Pretty or freaky? Debate on 'dishy' Arab foal...

[htobago]

I posted this photo of my stallion's latest foal on another board, and immediately got a lot of comments from people who dislike - and disapprove of - this sort of very dished 'seahorse' type of Arab head.

I can understand 'dislike' - that's fine, people have different tastes - but it is the 'disapproval' that perplexes me a bit. (Not offended, just puzzled!)

Surely (providing the exotic/extreme head is attached to a sound, athletic horse with good conformation), this is a purely subjective matter - a question of aesthetic preferences - not a moral issue or a matter of 'right' and 'wrong'?

What do you think?

Do you like these 'exotic'/'extreme' heads, or do you find them freaky and unattractive?

And do you think this is a purely aesthetic/subjective matter, or an issue that can be debated in terms of 'right' and 'wrong'?

 

[Vizslak]

I think thats an extremely cute foal! I have never heard of people being un approving of an arabs head! It's never occured to me as being anything other than aesthetic preference, if that as arabs aren't 'my thing' but I can still appreciate a good looking example of the breed. Are you saying these people are viewing it as an inbred fault? such as seen in the dog world? That these horses are not 'fit for purpose'? Surely when these animals are clearly excelling at endurance riding etc. any numpty can see this is not the case?

 

[scotsmare]

You're back!!!! Hope you're feeling better now.

Foalie is very pretty but it's a personal taste issue I think - not sure why there was such an outcry but as you've said so long as horse is healthy and sound then there shouldn't be an issue. Was the mare v. dish faced?

 

[horsey1992devon]

I read an article once in which someone was suggesting that the extremely dished head can cause breathing problems as the airways are smaller because the head dips in so much.
I don't know wether or not it's true, but those people who dissaprove may be thinking along those lines?

Gorgeous foal btw

 

[E_Lister]

Maybe they just dont like arabs? Personally I think it looks lovely

but I have a bit of a soft spot for them!

 

[Donkeymad]

I think the disapproval comes from the idea that a face as dished as this means that very often there is misplacement/alignment of the teeth. I suppose this does happen, but no idea if it is common.

Personally, I love it (providing the teeth/jaws are fine)

 

[AmyMay]

Looks terribly sweet.

From the pic it does look very dished - a bit too much for me. But I admit that I know nothing about Arab breeding - and don't really know what the breed standard is or whether there are any breathing implications.

 

[christine48]

[ QUOTE ]
I read an article once in which someone was suggesting that the extremely dished head can cause breathing problems as the airways are smaller because the head dips in so much.
I don't know wether or not it's true, but those people who dissaprove may be thinking along those lines?

Gorgeous foal btw

[/ QUOTE ]
I was just wondering about the airways myself. They are beautiful but we don't want to go down the same lines as in dog breeding where bulldogs etc can hardly breathe.

 

[tasel]

You serious??? Foal looks like a perfectly good Arab foal to me.

I like their heads... look so dainty!

Which forum was that on???


P.S.: This comes from a girl though who loves the look of Arabs and very nearly bought an Arab rather than the Warmblood she now has (and needed for what she wanted to do!!!).

 

[SnowPhony]

Gorgeous foalie!!!

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

What a cute foal!!

Our little Section A has a very dished face and looks like a seahorse - it suits her and is part of her character.

As you say everyone is entitled to their opinion but should sometimes think before airing them.

 

[MrsMozart]

I like the look

But as to breeding issues, we used to breed Shi Tzus: we bred for temperament, but so many breed for the shortened muzzle.

There are extremes and characteristics in all breeds; it's the damned human interference that causes the issues.

 

[RunToEarth]

She is obviously a very pretty foal. I personaly don't like dished faces or arabs, so don't appriciate the dished face for what it is, but people like yourself who obviously love arabs will find it a real asset.
x

 

[SilverSkye]

To add to the debate it looks like the foal is practising rolkur, as for the dished face each to their own i am not really a fan fot no other reason than it just doesnt appeal to me, in that particular pic the foal however is very cute!

 

[Cliqmo]

What a cutie! I assume the people you refer to were agitated that the foal might have been bred with the intention of getting a very dished face? Some horse breeders actively encourage particular physical traits in horses in order to make them as close as possible to the ideal 'type'. It isn't something I particularly agree with, TBH, as it could lead to similar problems as are now being seen in certain types of dog (eg dog can't function because of physiolgical quirks) However so long as your primary intention (and effect) is to breed healthy, happy horses I can't see the harm

 

[hussar]

I love Arabs but have to admit to not particularly liking the very dished faces - they look overbred, a bit like pugs. Your Tobago has a lovely classic head, but the foal's head doesn't do it for me. That's just personal preference and I can't think why people might 'disapprove'.

Come to think of it, I did read somewhere that the very dished faces were thought to contribute to bitting problems as the hard palate was quite low - but maybe that's nonsense.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
You're back!!!! Hope you're feeling better now.

Foalie is very pretty but it's a personal taste issue I think - not sure why there was such an outcry but as you've said so long as horse is healthy and sound then there shouldn't be an issue. Was the mare v. dish faced?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks - I'm much better now.

I'm not upset or offended or anything by the comments on the other board - just thought they raised an interesting issue and was curious to see if a different board would have different views...

No, the mare is not particularly dishy. She's a very pretty, typey mare (I love her - wish she were mine!) but not 'extreme'.

Here's the mare's head:

And here's my stallion's:

Side view of stally to show dish:

 

[somethingorother]

Arabs are my favourite breed, and obviously part of that is a dished face. Although sometimes they are a bit too dished for my tastes. However, obviously if there are no health problems and good breeding is exercised then it is just that- personal taste.

