Princess Anne's eat more horsemeat comment

I think it is flawed logic. The problem is with feral and indiscriminate breeding none of which would be suitable for human consumption in accordance with laws to protect human health. All horses would have to be specially bred, tagged, passported and treated like a fully traceable agricultural animal. If money were the only driver for breeding we wouldn't have over-breeding, much of it is cultural and due to ignorance and lack of care.
 
dogatemysalad said:
Why is horse meat so cheap ? Because its a nasty trade dealing with desperate horses. we're not talking about farmed livestock with all the costs that producing quality meat from farming entails.
The horsemeat reaching your cottage pie has come from a fraudulent source. Horse slaughter on the continent and here in the UK is not a pleasant business with proper regulation. The horses were once someone's pet, or someone's hope for a derby winner. Those horses knew better times. It is the ultimate betrayal to be penned with other strange and frightened horses arriving daily at a slaughter house with no care and minimal hay and water, that the stronger horses get access to. They may be in those conditions for up to 5 or 6 days with strange horses arriving during that time. They can smell the slaughter.

If horses are farmed from birth like cattle, with the same regulations here in the UK, it would be more acceptable. I suspect farmers of cattle, sheep and pigs would not want to compete with a market of unregulated horsemeat for human consumption as it would affect their prices.
But then, I did not think the UK is suffering from a shortage of meat anyway.
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Absolutely agree.
 
This has been a long time coming, I sincerely hope that the Welfare Charities give this some very serious thought. IF welfare is at the top of their agendas they will support the supervised, correctly organised slaughter of horses for human consumption in Britain either for export or home use.

I do fear that there is the possibility that an influence against this may be financial ....... if there is no welfare issue and horses do have a realistic end value some of the charities will go out of business. As things stand so many horses are a financial liability, they have no hope, the cost of having them pts has become ridiculous, no wonder so many are being abandoned. Legislation will no doubt be brought in to deal with withdrawal periods for various drugs and frankly those horses who are unwanted, dangerous, lame etc but healthy will have a good value, those horses who are as above but signed out of the human food chain will be at best worthless at worst a financial liability.

It is not just the indiscriminate breeders who find themselves with an overload of stock, the country is awash with unwanted, neglected horses.

Time for horsemeat to be properly labeled as just that or as a part of a pie etc...... and sold here or exported..... let the customer decide.
 
Perhaps this country needs to look into some of the appalling behaviour that goes on in slaughter houses before we even start thinking about sending horses there for meat. I'm not saying all of them at all but some proper supervision needs to be at these places for all the animals that end up there.
 
Why can't we have licences for ownership of horses and do the same with dog ownership?? I personally think it is a good idea what P Anne has suggested though not sure i need to be told that i'm eating horsemeat, but after all the recent supermarket scandal of having horsemeat in various readymeals and the population ate quite happily, I can't see a great issue...bar the management from beginning to end..its a big project.
 
I'm with PA.

Surely a swift dispatch on UK shores is better than being shipped abroad?

It's not like it doesn't already happen legitimately in the UK. There is also evidence of backyard slaughter happening, and that is totally unregulated. People need to accept the abattoir as a means of disposal for the unwanted horses. Those who don't are inhibiting the progress towards it, and ensuing continuing suffering.

Worse than death, there is suffering.
 
We have been a country who regards horses as pets and as a means to travel for so many years, and also been a country who regards horses not meals to fill the belly for so long. I am amazed that the Royal party has made a comment like this when horses have always been highly regarded in the Royal family.


The idea of eating a horse make my stomach churn. I for one still think of the UK as horse free consumption. I have had these view and a long with 1000 of others. Feel disgusted in her comment.
With the outrage of recent events of it found in our food chain, I am not alone in thinking this way.
Could not even look at a plate of it grosssss
 
shannonandtay said:
Perhaps this country needs to look into some of the appalling behaviour that goes on in slaughter houses before we even start thinking about sending horses there for meat. I'm not saying all of them at all but some proper supervision needs to be at these places for all the animals that end up there.
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There is supervision, do you mean chickens?........ do you eat meat?
 
Does it matter whether it's chickens or not? I'm talking about all animals that go to slaughter, and some of the undercover filming showing cruelty that can occur. Obviously if those places we're being supervised at the time then it's not good enough is it, as I said not all abbatoirs obviously. Sorry if I've made a point about cruelty that you don't like and whether I eat meat or not makes no difference does it.
 
