Princess Anne's eat more horsemeat comment

3OldPonies

3OldPonies

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Just wondering what other people made of the comment from Princess Anne about eating more horse meat in this country?

Personally I'm appalled that she thinks this could be a way to solve the welfare crisis - surely it would make it worse because there would be more not less horses being badly treated if they were being bred indiscriminately for meat. Not only that her assumption that people would treat their horses better if they thought they'd get money by selling them for meat at the end of their lives is way off, if you've nurtured, cared for and competed your horse would you really be selling it for meat at that awful time that we all dread? Of course not. And the poor things that really are part of the welfare crisis will just be bred from more and more to supply a new market. Also, if there were a meat price of more than a couple of quid on a horse's life - how fast would theft increase as inscrupulous people just took them from fields (as happens now with cattle, pigs and sheep)?

Sorry, but I think she has made a really mis-placed and ill-informed comment this time. The only way to stop the welfare crisis is to stop indiscriminate breeding and also sort the economy out so that honest, hard working, caring owners aren't being forced into giving up or PTS their equines in order to keep a roof over their own heads.
 
3OldPonies said:
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Personally I'm appalled that she thinks this could be a way to solve the welfare crisis - surely it would make it worse because there would be more not less horses being badly treated if they were being bred indiscriminately for meat. ........
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The Lady made perfect sense. When we give horses an end of life value, then better care will be taken of them, and not as you assume, worse. The rest of the world seems to consider horses as farm stock. When we are just about the only nation which is out of step with the rest of the world, then it begs the question as to how right we are.

Not what you want to hear, I realise and I apologise, but there is a swelling of those who consider that we can't carry on in the neglectful way that we do. It would seem that the Princess Royal's amongst them too.

Alec.
 
No need to apologise Alec. I did ask for people's views and if they don't agree with mine that's fine - I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want to know!

And at least we are agreed on one thing, that the current situation can't be allowed to continue.
 
I thought well done Princess Anne for broaching the subject! If horse "farming" was regulated like beef, sheep, pig farming surley it would improve the lives of so many equines and help regulate breeding.At the moment there is no market for horses/ponies.
 
As you point out in your last par, they are already being bred indiscriminately, I'd personally prefer that the surplus animals be utilised rather than PTS or left to fester. If the revelations are to be believed, a lot of us have been eating horsemeat unawares already so I don't see a huge problem with what she's saying.
 
Alec Swan said:
The Lady made perfect sense. When we give horses an end of life value, then better care will be taken of them, and not as you assume, worse. The rest of the world seems to consider horses as farm stock. When we are just about the only nation which is out of step with the rest of the world, then it begs the question as to how right we are.

Not what you want to hear, I realise and I apologise, but there is a swelling of those who consider that we can't carry on in the neglectful way that we do. It would seem that the Princess Royal's amongst them too.

Alec.
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Completely agree with you Alec

Cattle, sheep and pigs are all cared for and nutured, prior to entering the food chain, the carcases are graded and the producer is paid per kg depending on the grade the beast makes which in my eyes is a good thing, as the animals are far better cared for to ensure the payout is higher. In my eyes if horses became more common as meat then the people who are trying to make a quick buck from ill treated poorly bred stock would soon be out of business.

ETA: People who keep horses as a hobby or pets etc., will continue, as i see it to have their "friends" PTS the same as they do currently, most of our horses couldn't enter the food chain anyhow as nearly all of them will have had some form of drug that will negate them from entering the food chain. No horse of mine would go for meat, down to my personal preference and due to the fact they have all had bute at some point.
 
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If we ate horsemeat in this country, then the trade would be regulated as well as that for other livestock.

Currently you can trace a cow/sheep/pig from it's grandparents x 5 (for example) to the slaughter house.

It is my belief that such a trade would help to end the appalling conditions equines suffer in being transported abroad and also help stop the indiscriminate breeding of horses we see in this country, as only horses that are seen fit and healthy will be allowed to enter the food chain.

There is a worse fate than PTS humanely - stuck in a field, left to starve etc etc....

Not saying it guarantees to end all cruelty, but by heck, I bet it would make a difference....
 
I was once told in regard to rare breeds, that the only way to save them is to eat them.

