pressure v release

Why the need to over think it. It is by far the kindest and easiest way to train a horse. If (of course) you can do it correctly you can train a horse to anything you need and it will be calm and relaxed about doing it.
 
No, animals naturally pull against a pressure or push against it, so they need to learn that doing the alternative, and the release that follows is the reward, which is a form of negative punishment (release of something unpleasant).

When training animals, you would always aim to use positive reinforcement (the adding of something nice) with negative punishment as they are the most positive forms of training.
 
charcoalfeathers said:
No, animals naturally pull against a pressure or push against it, so they need to learn that doing the alternative, and the release that follows is the reward, which is a form of negative punishment (release of something unpleasant).

When training animals, you would always aim to use positive reinforcement (the adding of something nice) with negative punishment as they are the most positive forms of training.
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Horses do oppose pressure; it's a natural defence mechanism. They must be taught, by use of pressure and its release, to yield to pressure.

It's debatable whether the release is a reward, but a horse which has been taught to yield to pressure is certainly very keen to seek to be pressure-free. This makes such a horse compliant and trainable.

The release is not a 'form of negative punishment'. The removal of an adverse stimulus is negative reinforcement.
 
Dry Rot, I have to point out that, as a man to whom knowledge seems so important, you seek not the knowledge with which to embrace the debate on this subject
 
AengusOg said:
Horses do oppose pressure; it's a natural defence mechanism. They must be taught, by use of pressure and its release, to yield to pressure.

It's debatable whether the release is a reward, but a horse which has been taught to yield to pressure is certainly very keen to seek to be pressure-free. This makes such a horse compliant and trainable.

The release is not a 'form of negative punishment'. The removal of an adverse stimulus is negative reinforcement.
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^^This^^:D
 
I only hope all you who theorise enjoy your riding? Must be the limiting weather making everyone nit pick. It's how pressure is applied as well as to how animals respond. The same with eye contact. Not all contact is threatening nor demanding!
So much talk and so little application. Horses need a leader too, but not all leaders do so with strength.
 
Dry Rot said:
I posted a query on a similar thread which I don't think anyone answered.

A trainer is trying to teach a foal to lead. So he/she applies pressure on the head collar while simultaneously offering a slice of carrot.

Now, is that positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement when the foal moves forward? And what's it called if nothing happens?

Just to add a bit of spice to the question, at the split second the trainer applies pressure and offers a carrot, his/her assistant moves towards the foal's rear end. If the foal moves now, what is it called? And if it doesn't?

On the other hand, do the definitions really matter so long as the foal learns to lead??:) I suspect I'll get there a lot sooner without wasting my time talking about it!:D
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Isn't it that age old argument, there is no such thing as positive or negative reinforcement... you just can't have one without the other?
 
Theorising is the best thing to do in this weather! :D

In scientific terms, reward is only associated with positive reinforcement. in practical terms the two are probably a bit blurred.
 
Queenbee thats interesting and I am slightly on the fence about the answer.

You can definately have positive and negative punishment, though :p (or can you...?)
 
fburton said:
Quite! Why Dry Rot is so keen on making it an issue of either/or, I don't know!
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I don't understand. Can you define "issue" for me, please??:D

But, to be serious for a moment, the other threads did seem to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to explain +ve/-ve reinforcement (not to mention "over shadowing" and stuff), people were getting confused, and nothing was getting trained!:rolleyes: I've been successfully training various species for 60 years (yes, really) and on these definitions, I'm still confused!:eek:

But maybe I'm "shutting down"??:confused:
 
AengusOg said:
Dry Rot, I have to point out that, as a man to whom knowledge seems so important, you seek not the knowledge with which to embrace the debate on this subject
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No, I am just picky who I embrace!:rolleyes:

And I am also very suspicious of reasoning that argues that pressure should be released when a horse pulls back (unless the object is to teach it to go backwards!!!).

If it pulls back in panic, rears, and tries to bolt, the pressure is obviously too severe for it to cope with and it is resorting to random and violent escape behaviour and learning nothing. I think you described such a scenario in another thread? Is that the knowledge you are referring to?

Of course, some just don't get it, and resort to hurling insults rather than reasoning.
 
Natch said:
Queenbee thats interesting and I am slightly on the fence about the answer.

You can definately have positive and negative punishment, though :p (or can you...?)
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Hmmm, positive punishment... bit of an oxymoron that. Define positive punishment :D

I personally think that one can not exist without the other... a bit like the concept of good and bad... there must be bad in the world for us to be able to develop a concept of 'what is good'
 
Queenbee said:
Hmmm, positive punishment... bit of an oxymoron that. Define positive punishment :D

I personally think that one can not exist without the other... a bit like the concept of good and bad... there must be bad in the world for us to be able to develop a concept of 'what is good'
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None of these terms means what it sounds like, negative doesn't mean bad and positive doesn't mean good.

