PREDICAMENT!!: FAT HORSE ONLY ALLOWED HAYLAGE :(

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willow88

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Hi everyone,

Just a short post to ask for opinions/advice?

I have a good doer who has just moved onto a yard with me. Unfortunately we were unaware that we are ONLY allowed to use yard owners haylage which is incredibly lush and turned out on a huge (INCREDIBLY LUSH again) pasture with other mares. She had already put on a little weight, nothing problematic, as she had been out of work for a little while, shes not getting back into full work and the belly and filthy fat crest is growing day by day ...

Having spoken to other liveries they all (40 odd) seem to mention that their horses or friends horses have had laminitis at one point or other on this yard. Really not surprising in the slightest to me. My management protocol thus far is 12 hours in (during day) 12 hours out (at night). Haylage given in day when in in 2 haynets (Ie, one haynet inside the other). She is worked by me once a day if not twice if I have the time. Thoughts???

Because I have to pay to use his haylage I dont want to have to buy any other feed to give her unless it lasts and its sure to help keep weight under control as otherwise costs rack up!

THANK YOU EVERYONE!

A x
 
I can see your predicament.

Would your horse wear a muzzle? Could you section a small area off?

Have you spoken to the YO? I know from experience how helpful/unhelpful YO's can be, but if you dont ask you dont get :)
 
Absolutely ridiculous situation and you have to move, it's a welfare issue if you don't. Either the YO allows horses to eat hay (which is all that most horses need) and implements a sensible grass management system or you leave. While you look for another yard make sure all haylage is double netted, not sure if you can soak haylage but if you can, do it and do it for a while to get rid of some of the goodness.
 
Muzzle only thing havent done that I have been contemplating and may see how she copes with one.

In the mean time yes we have only been on site for 2 weeks and it took her a good few days/the first week to properly settle so obv annoyed about idea of moving again .. especally as I thought this place was a bit of a find.

It looks beautiful and I think facilities are unrivalled in the area but unfortunately yes I have spoken to YO and its his way or the high way. A friend and I had to do 'operation hay' where we sneaked in a couple of nets of hay to mix with the haylage to at least give her half a chance to adjust! I am in contact with another yard down the road who currently has a waiting list, other yards are too far away (no car at present) or have no schooling facilities.

Yep haylage is already double netted

Thanks guys x
 
I would move tbh I wouldn't keep my ponies anywhere where I couldn't control their diets to suit them.

Did you not ask before you moved there if you had to buy your own or where your horse would be grazing, did you not look around the fields?
 
Is the yard owner prepared to pay the vets bills when your horse goes down with laminitis? In my experience haylage is out of the question for a good doer! I would move yards surely no yard can dictate what you feed your own horse it seems crazy but having my own place for the past 20 years perhaps I am out of date how yards work these days.
 
Hi guys,

This is the general consensus I am coming to.

I did speak to the yard owner about grazing before move and I am happy for her to be in the field as could restrict grazing but wasnt aware that we HAD to use his haylage. He said that we could use his haylage at an extra fee each week.. didnt mention it was his way or high way. Theres other things that I dont like about his management; personal things like him being hard to talk to when addressing matters.. fact we are only allowed to use shavings, and not allowed to let any friends on yard help me with my mare; eg feed her or put her out as we have to employ their services instead at additional charge of course (yeah im serious!). Also he does not poo-pick fields and makes us worm horses; pony gets rather unwell after wormers and not allowed to do any other method of worming, have used intelligent worming (egg counts) for ages and pay them by direct debit; all had to change for this yard. At the end of the day these other things are management decisions that he can make and I accepted before the move as its a beautiful place with fab facilities and at good price and a good rep.. or so I thought!. I dont mind fussy owners as long as theyre fussy for a reason... but this feeding issue ... where's the common sense? Especially with the history of laminitics at yard!!

Also he 'forgot' to mention to me that only 6 weeks ago his yard was given the clear for strangles. Yes I am still FUMING about this.
 
Haylage has less sugar than hay so as long as you are controlling the amount fed and are exercising her accordingly there shouldn't be a problem. Be sure you are aware of her weight and the weight of what she is getting. I have been told to factor in grazing time on good grazing as 1 kg per hour out.
 
There is a pot running right now in new lounge about how wonderful full time yards are, this is exactly why I disagree even DIY yards but you have to buy their haulage. Actually my good doer gets haulage but he only gets a small net when he comes in at 4pm to last him the night and heis ridden, seems to be working. Good luck
 
My two are good doers. I have them in during the day (on hay at the moment) and out with muzzles at night - I would try that in your situation. Lots of work would help her too...
 
willow88 said:
(NOTE: Am not allowed to move fields either ... I know... madness!!!)
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Not really - you moved on to a yard that offered excellent grazing. Most would kill for that.

Get yourself some straw to mix in with the haylage to feed when the horse is in - or if that's not possible soak the haylage for a couple of hours prior to feeding.

And when turned out, put a grazing muzzle on.