I feel that this comment could apply to a lot of animals if we made them a valuable end product.
I disagree that there would be more neglectful activity and theft as now with cattle those that are in poor condition dont sell so well as they do not have the desireable cuts therefore if people look after them better then they would sell better. Also this would be what the equine industry needs to kcik them up the rear end and tighten up the passport system, if the whole thing was truely legalised and done properly then you wouldn't be able to take an animal to the abbatoir without its passport in the correct ownership details.

I was discussing the BHS newsletter the other day with my instructor and we were saying how one of their key points was cheaper disposal is needed for horses. This is right. Many horses are being neglected and abandoned today because unless you have at least £500 to spare then you cannot have a horse PTS. So people instead are leaving them as they cannot afford it. Whereas if they made it that we could legally sell our horses then this would allow people who can no longer keep the horse to sell it without costs.

Currently the value on low grade horses is as little as a few £10 notes, some people cannot even give their horses away. If you put a meat value on them then you increase that immediately close to £300 if not more. These animals would then be worth something.
 
Templebar said:
I was discussing the BHS newsletter the other day with my instructor and we were saying how one of their key points was cheaper disposal is needed for horses. This is right. Many horses are being neglected and abandoned today because unless you have at least £500 to spare then you cannot have a horse PTS. So people instead are leaving them as they cannot afford it. Whereas if they made it that we could legally sell our horses then this would allow people who can no longer keep the horse to sell it without costs.
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Templebar - that is an interesting point you make about disposal costs and very valid I should think in some cases. If you are having financial diffiiculties for whatever reason then finding the money for PTS is probably a real reason why so many horses and ponies are being abandoned with charities or left to fend for themselves.
 
I've always wondered why we don't eat horsemeat in this country. It makes perfect sense. The only problem I have with it is the transport and destruction of horses. When they're sent for meat, they shouldn't be herded into overcrowded lorries and denied basic comforts. If they were PTS in the UK, as opposed to being sent abroad, then surely there wouldn't be those problems. I used to mince horse meat for the kennels and I have to say that it smelled delicious. Sorry to those who don't agree.
 
Giving them a livestock status probably would improve the welfare of horses being transported for slaughter abroad.

However it could have massive implications to the use of horses for sport and leisure if the extremely strict controls of movement of livestock were imposed on all horse movements.

A lot of thought would have to go into the practicalities.
 
Lizzie66 said:
Giving them a livestock status probably would improve the welfare of horses being transported for slaughter abroad.

However it could have massive implications to the use of horses for sport and leisure if the extremely strict controls of movement of livestock were imposed on all horse movements.

A lot of thought would have to go into the practicalities.
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I don't see why it should. They do not have the same diseases that cattle do so with horses there would be no need to inform DEFRA any time you wanted to go to a show, clinic, whatever as long as the horse was still permanently kept at the same premises with the same owner. You'd only need to inform them if you've sold the horse or it's moved permanently away. Very simple. The cattle database is easy to use and pretty efficient, would be good to have something as good for horses.

As an add on to what PA has written, I'd also do a round up of anything that does not have a micro cip at present and they can start the ball rolling by being first in line on the slab. We have to get rid of them some how.
 
I heard a welfare represenative on the TV this morning and appreciate that the real problem is the difficulty in proving who owns the horse as I am sure the 2000 ponies on the Welsh hills have no passports as they need to. As DEFRA have never enforced this legislation the people in this trade ignore the regulations completely. One other area of concern is the fact that most owners do not realise how the end of life costs have increased. Vets who cover large yards like all the horses to have section IX signed not for human consumpstion as this makes their decision which drugs to use muck easier. I had a case where a vet did the flu/vac with the aid of a groom and the owner sent a horse for slaughter for human consumption only to discover that the vet had signed all the horses out and never told her.
 
I don't see that it would present a damage welfare either.

Here's a welfare case from my locality this summer:

(JOE BLOGGS), of (ADDRESS) was sentenced at (LOCAL TOWN) Magistrates’ Court on 21 June 2013 of one charge under the Welfare of Animals (Transport) Regulations (LOCAL REGION) 2006. Mr Bloggs had previously pleaded guilty on this charge.
Mr Bloggs was fined £400 plus £30 costs.

This case involved the transport of two cows over 30 miles to (NAMED) abattoir where on arrival the (Govt) veterinary officer found that one cow had a chronically infected, deformed left hind foot and had possible hip enlargement and abscessation of both hips. The animal was bearing minimal weight on the left hind leg. The hock and both hips of this carcase was condemned as being unfit for human consumption.