Fun this.
 
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Dry Rot said:
No, I am just picky who I embrace!:rolleyes:
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So are a lot of people here. We'll see how long you remain credible on this forum.

I was merely pointing out that, despite your quotes relating to the wisdom of knowledge, you seem to be loathe to learn, entertain, or even acknowledge the generally accepted terminology relating to equine behaviour.

Anyway, thanks to you I have taken the trouble to discover, for the first time, the user ignore facility. :)
 
Pale Rider said:
None of these terms means what it sounds like, negative doesn't mean bad and positive doesn't mean good.

Fun this.
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PR, I was using the concept of good and bad as an example... I was not saying positive is good and negative is bad, just that in any form of training there are two opposing facets that are needed for that concept to work. For example heaven and hell :p
 
Queenbee said:
PR, I was using the concept of good and bad as an example... I was not saying positive is good and negative is bad, just that in any form of training there are two opposing facets that are needed for that concept to work. For example heaven and hell :p
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More than fun. This is getting seriously interesting.
 
Queenbee said:
Hmmm, positive punishment... bit of an oxymoron that. Define positive punishment :D

I personally think that one can not exist without the other... a bit like the concept of good and bad... there must be bad in the world for us to be able to develop a concept of 'what is good'
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Pale Rider said:
None of these terms means what it sounds like, negative doesn't mean bad and positive doesn't mean good.

Fun this.
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Definately fun if you're geeky like me :cool:

Positive when we are talking about training is the addition of something, negative is the removal of something.

Examples:

Positive Reinforcement: The addition of a food reward

Negative Reinforcement: The removal of pressure from the rider's leg, when the horse moves forwards.

Positive Punishment would be the addition of a punishment to the scenario, so e.g. the application of the whip when a horse exhibits an undesireable behaviour (such as napping).

Negative Punishment: Removal of something as punishment. It's not considered at all effective and is often a welfare issue, when dealing with horses. An example is if your horse performs badly during a showjumping round, you put it away in its stable without food or water overnight to "teach it a lesson".

:)
 
Natch said:
Definately fun if you're geeky like me :cool:

Positive when we are talking about training is the addition of something, negative is the removal of something.

Examples:

Positive Reinforcement: The addition of a food reward

Negative Reinforcement: The removal of pressure from the rider's leg, when the horse moves forwards.

Positive Punishment would be the addition of a punishment to the scenario, so e.g. the application of the whip when a horse exhibits an undesireable behaviour (such as napping).

Negative Punishment: Removal of something as punishment. It's not considered at all effective and is often a welfare issue, when dealing with horses. An example is if your horse performs badly during a showjumping round, you put it away in its stable without food or water overnight to "teach it a lesson".

:)
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Thanks Natch, nice post. Queenbee, I'm with you on that.:)
 
But is pressure and release limited to when we are consciously training? Isn't a hungry horse "under pressure" which is "released" when it finds fresh grass? Or a timid horse under pressure when the trainer is close which is relieved when it moves away (and the relief it feels will be in proportion to the distance)?

I have a foal that was reared by an overly protective mum. She is normally quite a friendly mare but she became very foal proud. If I approached the pair in the field, she'd move away. The foal seldom left her side and would always hide behind her. He was also a little beggar for chewing manes and tails, which I assume is not unrelated (stress?). Matters were made worse, when we tried to put Cribox on the mare's mane. That convinced her we were up to no good!

Now he is weaned, the foal is a lot better. He comes up for a slice of carrot or his hard feed but is still behind others of a similar age. What concerns me is that spookiness is self rewarding. His nervousness (pressure) must diminish (release) in direct proportion to distance. He will come right in time, but I have been wondering if there are any short cuts? Grooming would help, but I don't think he is going to tolerate that for a while!

I think this is a valid training problem because I am attempting to modify behaviour. I am trying all the usual ploys -- piped Radio 1 in the stable, smelly old coats left for him to investigate, etc. Any suggestions?
 
The original question was...'Do you agree that horses will mostly always learn from the release of pressure not the pressure itself?'

Yes I agree that to be the case.

Pressure is an adverse stimulus; horses will always oppose pressure unless they have been taught to yield to it. It is the handler's responsibility to manage the pressure so that the horse feels inclined to offer a response, not a reaction to it. By managing the pressure to that end, keeping the horse free from pain or fear, the handler allows the horse to seek freedom from the pressure.

I suppose the pressure is the catalyst which triggers a response, and the release, given that it is timely and total, is what gives the horse confidence to act at that point in time and in the future.
 
AengusOg said:
The original question was...'Do you agree that horses will mostly always learn from the release of pressure not the pressure itself?'