Really, it's not so difficult to manage a fat horse if you just apply a bit of common sense.........
 
willow88 said:
Hi guys,

This is the general consensus I am coming to.

I did speak to the yard owner about grazing before move and I am happy for her to be in the field as could restrict grazing but wasnt aware that we HAD to use his haylage. He said that we could use his haylage at an extra fee each week.. didnt mention it was his way or high way. Theres other things that I dont like about his management; personal things like him being hard to talk to when addressing matters.. fact we are only allowed to use shavings, and not allowed to let any friends on yard help me with my mare; eg feed her or put her out as we have to employ their services instead at additional charge of course (yeah im serious!). Also he does not poo-pick fields and makes us worm horses; pony gets rather unwell after wormers and not allowed to do any other method of worming, have used intelligent worming (egg counts) for ages and pay them by direct debit; all had to change for this yard. At the end of the day these other things are management decisions that he can make and I accepted before the move as its a beautiful place with fab facilities and at good price and a good rep.. or so I thought!. I dont mind fussy owners as long as theyre fussy for a reason... but this feeding issue ... where's the common sense? Especially with the history of laminitics at yard!!

Also he 'forgot' to mention to me that only 6 weeks ago his yard was given the clear for strangles. Yes I am still FUMING about this.
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I think I know the yard you are at. And if it's the one I think then it is excellently run, and has a wonderful reputation. I stabled there for around 15 years. I'm not sure why you are fuming about the strangles issue - the yard is clear, and has been signed off by the vets as such.

As for poo picking the fields, again if it's the yard I think you're at - then the fields are regularly harrowed and rolled (they are simply too big to poo pick, but I guess you could have a go if you wanted to;)).

It's also a business, so if a livery needs help doing their horse, of course the YO is going to want to do it and charge for it - it's how he makes his money.

The haylage that you have to use is grown on the farm especially for the liveries, and is excellent quality. So whilst it may not suit you to feed it, by the winter when you are feeding as much as you want for very little money you'll be hugely grateful for your reduced feed bills.

As for the worming issue - it can be contentious, but on such a large yard you do all need to be on the same programme.

At the end of the day, if it doesn't suit you move. There will be 10 people queuing up behind you for your stable.
 
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I'd muzzle- Id probably spend the extra and buy a green guard rather than a rubber bucket type as she will be wearing it a fair time.
I too ended up on a perfect sounding yard to have "rules" thrown at me slowly after id moved in. I ended up opposite to you though, Restricted turn out all year but no hay avaliable at all (from anywhere at one point!)
Mixing decent straw into the haylage sounds a good plan to me but i suspect if your not allowed to bring hay and bedding ion Straw will fall under this umberella also?
 
Definately muzzle, they are brilliant. I have a very good doer who can live off air and with muzzles and exercise 5/6 days a week, (ranging from an hour schooling/jumping to 5 hours if hacking!) You can finally call her a decent weight :) She's always been very fat in the summer and many people have suspected she was pregnant :O but you can finally feel some ribs and she is so much fitter and happier to work.

She has a muzzle on all of the time whilst out, and is brought in for work,to get out the sun and have a muzzle break for about 5 hours a day. She has a trickle ball with pony nuts to play with and a flake of hay to nibble at- but she much prefers the trickle ball and it lasts her hours

I hate silly livery rules :( so glad i'm on a quiet DIY!
 
I am not too sure about sugars in hay v haylage, as far as I am aware carbohydrate content will vary with the grass species and the stage of growth so that hay cut before 22nd June will be less stalky [fibre] and higher in fructans [which break down in to sugars] if cut later from the same field.
In my experience, haylage is often cut before hay and therefore on average it will be higher in sugars. [If the grass is cut later in the year it will be higher in fibre than early cut grass].
Fructan levels in grass vary over a day, this is why many turnout at night when fructan levels are lower.

I quote
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01818.html
" Detrimental Effects of Feeding High Fructan Forage or Hay
...............fructan is a complex carbohydrate and is not like simple sugars or starch. Typically forages or hay are higher in fructan than a grain-based feed. A feed can be low in sugar and/or starch but if it has a large amount of fructan, problems occur in the hindgut. Remember that most of the fructan is fermented in the hindgut. "
" When excessive fructan arrives at the cecum and large colon (hindgut), the bacterial flora is overwhelmed, the normal gut bacteria can die, increased levels of the digestive derivatives from fructan called volatile fatty acids are formed and this can cause digestive upset and colic.
When abrupt changes like this occur in the bacterial flora, the results can be local inflammation in the hindgut, endotoxins from the dying bacteria in the gut are released, and laminitis can be one of the outcomes. " end of Quote.

We horse owners learn to judge forage on composition and smell and moisture content, an in my experience haylage is often higher in sugars, judged soley on the energy levels of a horse fed on it.
To summarise, it is a complex subject, complex carbohydrates break down in to sugars when they are digested.
P.S. soak the hay to remove sugars and you will be feeding a hi fibre forage.
 
