there is a physiological basis for emotions. So, if we were to propose that jealousy gives us the drive to fight for limited resources (food, shelter, mates), then yes, animals (including humans) do feel jealousy. Especially if they recognise humans as being providers of those resources.

I agree and I have underestimated and sometimes not even considered this in the past.

 

[zangersheide]

Honey08, I am not anal or fanatical about CT, in fact, I do adopt a fair but firm approach to my training but, I think CT has a very positive place in training, and has helped me accomplish things a lot quicker than we would have done normally with my very difficult mare. Don't get me wrong, we had to be very clear and firm at the beginning of her training (but we didn't once take a whip to her, or smack her), that said, if she tries to kick me or bite me she does get a slap (I have tried lots of different methods and rightly or wrongly, the slap works best in her case, I once tried something that Monty suggested which was if a horse goes to bite you run you foot over the coronet band and this should distract the horse from biting you, it made my horse worse and she violently went for me, I also tried the shouting and waving your arms about, again she went for me more. Now I just push her head away from me if she is narking at me, but if she gets me by surprise and bites me yes she gets a slap on the shoulder.
I do think each horse needs treating in a very different manner, I have a very sensitive gelding who even if I raise my voice quivers.

 

[Foxhunter49]

I would put myself in the 'firm but fair' category. I will correct for any behaviour I do not want, this does not mean that I punish, but I'll correct.

I start the moment a horse arrives in the yard, be it a new foal or an older horse.
All my horses have chains across the doors during the day and if I go into the stable they have to move back to give me room, when they are going out and I drop the chain that are not allowed to walk out the door until I tell them, if they do they are made to go back and stand across the back of the stable and wait. This is done firmly but not roughly.
If the horse is a door barger then the correction will be rougher.

My youngsters are together in a large loose area in the main barn and they know, from when they are foals that me, going in to feed them, means that they stand back. They learn this with their mothers and it just continues when they are weaned, with firm corrections if they try otherwise.

YOUR QUOTE :- let him go through the unwanted behaviours and then reward him for the good stuff

I will emphatically disagree with you over this.

Example: Two year old colt suddenly decides that walking on his two back legs is 'fun' he is only expressing himself and wanting to play as he does with other colts. Get a 16 hand on its hind legs and it is not funny. So, according to you I am meant to ignore this and when he finally stops it, say after six times going vertical and praise him when he walks on?
Next day he starts the same nonsense and thinks it is fun, goes up to high and smashes himself on the concrete of the yard or, does it when you go out into the field to catch him - both situations I have come across. Hard to praise a horse when it has smashed you with a front foot or is standing there with his poll and withers smashed.

Sorry, my dear, if he goes up then I will correct it. I will of suspected something like this was going to happen by previous misbehaviour which has been ignored and be prepared. When he goes up I will rap him across his back legs therefore attacking his 'security' making him vulnerable when he is on his hind legs. He might try it a couple of times but no more than that if the corrections are done immediately and I would say 3 seconds is to slow.

You say that because horses have been in the service of humans they have changed from wild horses but I disagree. Put them in a herd situation and the same rules apply as with a herd of wild horses. The instincts are still there just as they are with some humans. You say that as humans we do not go through each other looking for bugs - ever had head lice? What does a parent do in that case but examine and destroy the lice. We might not eat them as apes will but we do examine for bugs although, thankfully they are not rampant!

I agree that we should always look for the reason WHY especially if behaviour changes and the horse starts acting out of character or is not doing something when ridden that it normally does with ease. However, when a horse tries to treat me as it would another horse by using its strength and force to try and get its own way then I will be the first to correct firmly and if the behaviour continues then I will give that animal cause to realise that if he is trying to get the better of me by using strength and force then I will show him that I too have strength and force to correct - the instant he tries it on. If I am not in a position to do so then I will ignore it and set him up to try again when I am prepared.

