Premature Navicular diagnosis...

grhands

grhands

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I just wanted to post this to maybe give a little hope to anyone who goes through a similar situation as I have over the last week.

The vet came to me on Thursday after I expressed some concern over the way my boy was standing...

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...Anyhow, the vet came out and eyeballed him and my photographs and warned me that to him this looked like the onset of navicular disease. Needless to say I was devastated. We were booked in to the clinic the next day for investigation.

We went in to the clinic on Friday. It was a bit of an emotional roller-coaster! He trotted up v-slightly lame on his near fore. Almost unnoticeable, he just nodded slightly when he was trotting on the lunge. I think the vet said it was about 1/10 on the lameness scale.

Anyhow this lameness went after a Palmer digital nerve block so I immediately thought the worst. So he proceeded to go in for X-rays and to my huge relief they came up pretty much clear, other than very slight darkening to both outside edges of the navicular bone. So, the vet thinks the foot pain is down to very poor shoeing. I've only had him two months and vet thinks this is a progressive thing. His feet were not trimmed enough width ways and his foot was wider than it was long on the near fore which was leading to his heel dropping. Vet has popped him on navilox and suggested egg bar shoes although he's still barefoot on his front feet at the mo as he seems so comfortable.

I've lunged him in the school today and yesterday and he seems much happier. Vet did say to be vigilant though for any further signs as this just could be the v-v-early signs of navicular disease however I'm a nurse and can read x-rays pretty well and saw nothing that would worry me re-darkness on the bone. The navicular bone was very clearly defined at the edges, just that bit of 'fluff' at the sides. Fingers crossed things will be OK from here on in.

Just trying to decide if/when to get him re-shod. That was a horrid couple of days. So, the show isn't over til the fat lady sings so to speak. Beware of a quick navicular diagnosis as I went through 24hrs of hell unnecessarily.
 
grhands said:
So, the vet thinks the foot pain is down to very poor shoeing. I've only had him two months and vet thinks this is a progressive thing. His feet were not trimmed enough width ways and his foot was wider than it was long on the near fore which was leading to his heel dropping. Vet has popped him on navilox and suggested egg bar shoes although he's still barefoot on his front feet at the mo as he seems so comfortable.
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Keep reading what you've written.......at what point did he become comfortable.......your horse is telling you what's right for him very clearly.

Good luck.
 
I am surprised that you would take any notice whatsoever of this vet telling you that shoes and drugs are the answer, when from your previous post, which was pulled because it criticised and identified the dealer who you bought him from, this vet was already talking surgical procedures before he had even had the horse in for an x-ray.

I'm glad that your horse has clear xrays because that makes it clear that his issue are soft tissue damage, and barefoot has a great chance of resolving that as you have already seen in a very short space of time.

Bar shoes and drugs? I'd change my vet if I were you.
 
Sorry to hear you have had such a tough time. I agree with the others, keep his shoes off and see how he goes, you may be pleasantly surprised! Do lots of research into barefoot hooves, it will be worthwhile!
 
i think the diagnosis is exactly that - that he would get navicular if allowed to continue being shod like he has been - mine did - i didnt see it was the farrier til too late.

Take his back shoes off too and see how he goes - he is already saying he is more comfortable. Navilox is expensive and helps the blood flow better to the foot - exactly what the foot does anyway without a shoe!
 
Thanks for your detailed replies. Would going barefoot be the best solution perminantly do you think? Or just for a set period? Forgive me I'm new to all this. Can you recommend a decent farrier locally that could look after his bare feet for the duration? I'm on the bucks / oxon border. Thanks all. I have to say he's going so beautifully and free on the lunge at the moment that the evidence speaks for itself. I'm willing to give this a good go and I'm certainly reluctant to put shoes back on quickly.
 
I think you have answered your own question, if he is going well need we say more.
As for someone who can help, I am sure others will come up with names, I would always go by word of mouth, plus making sure your vet is aware of the trimmers/farriers work.
Good luck
 
kezimac said:
i think the diagnosis is exactly that - that he would get navicular if allowed to continue being shod like he has been - mine did - i didnt see it was the farrier til too late.