Yes I agree that to be the case.

Pressure is an adverse stimulus; horses will always oppose pressure unless they have been taught to yield to it. It is the handler's responsibility to manage the pressure so that the horse feels inclined to offer a response, not a reaction to it. By managing the pressure to that end, keeping the horse free from pain or fear, the handler allows the horse to seek freedom from the pressure.

I suppose the pressure is the catalyst which triggers a response, and the release, given that it is timely and total, is what gives the horse confidence to act at that point in time and in the future.
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^^Agreed^^

We are back to the pressure being the motivating factor and the release teaching.

As you say if the handler/rider manages the pressure appropreatly the amount becomes infinitesimal for an instant responce.
 
So, nothing new then?

Post 53 and we seem to be back where we started!:D

I'm afraid I do push the boundaries and try to extend the logic to new areas which is what AO cannot cope with. Training is not a religion and it is not heresy to suggest things might be done differently and may happen outside the box. Why do some find that suggestion threatening?

I can't find the original thread that upset him so much, but he was clearly out voted and told not to be so silly.

Pressure on the head collar is clearly pressure. Then I think it was agreed that eye contact can also be pressure. Can we take the discussion any further or is it at an end? I thought it was getting quite interesting.
 
Dry Rot said:
Now he is weaned, the foal is a lot better. He comes up for a slice of carrot or his hard feed but is still behind others of a similar age. What concerns me is that spookiness is self rewarding. His nervousness (pressure) must diminish (release) in direct proportion to distance. He will come right in time, but I have been wondering if there are any short cuts? Grooming would help, but I don't think he is going to tolerate that for a while!

I think this is a valid training problem because I am attempting to modify behaviour. I am trying all the usual ploys -- piped Radio 1 in the stable, smelly old coats left for him to investigate, etc. Any suggestions?
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Shortcuts in training horses? I don't think you meant that! :p

You could either to make the reward for staying with you greater than the discomfort, e.g. feed high value treats, hanging around with foal's best mate or access to a pleasurable environment. Of course officially horses aren't food motivated, but you try telling that to some of the natives out there and they'll have that sugar cube and your fingers before you've finished your first sentence! ;)

Or you could take away the reward/relief for running away, perhaps by going into a bit of join up (no longer my choice, but it's an option).

I suspect you already know this though ;) :)
 
Natch said:
Shortcuts in training horses? I don't think you meant that! :
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Well, I did actually!:eek: I don't believe in hard work if being lazy achieves the same or better results.:)

After Aegnogs little outburst, I suppose some explanation is called for. I am well known and respected in dog training circles but prefer to remain anonymous here. I have been deeply steeped in training and working dogs since hunting a pack of hounds at 18. (I'm now 73). After training dogs the conventional way for over 25 years, I started to look at things from a different angle, basically to use natural instincts rather than inhibit them.

My ideas worked. I put it on video and twenty years later, they are still asking for the tapes. So I'm an odd ball and a fair target for people like Aegnog who does things by the book and considers himself an expert. Training/animal behaviour is, with me, an obsession. There is always a better way!

could either to make the reward for staying with you greater than the discomfort, e.g. feed high value treats, hanging around with foal's best mate or access to a pleasurable environment. Of course officially horses aren't food motivated, but you try telling that to some of the natives out there and they'll have that sugar cube and your fingers before you've finished your first sentence!
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That's pretty much what I've been attempting for about ten minutes a day and the improvement is dramatic. The little beggar is actually beginning to like me! (Glad someone does!:rolleyes:). As he turns to head off at his latest spook, I offer a slice of carrot. Actually, he gets rather a lot of slices of carrot. I've been trying to do exactly as you say and it does seem to be working. So, a bit late I know, but thank you for the telepathic advice!:)

you could take away the reward/relief for running away, perhaps by going into a bit of join up (no longer my choice, but it's an option)
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Yes, I considered that too. Not the join up as it doesn't work with me. Inhibiting the reward/relief of running away is something I do with a nervous dog. But it is a delicate business. As the subject takes flight I tighten up on the check cord, so the dog is not rewarded by it's own actions. This is very quickly followed by reassurance from me. So flight becomes a bad thing to do and hanging around me is not so bad after all. But I am very reluctant to try that with a foal for obvious reasons. Gentle restraint, perhaps, but I don't think it is going to be necessary in any case. I was actually leading him around a bit today, with a finger through his head collar. Previously, he'd be off!

suspect you already know this though ;) :)
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I don't know a lot about horses (compared to dogs and birds of prey) so it is an adventure for me. There's nothing new in training and there are always tips to be picked up but there are subtle variations. What works for one species, often works for another.

I hope more will contribute to this thread as the whole subject is fascinating.
 
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