I allow, to a certain extent, my horses to express themselves. When they are fit and well and put in a 'whoopee' buck when we start to canter because they are feeling well I will not punish them. I have one horse who is cheeky, and I will throw his rug on and go to pick up another and he will pull it off. The same horse in the winter when I am wearing a wooly hat will nuzzle at my head and take the hat, rush to the back of the stable to his water manger and wait until I am nearly there and dunk it in the water before handing it back to me. I do not punish him. I threaten him and poke him but he knows that I do not mean it. I let him do it because he was classed as dangerous when he arrived, was treated strictly and accepted the new rules and as he behaved as I wanted, the boundaries widened and he has become a character that everyone loves. He knows the difference between accepted and unaccepted behaviour if he pushes it a bit to far a quick "Eh!' and he is fast back in line.

Correction is part of nature, rules are there for all animals and for a reason. For any animal corrections done at the right time do not cause resentment but rather give them relief from trying to take on the responsibilities of leader.

 

[Changes]

I would put myself in the 'firm but fair' category. I will correct for any behaviour I do not want, this does not mean that I punish, but I'll correct.

I start the moment a horse arrives in the yard, be it a new foal or an older horse.
All my horses have chains across the doors during the day and if I go into the stable they have to move back to give me room, when they are going out and I drop the chain that are not allowed to walk out the door until I tell them, if they do they are made to go back and stand across the back of the stable and wait. This is done firmly but not roughly.
If the horse is a door barger then the correction will be rougher.

My youngsters are together in a large loose area in the main barn and they know, from when they are foals that me, going in to feed them, means that they stand back. They learn this with their mothers and it just continues when they are weaned, with firm corrections if they try otherwise.

YOUR QUOTE :- let him go through the unwanted behaviours and then reward him for the good stuff

I will emphatically disagree with you over this.

Example: Two year old colt suddenly decides that walking on his two back legs is 'fun' he is only expressing himself and wanting to play as he does with other colts. Get a 16 hand on its hind legs and it is not funny. So, according to you I am meant to ignore this and when he finally stops it, say after six times going vertical and praise him when he walks on?
Next day he starts the same nonsense and thinks it is fun, goes up to high and smashes himself on the concrete of the yard or, does it when you go out into the field to catch him - both situations I have come across. Hard to praise a horse when it has smashed you with a front foot or is standing there with his poll and withers smashed.

Sorry, my dear, if he goes up then I will correct it. I will of suspected something like this was going to happen by previous misbehaviour which has been ignored and be prepared. When he goes up I will rap him across his back legs therefore attacking his 'security' making him vulnerable when he is on his hind legs. He might try it a couple of times but no more than that if the corrections are done immediately and I would say 3 seconds is to slow.

You say that because horses have been in the service of humans they have changed from wild horses but I disagree. Put them in a herd situation and the same rules apply as with a herd of wild horses. The instincts are still there just as they are with some humans. You say that as humans we do not go through each other looking for bugs - ever had head lice? What does a parent do in that case but examine and destroy the lice. We might not eat them as apes will but we do examine for bugs although, thankfully they are not rampant!

I agree that we should always look for the reason WHY especially if behaviour changes and the horse starts acting out of character or is not doing something when ridden that it normally does with ease. However, when a horse tries to treat me as it would another horse by using its strength and force to try and get its own way then I will be the first to correct firmly and if the behaviour continues then I will give that animal cause to realise that if he is trying to get the better of me by using strength and force then I will show him that I too have strength and force to correct - the instant he tries it on. If I am not in a position to do so then I will ignore it and set him up to try again when I am prepared.

I allow, to a certain extent, my horses to express themselves. When they are fit and well and put in a 'whoopee' buck when we start to canter because they are feeling well I will not punish them. I have one horse who is cheeky, and I will throw his rug on and go to pick up another and he will pull it off. The same horse in the winter when I am wearing a wooly hat will nuzzle at my head and take the hat, rush to the back of the stable to his water manger and wait until I am nearly there and dunk it in the water before handing it back to me. I do not punish him. I threaten him and poke him but he knows that I do not mean it. I let him do it because he was classed as dangerous when he arrived, was treated strictly and accepted the new rules and as he behaved as I wanted, the boundaries widened and he has become a character that everyone loves. He knows the difference between accepted and unaccepted behaviour if he pushes it a bit to far a quick "Eh!' and he is fast back in line.