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I do have to wonder why you moved your very good doer to a yard with lush grazing?! the complete oposite of what you need!! never mind the haylage..

I would suggest you strictly limit the amount of haylage you feed - and probably soak it before feeding too. My 17.2hh lami prone gelding gets about 4kg hay when in during the day (he has some left in his net when I get there in the evening so he can't be too starving!) and is out overnight on good (but not overly lush) grass. With this and an hours work 5 days a week I'm just about keeping his waistline under control but I have bought a muzzle for occasions when I am unable to exercise him as much as I'd like. Perhaps you could stick a muzzle on your mare a couple of days a week?

The fact that so many horses have come down with lami at this yard can hardly be blamed on the y/o... more than likely ignorant owners buring their heads in the sand thinking it wikll never happen to them!! This year has been a very bad year for really lush grass... it still is very lush even in the height of 'summer' on yards where grazing would usually be considered poor.

If you're really not happy - the worming programme is obviously bothering you and I'm not sure how you expected intelligent worming to work on pasture that isn't poo picked?! then I'd suggest you move to somewhere with a lot less grass.... the green grass on the other side of the fence is rarely a good thing in my experience. ;)
 
willow88 said:
... where's the common sense? Especially with the history of laminitics at yard!!
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Again, if it's the yard I think it is - there is actually no history of laminitis at the yard, because everyone takes the management of their horses very seriously. Although of course, one or two may always slip through the net.

As for having to sneak hay in to allow your horse to adjust - you had no reason to do that. The YO would have been quite understanding about you bringing in a couple of nets to do a change over......
 
Thank you to all,

Amymay fair enough sticking up for YO... It is easy to get carried away on here I think with your troubles and worries when others stick up for you! :) Sounds like you may well know him, do you live near Okehampton per chance? ;)

He isnt the devil reincarnated by any regards its just from a management perspective I think its just SUCH a change of situ to what we had before that I needed more thoughts and advice from what I already had spinning round in my head so thanks everyone for your help and muzzle clearly the next step which was an idea I was toying with... Im a very overprotective mother to my big old mare Ive had her a long while and never seen her waist grow so quickly!! No guys am not allowed straw on site. I suppose there is that inclin of always having had her on a DIY yard for years where everything is left up to you and believing I know whats best for her to then find out I have to change more things than I thought. I accepted all other changes, just the feeding thing that Im finding an issue to be honest!! And when you put all other things together which niggle in your mind, changing yards sounds like a good idea with the acceptance that maybe I made a mistake...

It really is a beauitful yard and if it didnt appear so well managed with abundant facilities I wouldnt have moved, and a good rep wouldnt have miraculously appeared from nowhere.

He has been cleared but I have spent many years in the past dealing with strangles and know it can linger anywhere, water troughs, other fomites, false negativesand how horses can easily be reinfected and there is a fair bit of horse movement on and off the yard... I would have thought it to be common curtosy to mention it; its one of the first things that all the other liveries mentioned when I came onto the yard! :( This is what upset me on this subject, when I asked him he said hed 'forgotton to mention'! Hmmm...

Anyway, thank you everyone for your help; off to steal the husbands car to get a muzzle!!

Abi x
 
Another thing to think about is a hay replacer - Hi fi lite, or similar, in order to cut your haylage ration.

Good luck, you'll figure it out.
 
willow88 said:
It looks beautiful and I think facilities are unrivalled in the area but unfortunately yes I have spoken to YO and its his way or the high way.
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Then take the high way. IMO it doesnt matter how pretty this place is or what facilities it has, the YO wont allow you to look after your horses in a basic manner without risking a very serious health problem (ie. laminitis). He sounds like a total idiot. I would leave immediately. I dont really see why you seem to be more worried about the haylage than the fact your horse out on lush grass which is just as bad, if not worse...
 
willow88 said:
He has been cleared but I have spent many years in the past dealing with strangles and know it can linger anywhere, water troughs, other fomites, false negativesand how horses can easily be reinfected and there is a fair bit of horse movement on and off the yard... I would have thought it to be common curtosy to mention it; its one of the first things that all the other liveries mentioned when I came onto the yard! :( This is what upset me on this subject, when I asked him he said hed 'forgotton to mention'! Hmmm...


Abi x
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Strangles cannot live in watertroughs or linger anywhere for long periods of time (over 24-48 hours) other than inside the horse. The only way your horse stands a chance of getting infected is if she comes into contact with the nasal discharge, is in direct contact with a horse displaying symptoms or with an undiagnosed carrier. Most carriers are undiagnosed as they do not show obvious symptoms themselves and have been carrying it for years...but given that your yard has been given the all clear I would have expected them to have ben swabbed or blood tested so I really don't think you have anything to be concerned about.
 
Honey chop make a chaff which is just oat straw, no coating or anything, I dilute HiFi lite with it for my fatty (he wont eat it on its own) to keep the calories down. Its obviously very expensive compared to a bale of straw though!
 
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