Take his back shoes off too and see how he goes - he is already saying he is more comfortable. Navilox is expensive and helps the blood flow better to the foot - exactly what the foot does anyway without a shoe!
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This Totally and utterly!!!
My Tb failed a flexion test, X-rays were clear and I believed the vet that bar shoes and gel pads were the treatment, 12 months later we got a navicular diagnosis (from a different vet), more of the same i.e. shoes had progressed the problem rather than fixed it.

If i'd have known then what I know now those shoe's would have been off and stayed off and i'd have saved myself a whole load of heartache! But back then I was totally convinced that a weedy TB couldn't possibly manage without shoes. :D

Leave the shoes off, do lots of research and save yourself the grief.
 
moorman said:
So glad your horse has started to go, and feel better a since the shoes have come off.
Please, Please I beg of you do not put EGG bars on those feet.
I very rarely get worked up about things but Egg bars do it for me.
As a referral farrier I have spent the last 35+ years shoeing and trimming referral cases, one thing that most of us farriers and I am happy to say a tremendous amount of vets have defiantly come to agreement on is that EGG bars are no help to the foot long term what so ever.
The reason being there is no support for the centre of the foot thus leading to prolapsed soles and damaged walls/bars in the caudal area, all the damage happening about 4/6 weeks after the shoes have been fitted so it appears not to be the shoe.
If (and I mean if) you are going to shoe those feet please get fitted wide sectioned, thin, short tongued hart bars to that the heels can repair along with the DF tendon being supported.
I now treat my referrals barefoot, it is the most efficient, long term and natural way to get great feet.
To do this you must have a vet/farrier that is all in favour of you doing it.
Fig 12 on this page might be of some help
http://www.rockfoot.com/why.html

Far be it for me question recommended treatments, but I think you will find the vet has recommended Navilox to help with circulation, well you will find that the foot has a great circulatory system when it is allowed to work efficiently.

As a farrier I am still asked to assist farriers when performing surgical shoeing, and although I might not think it is necessarily the best way of going about the problem, I will however always assist due to my firm belief that the well-being of the animal is paramount, and I would rather the right shoe was fitted than someone ‘has a go’ which believe me happens more than it should.
Whatever you decide ( and think about the egg bars) I wish you all the luck, and I am sure you will have a very happy and sound horse.
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I've just had a good look at this site and I'm amazed and a bit baffled. I've had a fair few years out of riding and competition yet I have still come across this. Surely therefore a great deal of professional riders have also come across this seemingly watertight evidence. I'm convinced that this is the way forward so why are there still so many horses with shoes on out there! Forgive me if I'm asking a stoopid question but it doesn't seem to make any sense to me. What is the logical reasoning behind keeping traditional shoes on?
 
i reckon alot of owners just find it easier to have shoes on - so can feed whatever, dont have to watch sugar intake, can be on grass with no issues and dont notice what barefoot ppl call footiness (essentially low grade lami) til it becomes full blown laminitis.

Owners with barefoot horses, usually watch sugar intake, grass intake, balance minerals, can tell if horse if footy and act on it immediately before it turns into laminitis. If horse is doing alot on road know what days to use boots if needs be - Most horses can be barefoot and in work - whereas not all owners can be barefoot horse owners!!!
 
That sounds very much like my horse. Mild lameness which nerveblocked to the foot, clean x rays and approach was various attempts with remedial farriery to get him sound.eggbars weren't suggested for him but only because he pulled shoes virtually weekly and was prone to thrush. But he had specially shaped shoes and carbon fibre hoof supports. After 6 months no improvement and we MRI'd and he had soft tissue damage ( ddft, dsil and collateral ligaments in both feet.
After box rest and more attempt at farriery and a course of catrophen he was worse than ever and he went down to Rockley, (you can search for him on the blog if you search for Frankie) and is now back in work including jumping.

Whatever you decide to do, my piece of advice is take pictures of his feet, from the side, front and the bottom of the foot. Do this at regular intervals so you can see progress. My vet and the specialist farrier who shod him were convinced they were seeing improvements because that's what they expected to see.
The pictures tell a different story and show a foot getting worse and worse.
 