Abbatoirs and meat plants in the UK are well run and supervised on the whole, one bad video doesn't mean that all abbatoirs are run in the same way, for instance, the welfare case I mentioned on page one was detected AT the meat plant when the animals arrived.
 
shannonandtay said:
Does it matter whether it's chickens or not? I'm talking about all animals that go to slaughter, and some of the undercover filming showing cruelty that can occur. Obviously if those places we're being supervised at the time then it's not good enough is it, as I said not all abbatoirs obviously. Sorry if I've made a point about cruelty that you don't like and whether I eat meat or not makes no difference does it.
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You don't get my point.......... of course cruelty can occur at any time, whether in the abattoir or en route, or "at home".
We kill millions of chickens every year. In the UK most are killed under controlled conditions, and the "pre killing " room is darkish and is quiet. These conditions are considered acceptable by meat eaters. They are acceptable under UK laws.
I am just citing chickens as an example, in times gone by, this would not be a consideration, but "the consumer" considers that meat on the shelves has been raised and killed in a legal and a human way.
 
I'm unsure about allowing pet animals that have been or need to be PTS used as food.Not a terrible idea on the surface,but would be difficult to bring about and monitor safely I would have thought.

On the farming issue,breeding and treating them like any other livestock,and them being subject to the same rules and treated well etc,can't see how that will work at all TBH.

Not all livestock are treated 'well' despite regulation and legislation.Adequately for their type and needs maybe but it would be deluded to think horses could live that kind of lifestyle or that the average farmer would have the funds or inclination to treat them 'well'.

Horses have more complex needs than other livestock,would farmers really cater for this and the other special requirements they have?? Is horsemeat desired enough as a food source in this country for the returns to be enough to ensure good standards of care??

I am not saying BTW that all livestock should or needs to have the highest levels of care,I am more than aware that's not feasible,but horses need very different things to other meat bred animals we have in this country,which is maybe why we haven't ever been a nation that has them the same as we have cattle etc,perhaps we just can't facilitate their requirements as some other countries can??

I suspect the type of horses that suffer the most now would still be the ones worst off,there would just be greater numbers of them and the people keeping them instead of being dealers would be calling themselves farmers.
 
Round our way [Scotland] there are no horsemeat abattoirs, and since it is difficult to dispose on land, most are destined for the knackerman, who will kill on site then remove the carcass.
This must be the most humane method.
HRH Anne has not just thrown this out without due consideration, it is a concern she has raised, to find a practical solution and to end suffering.
Vets recommend "signing off" the passport, and once "signed off" the meat cannot enter the food chain.
 
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MrsD123 said:
You don't get my point.......... of course cruelty can occur at any time, whether in the abattoir or en route, or "at home".
We kill millions of chickens every year. In the UK most are killed under controlled conditions, and the "pre killing " room is darkish and is quiet. These conditions are considered acceptable by meat eaters. They are acceptable under UK laws.
I am just citing chickens as an example, in times gone by, this would not be a consideration, but "the consumer" considers that meat on the shelves has been raised and killed in a legal and a human way.
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I understand what you mean and yes if animals are killed in controlled conditions then I don't have a problem with that. I meant that there seems to be a lot of cruelty before the actually killing process as in the horrible footage taken of animals being beaten and tortured for fun, I think in general there's more cruelty around in homes etc that we don't know about but I was trying to say that this needs to be addressed properly in abbatoirs so at least these animal s have some dignity in their last moments .
 
dianchi said:
As I read the statement after she said "throw it out there to discuss"

Which is exactly what we are doing!

Personally I think it would be better if they were slaughtered at home and the meat shipped rather than the live horses.
Surely it comes down to the customers in the market place
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Wrong.....there is a lot of legislation. ... and for good reason....
If we followed your logic we would find people killing home grown animals at home, by whatever means available, and selling off bits in plastic bags to back street restaurants.
This already happens unfortunately, tho it is usually what happens to rustled sheep/cattle.

On another tack: customers of Tesco have voted with their feet in spite of Jamie Oliver's campaign, ........ they continue to purchase chicken meat and other meats which have been raised in legal conditions, but not welfare friendly conditions.
 
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shannonandtay said:
I understand what you mean and yes if animals are killed in controlled conditions then I don't have a problem with that. I meant that there seems to be a lot of cruelty before the actually killing process as in the horrible footage taken of animals being beaten and tortured for fun, I think in general there's more cruelty around in homes etc that we don't know about but I was trying to say that this needs to be addressed properly in abbatoirs so at least these animal s have some dignity in their last moments .
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Of course, we all want animals to have a peaceful end, and things have improved steadily over the years, as our knowledge and understanding increases, the conditions in slaughterhouses have improved.
There are already laws in many countries to prevent cruelty, but enforcement is variable, as is what is considered acceptable.
 