I have recently started to look into the history of Arabs, and have found an excellent book which traces the lines right back to the very first documented strains. From what i can see so far, the dished face has become exaggerated over the years, and certainly the early Crabbets don't seem to be as dished as a lot of what are seen today (the early photos really surprised me). Am more than willing to be further informed and to stand corrected, as i say i'm trying to hoover up as much knowledge as i can and so far my sources have been limited, although fascinating.

I absolutely love Tobago, but wouldn't want any more dished personally. But some people do, and that's fine by me.

 

[somethingorother]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're back!!!! Hope you're feeling better now.

Foalie is very pretty but it's a personal taste issue I think - not sure why there was such an outcry but as you've said so long as horse is healthy and sound then there shouldn't be an issue. Was the mare v. dish faced?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks - I'm much better now.

I'm not upset or offended or anything by the comments on the other board - just thought they raised an interesting issue and was curious to see if a different board would have different views...

No, the mare is not particularly dishy. She's a very pretty, typey mare (I love her - wish she were mine!) but not 'extreme'.

Here's the mare's head:

And here's my stallion's:

Side view of stally to show dish:

[/ QUOTE ]

Ohhh lovely mare! I think the dish often looks more extreme in foals because of their proportions anyway, i think he (?) will probably grow into it more as he ages.

 

[haras]

Foaly is stunning, but I'm very biased!

Is daddy tobago? I knew someone who has a tobago colt and he is just to die for. May have to send my mare your way one day!

 

[Vizslak]

I'm now finding this thread very educational. I didnt know people bred to produce more of a dish, but can see the health implications that would come from a very over exaggerated dish. This is all very interesting, I like arabs, as stated previously they are'nt my thing but still interested to hear more of peoples thoughts and knowledge on this.

 

[somethingorother]

I wouldn't take it as fact from me lol, just what i've been finding out about and the way it seems to me. The book is by Hossein Amirsadeghi and although not an easy read, it's great. I'm going to try and follow up some of the things in it after i've read it all.

 

[dieseldog]

When you look at a picture of HTobago's face, it's not the airways that have been affected by the dish, rather a lack of bone surrounding the nostrils. he is very pretty

How anyone can make any sort of judgement on the foal pic, as it is a very poor pic and you can hardly see the face, is beyond me. As someone else has also said foals face change a lot while they mature.

 

[the watcher]

I agree - this foal does have a pronounced dished head, but for heaven's sake it is relatively new born and will change very quickly - looks like a beautiful little seahorse now.

My personal view is that I love a dished face and those wide eyes on an Arab and as long as nobody is breeding solely to achieve that, at the expense of other attributes then I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Skhosu]

The main problem is that the scenario can arise where, such as in breeds of dogs, the dish is bred for regardless of the implications for breathing, realistically by decreasing the area there(which the dish is effectively doing) you are reducing the breathing area so issues could arise.
That I believe is why the extreme dish is disapproved of.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I read an article once in which someone was suggesting that the extremely dished head can cause breathing problems as the airways are smaller because the head dips in so much.
I don't know wether or not it's true, but those people who dissaprove may be thinking along those lines?

Gorgeous foal btw

[/ QUOTE ]
I was just wondering about the airways myself. They are beautiful but we don't want to go down the same lines as in dog breeding where bulldogs etc can hardly breathe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been told that the story about breathing difficulties in dishy-faced Arabs is a myth - and I have certainly never seen any actual scientific evidence for this. But I could be wrong, and if anyone has any references/links to vet journal articles on the subject I'd be very interested!

 

[lauraandjack]

I would be a little concerned that this is the start of a slippery slope into extreme conformation. Not for this foal in particular, but if this were to be a trend for a majority of the breed there is potential to run into problems with airways etc.

Let all breeders of any animal learn from the pedigree dog scenario.

But breeding extremes of type is widespread, Belgian blue and Holstein cattle, Texel sheep, many breeds of dogs. There does come a point where is becomes an ethical issue, as man has basically created these animals.

 

[rara007]

All the top endurance horses are arabs, with fairly Dished faces, and they don't struggle to breathe...

I don't presonally like very dished faced arabs, but if there are no heath implications I don't see the problem. With such a a young foal its hard to judge what it will turn out like even

This is too far IMHO...
http://www.ariela-arabians.co.il/imgs/progeny-phot/large/sharav-Tammam-Albadeia.jpg

Is there a 'maxium' dish for an arab, or not really, as if there isn't you can see how it will develop into being a similar situation to the dogs with stumpy noses, but its not a problem I'm aware of.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree - this foal does have a pronounced dished head, but for heaven's sake it is relatively new born and will change very quickly - looks like a beautiful little seahorse now.

My personal view is that I love a dished face and those wide eyes on an Arab and as long as nobody is breeding solely to achieve that, at the expense of other attributes then I don't have a problem with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - I meant to say right at the beginning that even ultra-dishy Arab foal faces become much less 'extreme' as they mature - the foal's head will probably end up looking very much like his Daddy's, I think.

I agree with your second point too - breeding for ANY single characteristic (dishy face, colour, whatever) at the expense of good althletic conformation is a huge mistake.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
What a cutie! I assume the people you refer to were agitated that the foal might have been bred with the intention of getting a very dished face? Some horse breeders actively encourage particular physical traits in horses in order to make them as close as possible to the ideal 'type'. It isn't something I particularly agree with, TBH, as it could lead to similar problems as are now being seen in certain types of dog (eg dog can't function because of physiolgical quirks) However so long as your primary intention (and effect) is to breed healthy, happy horses I can't see the harm

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks - nicely put!

My intention - and that of the breeder of this foal - is certainly to breed healthy, happy, althletic horses. We also clearly wanted to breed a very beautiful, typey Arab - a potential in-hand champion that would go on to be equally good under saddle.

My 'ideal type' is an Arab that is both exotic AND athletic! I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.