grhands said:
I've just had a good look at this site and I'm amazed and a bit baffled. I've had a fair few years out of riding and competition yet I have still come across this. Surely therefore a great deal of professional riders have also come across this seemingly watertight evidence. I'm convinced that this is the way forward so why are there still so many horses with shoes on out there! Forgive me if I'm asking a stoopid question but it doesn't seem to make any sense to me. What is the logical reasoning behind keeping traditional shoes on?
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the main reason is "that is how it's always been done or what everyone else does. " also many people wouldn't know a good or bad foot if it hit them in the face. They are quite happy to believe whatever their farrier tells them.
Another reason is that it is much easier to abdicate responsibility to a farrier. That way all you have to do is pick up the phone every six weeks and ask him to come. If you want a barefoot horse you have to take total responsibility for that horse and that means learning a lot about feet and diet.
It is no longer your farrier's (or trimmers) responsibility but yours.

the other reason is that it is sometimes more difficult with a barefoot horse and sometimes very much more difficult. To be successful with a barefoot horse the diet has to be perfect for that horse and very probably the mineral balance as well. Many horses don't demand much in the way of perfection but some demand an awful lot hence the number of posts on here about footy horses and the large number of comments about diet and minerals.

Good luck if you decide to stay without shoes. If you enjoyed the rockfoot site can I suggest the articles (all of them) on this site next?
www.hoofrehab.com
 
grhands said:
I just wanted to post this to maybe give a little hope to anyone who goes through a similar situation as I have over the last week.

The vet came to me on Thursday after I expressed some concern over the way my boy was standing...

...Anyhow, the vet came out and eyeballed him and my photographs and warned me that to him this looked like the onset of navicular disease. Needless to say I was devastated. We were booked in to the clinic the next day for investigation.

We went in to the clinic on Friday. It was a bit of an emotional roller-coaster! He trotted up v-slightly lame on his near fore. Almost unnoticeable, he just nodded slightly when he was trotting on the lunge. I think the vet said it was about 1/10 on the lameness scale.

Anyhow this lameness went after a Palmer digital nerve block so I immediately thought the worst. So he proceeded to go in for X-rays and to my huge relief they came up pretty much clear, other than very slight darkening to both outside edges of the navicular bone. So, the vet thinks the foot pain is down to very poor shoeing. I've only had him two months and vet thinks this is a progressive thing. His feet were not trimmed enough width ways and his foot was wider than it was long on the near fore which was leading to his heel dropping. Vet has popped him on navilox and suggested egg bar shoes although he's still barefoot on his front feet at the mo as he seems so comfortable.

I've lunged him in the school today and yesterday and he seems much happier. Vet did say to be vigilant though for any further signs as this just could be the v-v-early signs of navicular disease however I'm a nurse and can read x-rays pretty well and saw nothing that would worry me re-darkness on the bone. The navicular bone was very clearly defined at the edges, just that bit of 'fluff' at the sides. Fingers crossed things will be OK from here on in.

Just trying to decide if/when to get him re-shod. That was a horrid couple of days. So, the show isn't over til the fat lady sings so to speak. Beware of a quick navicular diagnosis as I went through 24hrs of hell unnecessarily.
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Your horse is a freaking genius
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He told you something was wrong before anything major 'blew' and cost you thousands.

You have taken the shoes off and now he's telling you he's feeling better.

How clever is he!
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So....I think as your horse is so smart....you should listen to him instead of anyone else;)

There are many, many posts on here about navicular and how to keep a BF horse happy.

1) Diet
2) Stimulation (within his comfort and with boots if needed in the beginning)
3) A sympathetic and appropriate trim (don't hack at the sole and frog).
4) Keep your eye out for infection in the sulcus and treat it urgently.

Horses are shod because "horses NEED shoes". It is a firm belief and has been since they first put shoes on the rotting, thrush filled hooves of stall kept horses in castles, to keep them sound enough for battle.

As they were on the rich people's horses....the poor people wanted them on their horses. And so on, and so on.

It is now the norm.

There are many horses who benefit from shoes in certain circumstances.

And there are horses who die because of them. It may sound over dramatic but it is frustratingly true:(

Many owners will go along with the traditional treatments - however hit and miss they may be.
But your clever horse is lucky to have an owner who is prepared to question and listen to him.
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(it's the nurse in us - we are 'bred' to question what doctors tell us on behalf of our patients...that instinct carries through on everything;))

The main thing I will tell you is that with the right information and knowledge on your side and the right support - you are NOT helpless to watch your horse develop navicular.

In 'nursey' language - centuries ago you could die from a chest infection while the doctors stood by helpless and watched you develop sepsis.
Nowadays the doctors (and nurses;)) can treat the primary infection with IVAB and feel confident.