The other cow was thin and had a chronically infected, swollen and painful right hind foot on which it was bearing minimal weight. The carcase of this animal was condemned as being unfit for human consumption.

In the opinion of the official veterinarian at (meat company), the transportation of these two animals from (twon) to (company) caused them further unnecessary suffering.

....so, it is often the meat plants/vets who pick up on welfare cases.
 
There might be a good suggestion here, but if this did happen, how many people would actually eat horsemeat within the UK I wonder?
 
3OldPonies said:
Personally I'm appalled that she thinks this could be a way to solve the welfare crisis - surely it would make it worse because there would be more not less horses being badly treated if they were being bred indiscriminately for meat..
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Horses are already bred indiscriminately.

I agree with Princess Anne. I can't understand why the UK is so squeamish about eating horses, and horses going for slaughter. As long as the animal has a good life and a good death, why does it matter what happens to the carcass?
 
Alec Swan said:
The Lady made perfect sense. When we give horses an end of life value, then better care will be taken of them, and not as you assume, worse. The rest of the world seems to consider horses as farm stock. When we are just about the only nation which is out of step with the rest of the world, then it begs the question as to how right we are.

Not what you want to hear, I realise and I apologise, but there is a swelling of those who consider that we can't carry on in the neglectful way that we do. It would seem that the Princess Royal's amongst them too.

Alec.
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I agree with this. Better price for horse at end of life better care taken. I personally don't agree with the idea but the logics are there and cant be denied
 
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I'm not anti-horsemeat but not sure this would solve the current welfare problem-except for those poor squibs that are bred and never receive any vet treatment, such as the DHP and welshies. I am all for all horses having a basic value though-and they don't atm. are the above breeds ones we could eat and is it worthwhile using such types? What we need is an affordable way for horses to go to slaughter, should their owners choose it or need it-but most leisure horses will have had bute.
 
Is there not still a market for horsemeat abroad. I know at the moment they are travelled live, but if they were slaughtered here and sent abroad ? Although shortage of abatoirs here Not nice to think about but things are desperate now
 
Why is horse meat so cheap ? Because its a nasty trade dealing with desperate horses. we're not talking about farmed livestock with all the costs that producing quality meat from farming entails.
The horsemeat reaching your cottage pie has come from a fraudulent source. Horse slaughter on the continent and here in the UK is not a pleasant business with proper regulation. The horses were once someone's pet, or someone's hope for a derby winner. Those horses knew better times. It is the ultimate betrayal to be penned with other strange and frightened horses arriving daily at a slaughter house with no care and minimal hay and water, that the stronger horses get access to. They may be in those conditions for up to 5 or 6 days with strange horses arriving during that time. They can smell the slaughter.

If horses are farmed from birth like cattle, with the same regulations here in the UK, it would be more acceptable. I suspect farmers of cattle, sheep and pigs would not want to compete with a market of unregulated horsemeat for human consumption as it would affect their prices.
But then, I did not think the UK is suffering from a shortage of meat anyway.
 
As I read the statement after she said "throw it out there to discuss"

Which is exactly what we are doing!

Personally I think it would be better if they were slaughtered at home and the meat shipped rather than the live horses.
Also gives people choice over the food that they eat.

I find that it is similar to the fish debate. Pollock is a cheap cod alternative, many if not all of the supermarkets "breaded fish" or "battered fish" that you find in the freezer will be Pollock rather than cod, I don't really see how it is that different if you gave the people a choice of "meat lasagne" and "beef lasagne"

Surely it comes down to the customers in the market place
 
I think its a valid argument - people obviously don't mind the taste

Horses have no residual value, so I think this can only be a good thing. If we could get all their related products and services VAT free, that would be great

However yes we would have to be strict, and 90% of horses would be out of the food chain for having bute in their lives. So drug companies would need to spend more testing their products (i.e. same antibiotic has a withdrawal period for cows but writes a horse out of the food chain is illogical)

I would eat horse, just not my own!
 
Saneta said:
There might be a good suggestion here, but if this did happen, how many people would actually eat horsemeat within the UK I wonder?
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Wouldn't bother me, I guess I have already probably eaten it already either in the UK under false labelling or in France or Italy as a generic 'steak' . I have eaten donkey in Sardinia.
 
dianchi said:
As I read the statement after she said "throw it out there to discuss"

Which is exactly what we are doing!

