Pretty or freaky? Debate on 'dishy' Arab foal...

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
Foaly is stunning, but I'm very biased!

Is daddy tobago? I knew someone who has a tobago colt and he is just to die for. May have to send my mare your way one day!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you! I love him too, but I'm even more biased!

Yes, the daddy is Tobago. Which colt is it that you know? Do you breed Arabs too?

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I've only come across the other "extreme", when I read FuglyHorseOfTheDay's blog, I don't agree about her always classifying the sort of head a lot of horses of heavier breed has, as Fugly.

I think the foal is cute but I admit that if adult arabians begins to have a lot more dishy face than your stallion, I would begin to think they looked freaky. But on other hand, if the change happened gradually , I might also get used to it.

 

[imafluffybunny]

Tobago is an exceptional stallion, the foal I have no doubt will be beautiful (its very hard to see from the photo) usually when you see freaky animals its through years of weird or in breeding. There is no reason to think this foal will be a freak especially as the mother from the photo looks very nice as well.
I think anyone who thinks this foal looks freaky is not a fan of arabs, if i had a mare suitable to send to an arab, tobago would be my first choice!

 

[EstherYoung]

Firstly, I saw the comment on the 'other forum' and no-one said the foal looked freaky, just that they weren't mad keen on the trend for overly dished arabs but didn't want to go into it on that thread as they didn't want to take away from your pretty foal.

Secondly, it's a foal. Most foals, even the non arab ones, look a bit seahorsey. They're foals. And it looks particularly seahorsey as it's got its nose in its chest. Neither mummy or daddy are overly dished so I can't see that baby would be either when it grows up.

Thirdly, it is a pretty foal, but it would look a lot prettier with its nose off its chest. We need more pics showing the whole foalie

Fourthly, I'm not mad keen myself on extreme dishes (of which I don't think this foal is one). I'm not aware of any scientific studies but it does seem to be that the most successful performance ayrabs are those with big hearts and clear airways. I'm also not keen on the practice of shaving the foal's muzzle and lower head to accentuate the dish. Nor am I keen on the arab show classes where they just judge the head.

Incidentally the two horses in my sig: The 23yo bay is half sister to a British National in hand champion from 20 odd years ago, and the 12yo grey was a British National in hand champion in his own right 9 years ago. You can see that they are completely different stamps of horse - horses like the bay would get no-where in the in hand arena these days, and things have even moved on since the grey's day too. Fashions change in a few short years, but horses can live for 30 years. The arab world has got to be very careful that it's not breeding extreme heads that don't actually have a use outside the in hand arena. The important things are the arab's famed athleticism, its legs and feet of iron, and its versatile and willing temperament. Calm enough to live in your tent, firey enough to take you to war. Lose those qualities at your peril.

 

[M_G]

Drool your stallion is gorgeous.. foalie looks lovely in the pic

 

[wildpoppywild]

very gorgeous foalie

i would think it shall grow into the dish a wee bit, but the dished face is what us arab lovers love, and the big adoring eyes

 

[Tinypony]

On the other thread someone said that heads like this look a bit deformed. It has also been mentioned that it is very well known that the teeth get crammed and cause pain. I've been around Arabs a very long time and haven't come across this, I own a close relative of Tobago who also has quite a refined head, and he doesn't have problems with his teeth. I'm happy for someone to point me to the horses in question though.
Of course, there are different types of Arabs, and not all had dished heads, Tobago happens to be one who does. My other Arab (Egyptian/Crabbet) has hardly any dish, and I owned a Spanish Arab who's face was straight.
I think some people don't realise that Arab foals don't keep looking like this for the rest of their lives, as they grow up the head looks less extreme.
I also can't find any evidence for lots of Arab horses being bred just for the shape of their head, and this causing breathing difficulties. There is one mare in the States that was born with a head so squashed it is a deformity, and her owners think she is exquisite and wonderful. That is very controversial, but the fact is that she doesn't breed that extreme head shape in her foals, so in my opinion that makes her simply deformed, whether or not some people think it looks pretty. In the UK the trend is very much against breeding just for type, and breeders like Kate are quite particular about which mare is bred to their stallion.
It's strange really, something about Arabs. I can't think of any other breed where a proud owner or breeder puts up some happy foal photos and people go straight into discussions about deformities, or even says that the shape of the foal is not to their taste. I mean normally you just look and think "Not my type" and don't say anything - don't you? I can understand wanting to open a discussion, but doing it on a happy foal thread seems a little bit impolite. As would starting another thread right alongside it. I'd wait for the dust to settle and then start the discussion a couple of weeks later.