It's no different with navicular. Just ten years ago I would have been terrified of a navicular diagnosis and I'd think it was the end....nowadays (to me) it is nothing but a hiccup:)
 
Oberon said:
It's no different with navicular. Just ten years ago I would have been terrified of a navicular diagnosis and I'd think it was the end....nowadays (to me) it is nothing but a hiccup:)
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Exactly, I lost my first horse to this 11 years ago, now I'd buy one with it knowing I could sort it out.

Your horse is your guide through this, they never lie. And thanks to all the other posters giving you honest experiences how their horses have come right without shoes in this situation, I know its hard going against tradition, but there is a ground swell of people taking this decision now, you're not alone.
 
Andalucian said:
Exactly, I lost my first horse to this 11 years ago, now I'd buy one with it knowing I could sort it out.

Your horse is your guide through this, they never lie. And thanks to all the other posters giving you honest experiences how their horses have come right without shoes in this situation, I know its hard going against tradition, but there is a ground swell of people taking this decision now, you're not alone.
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I wish mine was an inspiring BF story....

But in 2004, when I got The Tank as a colt, the farrier informed me that shoeing him would cost double. So I said hellllooo barefoot
whaat.gif
 
Having been both sides of the fence, Farrier/Trimmer I think I can see why we keep having this dilemma.
Going barefoot is not about taking the shoes off and letting nature 'do her thing', as I am sure you are aware.
It is about Nutrition, condition, and trimming, and this does not, and can not suit all owners.
It is not the easy way out, for the owner far from it, in fact it takes more time, and knowledge of your animal to be successful at barefoot, add to that the fact that each horse has to be treated differently and hey presto there is your problem.
Get up, go to your horse, muck out, feed with convenient all-in-one food, rug up, turn out, go to work.
Sound familiar, it was what most of my clients did.
Now that I only have regular barefoot clients I have found a whole new type of owner.
So in short:
All horses want to be barefoot, but not all owners do!
 
grhands have you found the rockley farm blog spot, (sorry, I know I keep following you around posting links to it :D )

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/p/hoof-information.html

I would get your grass and forage tested by www.forageplus.com they can also do you a feed plan so you can get your mineral balance exactly right, see here:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=498827&highlight=mineral+balancing

All this barefoot stuff makes so much sense, doesn't it?! Yet we are the ones that get called nutters, but such is the pattern of things (see link below)

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/progress-and-healthy-hoof.html
 
I have had my horse barefoot, and I am sure he would be lame by now if I hadn't, but I am one of those who finds it difficult and at the moment he has shoes on, and I am dithering about having them off on Thursday when the farrier comes.

My horse was a lot happier barefoot than I was, frankly. I kept anticpating problems - how would he cope on a stoney car park for a dressage competition, will he slip in his boots if I take him into woods where there is a mixture of terrain from mud to rocks, would he slip over when galloping in the Main Arena at the County show? It is, frankly, so much easier to have a farrier come every weeks and change his shoes! But I know he would be better without them.

In the past I have posted about not wanting a cure for Navicular, but how to prevent it occuring in the first place, and really I think that is where the research should go.
 
Thats great news about your boy, you must be so happy :)

FWIW I do a lot of hacking with my horse, on roads, I honestly don't think it would be fair to him to take his shoes off. He is a bit of a pansy tbh, and can get footy on gravelly tracks. He has great feet, hard, great shape, and shod really well (vet even commented on this). Great if barefoot works, but it would not, and does not suit every horse for some of the modern expectations of them. :)
 
It's such a difficult one to call sometimes. Like today when watching Eric hobbling over the gravel to the arena you do wonder. However he is going so beautifully at the moment and I am convinced that it is the best preventative measure for navicular disease.
 
Orangehorse said:
In the past I have posted about not wanting a cure for Navicular, but how to prevent it occuring in the first place, and really I think that is where the research should go.
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That's easy to answer, don't shoe horses (ok if unshod, perfect balance is also needed). Navicular is a man made disease, plain and simple.

If you choose to shoe, then make sure you build in a period of unshod time in each year to allow the foot to return to its natural shape.....like previous generations used to do.
 