Personally I think it would be better if they were slaughtered at home and the meat shipped rather than the live horses.
Also gives people choice over the food that they eat.

I find that it is similar to the fish debate. Pollock is a cheap cod alternative, many if not all of the supermarkets "breaded fish" or "battered fish" that you find in the freezer will be Pollock rather than cod, I don't really see how it is that different if you gave the people a choice of "meat lasagne" and "beef lasagne"

Surely it comes down to the customers in the market place
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I agree with this. Def be slaughter here in UK rather then transported alive in horrific conditions as we have seen on the continent many times.

Re if people will eat horse meat that's something that be discussed. I think as long as the consumer knew they were buying horse meat unlike the scandal last winter then it may prove an answer to a growing welfare problem
 
Yes, there are several insurmountable problems.
1] Most horses are treated with drugs, and many passports are signed off. This cannot be altered
2] Many areas of the country don't have suitable facilities for slaughtering for human consumption
3] The UK trend for animal slaughter is for fewer facilities, meaning extended transportation, how would this suit the horse owner.
4] Cattle can be penned in groups in the lairage, I believe they have to be starved before slaughter, is this acceptable?
5] Horses are more likely to be difficult to handle and panic, break legs.
6]Welfare organisations have been campaigning on behalf of equids for years, but they are still moving across country boundaries, live. This is not a good solution.
7] Consumer resistance.
 
I have only just seen the news item, and had already had her comments misquoted to me.

I don't think that a trade in horsemeat would bring improved welfare. There are lots of countries in Europe where horsemeat is consumed and welfare is appalling.

Please BBC stop talking about the horsemeat consumption in France. Very few French people eat horsemeat. My local supermarkets have never more than two packs on display from where???? Canada!!!

My village butcher used to be a horsemeat specialist, it is never on display and is sold only if asked for. He buys his horsemeat from Canada too!!

There is insufficient demand to by a whole horse.
 
I personally don't want to eat horse meat but I don't have an issue with those who do!! If there is a chance that our equine friends would have a better regulated life and that there is a market for them then hopefully we won't see so many neglected abused and downtrodden horses. We used to have 4 chickens which were pets but I still eat chicken (although I would have not eaten my "ladies")
 
MrsD123 said:
Yes, there are several insurmountable problems.
1] Most horses are treated with drugs, and many passports are signed off. This cannot be altered
2] Many areas of the country don't have suitable facilities for slaughtering for human consumption
3] The UK trend for animal slaughter is for fewer facilities, meaning extended transportation, how would this suit the horse owner.
4] Cattle can be penned in groups in the lairage, I believe they have to be starved before slaughter, is this acceptable?
5] Horses are more likely to be difficult to handle and panic, break legs.
6]Welfare organisations have been campaigning on behalf of equids for years, but they are still moving across country boundaries, live. This is not a good solution.
7] Consumer resistance.
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So what would your suggestions be?

1] The main stumbling block is the use of (generic) Bute, but it was formerly in common usage for humans. The minimal risk to humans of the residual traces, stored within the horse, was the leverage behind the relevant page within the passport.
2] I know of a nearly new (as in barely used) abattoir which is now mothballed, but with such resistance from those who have an eye to their fund raising stance, and the fact that my requests of the welfare charities who are (or were) refusing to accept the need for a worthwhile end for our hoses, I've rather given up.
3] See above. There are plenty of facilities around the Country which could be re-opened.
4] Not so, but having livestock empty makes for cleaner, easier and faster work. The question could easily be addressed by offering forage, and with a correctly run establishment, lairage facilities would be better than we see in many equine market places.
5] Again, see above. There's no earthly reason why horses should be stressed unduly at the point of slaughter. Correctly done, they are NOT treated like cattle, and they would be led into and stand in a room.
6] The answer to that is simple. More small and low-throughput abattoirs.
7] Yes, that's a problem. Without the support of Government and welfare charities, and the horse owning public, the Princess Royal's incentive will be lost.

I've felt for some while now that we can't continue as we are. I've written to the HSA, to welfare organisations, and to those who could bring about change, but not one of them have the balls to stand up and do what's right. Apparently, the rspca are now showing some interest following on from this morning's news. Presumably they'll need to assess the likelihood of the impact that such a stance will have upon their fund raising abilities. All that it'll need will be for the WHS to stand against such a move, and the rspca's CEO will be taking a wage cut!

Alec.
 
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