 

[Lobelia_Overhill]

Wow the stallion's a "proper" Arab! I rode an Arab many years ago, I'd buy one myself, but they don't tend to grow to 16+hh!

a dished face is part of an Arab's conformation, I believe it's something to do with allowing the nostrils to flare as much as possible when in a hot, dry, desert environment (I may be misunderstanding what was said to me) So I dunno why people would disapprove of a dished face on an Arab - if he was a Clydesdale foal I'd see their point!

(foal's adorable!!)

 

[Archangel]

Arabs are so much more than just pretty heads. That foal is gorgeous and doesn't immediately strike me as overly seahorsey, its just the angle.

I presume the person making the comment knows about arabs so would know that as a breeder you don't have a head fixation (I still remember your General Lee Gold

) so agree it is a bit puzzling.

Going to the National Show last year it occured to me that the heads were more extreme than when I was showing and that there was much more lift to the knee in trot than I personally like (but maybe it is the way they are shown, it wasn't so visible under saddle).

Glad you are feeling better Kate

 

[gails]

Ah, cute foal.

Really I echo the above comments about what has happened in the dog world. I would hate to see horses go the same way, swaping purpose for looks.

However your stallion and mare look lovely.

 

[Tnavas]

Foal is so pretty.

People tend to forget that they owe a lot to the arab and its ability to improve the varius breeds.

We wouldn't have TB's without them or Anglos or Andalusians, Welsh New Forest - the list is endless as to where they have affed their genes to the pool.

There are some modern Arabians who's 'Dish and fine muzzle' have become extreme but in general I like arabs.

 

[Alibear]

I would say some quite rightly dissaprove when they have come across the extremly dished faces that actually cause the horses serious health issues throughout life.

It impossible to tell from that photo how this foal is and how it will turn out , with a good sire like tobago I'm reckonig it will be just fine.

 

[siennamum]

I agree about the mare and foal, although I feel more strongly.

I actually think that breeding such an extreme conformational attribute has to be bad for the breed.

Can't see how it is any different to what's been done to Quarter horses. Breeding horses to stand around in halters who aren't fit to do a days work can't be good and I think - although I am no arab expert - that arabs looks to be going the same way.

I know that there will be fervent defence of the head and I will possibly be slated for not being an arab expert but tbh, fanaticism like that also worries me. It's a bit like the reaction you get when you dare to criticise the conformation of tennessee walking horses.

We SHOULD be fanatical about breeding fit, strong animals, not ornaments.

 

[SirenaXVI]

I must admit I dislike these exotic heads, this foals does not look that bad but I have seen far far worse. My main concern is that the nasal passages are severely interfered with when the head becomes too 'exotic'.

This to me is a beautiful classic Arab head

But these are far too extreme and could cause problems with breathing

Sorry if this has already been said but have not read the whole post

 

[fornema]

THe foalie is absolutley stunning, hehe i think people might me jealous of such a stunning foal. I think the dish makes them look even mrore refined and beautiful

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

I thinks the foal is drop dead gorgeous, and I am still drooling over the father

 

[shadowboy]

I personally prefer the mares head to the Sire- however, I think that as long as they are not breed PURELY to gain this trait- I dont mind- you know- as long as other areas like confo and attitude are considered first and foremost.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other thread someone said that heads like this look a bit deformed. It has also been mentioned that it is very well known that the teeth get crammed and cause pain. I've been around Arabs a very long time and haven't come across this, I own a close relative of Tobago who also has quite a refined head, and he doesn't have problems with his teeth. I'm happy for someone to point me to the horses in question though.
Of course, there are different types of Arabs, and not all had dished heads, Tobago happens to be one who does. My other Arab (Egyptian/Crabbet) has hardly any dish, and I owned a Spanish Arab who's face was straight.
I think some people don't realise that Arab foals don't keep looking like this for the rest of their lives, as they grow up the head looks less extreme.
I also can't find any evidence for lots of Arab horses being bred just for the shape of their head, and this causing breathing difficulties. There is one mare in the States that was born with a head so squashed it is a deformity, and her owners think she is exquisite and wonderful. That is very controversial, but the fact is that she doesn't breed that extreme head shape in her foals, so in my opinion that makes her simply deformed, whether or not some people think it looks pretty. In the UK the trend is very much against breeding just for type, and breeders like Kate are quite particular about which mare is bred to their stallion.
It's strange really, something about Arabs. I can't think of any other breed where a proud owner or breeder puts up some happy foal photos and people go straight into discussions about deformities, or even says that the shape of the foal is not to their taste. I mean normally you just look and think "Not my type" and don't say anything - don't you? I can understand wanting to open a discussion, but doing it on a happy foal thread seems a little bit impolite. As would starting another thread right alongside it. I'd wait for the dust to settle and then start the discussion a couple of weeks later.