Stencilface said:
I'm sure it is a great solution for many horses, but the barefoot mafia are a bit scary! :eek:
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Imagine you had discovered something.....
Something that could cure many many lame horses...
Something that you have seen working with your own eyes....
Something so simple and as plain as the nose on your face to see...
But you heard of many heartbroken owners putting their horses to sleep anyway....
Wouldn't you want to shout from the rooftops about it too?
 
Foxy1, I am not wholly disagreeing, I can see it has its place, don't get me wrong, and obviously for navicular cases it can and does work wonders for horses that previously probably would have been retired and/or pts.

But, my horse has great feet, but he's a bit of a pansy when it comes to stoney ground. I don't have a school, I only pretty much ever do hacking, his shoes (hind ones with lateral flare now), and the hacking work in straight lines, are hopefully going to help him recover from PSD. Plus, in the days when I could jump (hopefully will do again one day) I will likely want to use studs for competing on grass and the mega quick turns we do :)

Oberon - Barefoot guerillas?!
 
Orangehorse said:
I have had my horse barefoot, and I am sure he would be lame by now if I hadn't, but I am one of those who finds it difficult and at the moment he has shoes on, and I am dithering about having them off on Thursday when the farrier comes.

My horse was a lot happier barefoot than I was, frankly. I kept anticpating problems - how would he cope on a stoney car park for a dressage competition, will he slip in his boots if I take him into woods where there is a mixture of terrain from mud to rocks, would he slip over when galloping in the Main Arena at the County show? It is, frankly, so much easier to have a farrier come every weeks and change his shoes! But I know he would be better without them.

In the past I have posted about not wanting a cure for Navicular, but how to prevent it occuring in the first place, and really I think that is where the research should go.
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This is sooo confusing:confused:
You say you know barefoot is best for your horse but you can't do it.
You DON'T want a cure for navicular???? So you want horses to carry on wearing shoes which causse navicular without it causing navicular - that's IMPOSSIBLE - the shoes cause navicular.
Sorry but I think you are one very mixed up owner!
THE cure for navicular IS bare hooves!
There are many barefoot horses competing in all disciplines without slipping.
YOU just need to get your head around the concept of owning a barefoot horse.

OOOoo sorry Stencilface - this might have sounded a bit harsh for you:):o
Honest, I am a nice person in real life, I just get so frustrated when people cannot see the evidence right in front of their eyes and horses are suffering because they can't "get" it.
 
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Stencilface said:
Thats great news about your boy, you must be so happy :)

FWIW I do a lot of hacking with my horse, on roads, I honestly don't think it would be fair to him to take his shoes off. He is a bit of a pansy tbh, and can get footy on gravelly tracks. He has great feet, hard, great shape, and shod really well (vet even commented on this). Great if barefoot works, but it would not, and does not suit every horse for some of the modern expectations of them. :)
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So I'll be gentle and nice. I have a pansy TB. He would loose shoes regularly and if it came off in the field, he'd be lame by the time he came in and had to stay on box rest until the farrier came to replace it. He was even footy over stones with his shoes on so I thought he would never cope with bare hooves. I even bought boots to put on over his shoes when he was particularly footy. But then when he was about 11 he was diagnosed with navicular and was shod by a remedial farrier and told this would only slow the deterioration. So when he got too lame to ride him, still shod with natural balance and heel support and rolled toes, he was retired - field ornament.
I wish I'd known then what I know now and saved all that extra time damaging his feet more and more and thinking he would never cope without shoes. If the barefoot movement had come to me even five years earlier, I would have had many more years of competing and hacking out - but with boots and pads on for the few hours he was ridden, and with bare feet for the remaining 20 hours of the day. When I got my head round bare feet, I realised it must have been like having tight uncomfortable shoes on 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days of the year. Now, it must be like wearing comfy slippers when he has finished his work and is relaxing in the field or stable.
It is up to every owner to decide whether they want to do what's best for their horse and put their own feelings about what's convenient to one side.
I agree some horses seem to cope with their hooves being nailed into a vice and never have a problem, but many more are not comfortable and many die because their owners cannot cope with bare hooves. Sorry if that's too scary.
I'd like to bet your pansy TB's feet aren't the same shape as my pansy TB's feet are now. Vet's cannot recognise what good feet look like and farriers carry on creating bad shaped feet. My old farrier used to compete in shoeing competitions and write articles in magazines about shoeing but still let my horse develop "badly collapsed heels and extensive bruising in the heel area" as quoted from the vets report when he was diagnosed with navicular.
 
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