Correction is part of nature, rules are there for all animals and for a reason. For any animal corrections done at the right time do not cause resentment but rather give them relief from trying to take on the responsibilities of leader.

Excellent post.

 

[amandap]

YOUR QUOTE :- let him go through the unwanted behaviours and then reward him for the good stuff

I will emphatically disagree with you over this.

I think it depends here myself. Letting a horse 'go through' a behaviour can in some circumstances reinforce that behaviour even if you then reward the 'good' after imo. This is not a scientific reasoning just my thinking. Some behaviours have to be discouraged/prevented, not just ignored or they may escalate, mouthing for example.

You say that because horses have been in the service of humans they have changed from wild horses but I disagree.

I disagree as well. I do not believe horses have changed at all really. I believe they react as horses to the environment and situations we put them in and expose them to. They always imo reflect the impact we humans have on them both physically and mentally. If we had changed them feral horses would not revert to wild behaviours and social structures etc. so easily and successfully.

Correction is part of nature, rules are there for all animals and for a reason. For any animal corrections done at the right time do not cause resentment but rather give them relief from trying to take on the responsibilities of leader.

Again I think it depends on what type of 'correction' and when. I do agree correction has a place and I use it frequently. If I ask one of my horses to stand still and they move, I will correct them by returning them to where they were and repeat my command, usually a verbal 'stand', then reward with 'good boy', stroke, treat, whatever is appropriate for that horse. I wont let them wander off and wait till they stand somewhere else again to reward them.

A note on dominance in my world.
I would say dominance is part of nature. I would say that we need to look at what aspects of 'dominance', or meaning of that word we want to use in our relationship with horses though. I think we must be aware it exists and that aggressive dominance exists between horses and take this into account in our management. I don't think aggressive dominance has a part in horse/human relationships except in extreme circumstances.

 

[Golf Girl]

Okay; I'm not into NH training... for example I don't really like the theories of Monty Roberts Join Up or Parelli or any of these 'natural' horsemen. I just feel that they base their training methods on wild horses and nothing else.

I find this a very strange statement to make! They base their training methods on their understanding of the basic instincts and behaviours inherent in the species. Without that, how else could you ever hope to achieve communication and cooperation between horse and human?

 

[Stacey6897]

Interesting post!

I try to come at training my horse from the angle of him training me, I know that whatever I do with him, he's studying me as much as I'm studying him, everything I do, I try and think of the effect that his behaviour is having on my behaviour, and the conclusions he's going to reach. I'm training him to train me, in simple terms, horse likes treats and praise, so I will try to explain to him, what he can do to get me to give him treats and praise, or whatever it is he wants.

Keeping this in mind whenever I'm with my horse, encourages me to be consistent and always fair. We all do it to a certain extent, but in keeping to it, he is fully aware that my behaviour is influenced by his, when I ask him to do something, he'll think about what I'm asking rather than reacting.

I would put myself in the firm but fair camp, my horse knows the meaning of the word 'No', I'd very rarely hit him, I can't remember an occasion, I might give him a poke or a pinch with fingertips if he's squishing me, mostly to remind the ginagorous beastie that there's a tiny being on the end of his rope when he's distracted.

 

[Jimbol]

It is funny how people like to replace the word punish with correct, to correct would suggest that the behaviour is removed instantly, however i find that those who correct their horses tend to have repeated bouts of this behaviour.

I think it is becoming accepted that the ultimate tools for behavioural conditioning are +Reinforcement and -Punishment.

Do we know the true nature of horses and then does the horse in the herd's behaviour have significant parallels with the domesticated horse? I would conclude that any assumption can be potentially harmful, anthropomorphic or otherwise.

I would also not cros reference NH with clicker training they are poles appart if you were to actually study them.