[/ QUOTE ]

So many interesting comments on this thread - thanks everyone!

I should say again that I was not at all offended by any of the comments on the other board - a little bit puzzled at people using terms like 'deformed' about the dishy foal, but I've heard this before, and I certainly didn't start this thread here to complain about the other board! I was genuinely just curious to know what people on here thought about the issue.

Having said that, I think you have a point Woeisme (love your name btw!). Arabs do seem to be 'Marmite' horses, that people either love or hate, and they do seem to spark a lot of heated debate!

I suppose if people genuinely believe that very dished heads cause health problems, then it does become a 'moral' issue rather than a purely aesthetic one. So far, however, no-one has been able to give me a reference or link to any scientific evidence supporting this argument (that doesn't mean there isn't any, but I'll reserve judgement till I've seen it!).

And I do agree that there is an ethical problem when people breed for any one characteristic at the expense of other more important attributes, such as soundness, good conformation, limbs, etc.

(Actually, I have a problem with the Arab-racing breeders who are breeding Arabs purely for speed, at the expense of Arabian type - they are basically re-creating the TB, which to me is a bit like re-inventing the wheel....but that's another issue.)

Woeisme you are so kind to be concerned, but truly I think that people on the other board and on here know me well enough to know that I don't get upset or take offence if some people don't like my boy or his foals. Life would be very dull if we all liked exactly the same horses!

I'd love to see photos of your Arabs if you have some you could post?!

 

[PapaFrita]

I'm not particularly keen on VERY dished Arab faces; you know, the ones where the muzzle appears very very narrow compared to the jaw (Tobago's is lovely) but I think that photo doesn't give a proper representation of what the foal's true dish is like (or will be like) because he/she is very young and also has his head slightly turned away from the camera, so the dish will appear accentuated.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
Tobago is an exceptional stallion, the foal I have no doubt will be beautiful (its very hard to see from the photo) usually when you see freaky animals its through years of weird or in breeding. There is no reason to think this foal will be a freak especially as the mother from the photo looks very nice as well.
I think anyone who thinks this foal looks freaky is not a fan of arabs, if i had a mare suitable to send to an arab, tobago would be my first choice!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - in the heat of the debate earlier I missed your nice comment! Just wanted to say thank you!

To be fair, there are genuine Arab-fans who also dislike the very dished faces - tastes are quite varied even within the Arab-breeding world, and this foal would not appeal to everyone. I've seen similar debates in other breeds as well - many QH breeders cannot stand the current extreme fashions in 'halter' QH breeding, for example...

 

[Tinypony]

I'm surprised that anyone on the other forum could take offence at this thread. It isn't having a go at them, I took it that you were just pondering the opinions and wondered if they were widespread.
It is also true however that happy foal threads get posted everywhere, but seldom do people come on that same thread and suggest that the baby looks deformed and speculate on physical issues it might have. They might think it of course, but normally people don't rain on the parade. I know you are pretty confident and don't let people hurt you easily, and I'm not saying anyone was deliberately setting out to be nasty, but it just seemed rather inappropriate.
Yep, Arabs are certainly the Marmite of the horse world!

 

[Tinypony]

Breeding extreme Arabians seems to be rather an "American" thing.

The little foal in the photo above is Enshallah Naji. It would be interesting to see a full body shot of him a bit older, because he's very well thought of. I found this:

"This rare Straight Egyptian colt has been the center of attention since his birth at Hopkinson Equine Management. He is by Thee Asil who was Egyptian Event Champion Three Year Old Colt and twice the AHA Region 9 Reserve Champion Stallion and out of our Botswana daughter, Enshallah Aji Ali. With his outstanding features including a large dark eye, a wonderful stretchy neck, a classic and exotic head that reminds you of his sire Thee Asil, he captures the heart of everyone he meets. We agree with Robin Hopkinson “this little guy is really special. He has such a beautiful conformation. Everything about this colt is "Balanced." His legs, length of back, hip, croup, neck and head are all wonderful. I believe in this colt very much.” He is only improving with age and would make a spectacular show and breeding stallion. Enshallah Naji deserves to continue to leave his unique mark wherever the future takes him."

 

[Onyxia]

Ohh your back

Can we have a flood of Tobago photos please? He is a seriously sexy beast!

The arab is,IMO the king of all horses and I adore the way they look.
Assuming the dish doesnt hurt the horse and that people are breeding for sound animals able to do a job in the future I cant not for the life of me understand why anyone would have an issue with the way a horse looks to the point that they become nasty about it-there is a type of horse to suit every taste out there,but even when a horse/breed/type is not your cup of tea you should be able to apriciate a quality animal when you see one(not about your OP and foal BTW,just general mumblings more or less on the topic

).

[ QUOTE ]
And I do agree that there is an ethical problem when people breed for any one characteristic at the expense of other more important attributes, such as soundness, good conformation, limbs, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would hope anyone who cares about horses does too!

 

[treacle86]

I have an anglo arab , chestnut in my siggie and I love pure breds, part breds and anglos.

I know that there can be extreme breeding in every breed and every species, dogs, cats, horses etc , breeders should be breeding for health , conformation and ability for the horses intended purposes .
Temperament and a good healthy, sound animal is what should be being bred.

I think the foalie is gorgeous , the picture shows his neck bent and doesnt really show his face very well , but he seems lovely . As does the mare and stallion . also I think white markings accentuate a dished face.

I have always beleived ,( i read a book as a child )that Arabians are quite different to other horses with regards to their bodies, bone structure, and their skeletons, arabs have a large heart and large lungs , they vary from other horses as they have less vertabrae , with 5 lumbar , 17 ribs , and 16 tail bones , compared to another horse with 6 lumbar , 18 ribs and 18 tail bones . And the dished face varies from type to type , some more pronounced through breeding programs possible , but they have large nostrils to get as much air to the horse, the concave face is said to be to allow hot desert air to be cooled before it reaches the horses lungs .


What does everyone know or think of this ????

xxxx

 

[clchambers]

I am surprised to see my colt on your Thread as the photo is copywrited and you do not have permission to use it. I would like for you to refrain from using it in the future. I suppose it is flattering to know it is getting seen. I perfer a dished face to a flat profile but I know of many Arabs with a flat profile that I consider very classic and have even bred to. We do not breed exclusivly to produce an exteme head on our foals.

This colt does have an exotic head but I would not call it extreme and he has no breathing problems. Most foals have a more extreme head when they are first born it changes as the foal grows. This colt was only a few weeks old when this photo was taken. Sorry you do not appriciate him, he is such a charmer in person. If you ever get the chance I would love to have you come and see him.

 

[3BayGeldings]

EEA you should contact Admin and have the photo removed. Not on that Sirena used and posted it when it was copyrighted.

 

[SirenaXVI]

I do apologise, I did not realise that the picture was copyrited, I just did a google search on arab heads! Consider it removed.

 

[Tinypony]

I think you might find the other two photos are copyright as well?

 

[clchambers]

Thank you for removing the photo although I wasn't going to push it. It is the photographers who get upset when they don't get paid for their work. Any photo with a signature is a copywrite. I would upload a full body shot of Enshallah Naji if I could figure out how to do it. He is really a handsome colt with an engaging personality. As you can tell he has got me love-struck.

 

[bexandspooky]

The way he is holding his head accentuates the shape, I wouldn't worry, or care what other peoples opinion of him is - at the end of the day, as long as the owner is pleased with him, then that is what counts. I prefer the crabbet type arab to the more exotic, but at the same time, can see the beauty in those.

(What was the forum that it was discussed on - pm me if you like!!)

The american mare that caused so much controversy was Namucsa - see link

http://www.kakagiarabians.com/namusca.htm

I personally think that she is deformed, and a trait such as this should not be encouraged or bred on, and most certainly not advertised as exotic!! From what I understand (I think someone else mentioned earlier on in the thread) she didn't seem to breed this on, but all the same.....the foal is certainly not in this league!!