Alec Swan said:
So what would your suggestions be?

1] The main stumbling block is the use of (generic) Bute, but it was formerly in common usage for humans. The minimal risk to humans of the residual traces, stored within the horse, was the leverage behind the relevant page within the passport.
2] I know of a nearly new (as in barely used) abattoir which is now mothballed, but with such resistance from those who have an eye to their fund raising stance, and the fact that my requests of the welfare charities who are (or were) refusing to accept the need for a worthwhile end for our hoses, I've rather given up.
3] See above. There are plenty of facilities around the Country which could be re-opened.
4] Not so, but having livestock empty makes for cleaner, easier and faster work. The question could easily be addressed by offering forage, and with a correctly run establishment, lairage facilities would be better than we see in many equine market places.
5] Again, see above. There's no earthly reason why horses should be stressed unduly at the point of slaughter. Correctly done, they are NOT treated like cattle, and they would be led into and stand in a room.
6] The answer to that is simple. More small and low-throughput abattoirs.
7] Yes, that's a problem. Without the support of Government and welfare charities, and the horse owning public, the Princess Royal's incentive will be lost.

I've felt for some while now that we can't continue as we are. I've written to the HSA, to welfare organisations, and to those who could bring about change, but not one of them have the balls to stand up and do what's right. Apparently, the rspca are now showing some interest following on from this morning's news. Presumably they'll need to assess the likelihood of the impact that such a stance will have upon their fund raising abilities. All that it'll need will be for the WHS to stand against such a move, and the rspca's CEO will be taking a wage cut!

Alec.
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The whole idea is not commercial, who is going to subsidise it?
A recent quote for me was £300 for disposal.
There was no way I would send my horse on a journey of 500 miles to be slaughtered in a place I do not know and have no control over. I would not consider it acceptable for "my boy"
Of course the RSPCA are going to respond, what else would they do.
 
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MrsD123 said:
The whole idea is not commercial, who is going to subsidise it?
A recent quote for me was £300 for disposal.
There was no way I would send my horse on a journey of 500 miles to be slaughtered in a place I do not know and have no control over. I would not consider it acceptable for "my boy"
Of course the RSPCA are going to respond, what else would they do.
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It will subsidise itself the way Potters already does.

And people like you are not the problem. Except in your aversion to the idea.

Please don't bury your head in the sand about the amount of horses that are continually on the market merry go round, until someone either ships them to slaughter, or they get bought by a clown and suffer abuse and awful circumstances, or they are dumped or abandoned (such as those of Tom Price's) until they die of neglect.

Surely a relatively quick local death is way preferable to all of the above?
 
MrsD123 said:
The whole idea is not commercial, who is going to subsidise it?
........
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Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, the idea would be that ALL equine abattoirs would be run on a commercial basis. The two existing premises run at a profit (or try to), but with the welfare bodies, and those who would have every horse spend its days in a field of daisies, with the sun shining, leaning on those who make the regulations by which we live, and by pressure, so they let in by a side door, what I believe is the page known as Section IX, whereby any owner, during the horse's life can sign the "Not for slaughter" clause, and the next owner will be taking on a liability.

When those who engineered the prescriptive legislation (mostly the charities and welfare groups all jockeying for position around the trough of charity), managed to make the slaughter of horses for human consumption virtually impossible, at least on a truly commercial scale, then they probably couldn't see the frightful mess that their short sighted decisions have led us in to. We now have welfare cases which are truly appalling, we have what are loosely referred to as "rescues" and the truth is that many of the wretched and imprisoned creatures (useful none the less at persuading others to slacken their purse strings), should be humanely despatched. The bulk of these poor creatures are not fit for a commercial end, because whilst their probably not fit to travel, they're also as poor as old rooks, and of no value. Before these animals reached this dreadful state, they should have been offered the chance of a decent and humane end, and whilst they were of some value.

Whilst a horse has a perceived value it stands a better chance of being cared for, if only for its owner to protect their investment.

Let us imagine that the welfare groups, the charities and those who administer to the well being of both us and our animals, actually take on board the problem, and accept that they are largely responsible for this mess, then with the "trade" improved, with a profit margin, with State veterinary supervision, as there is (or should be) in conventional abattoirs, with permanent and maintained CCTV recording facilities for those who think that it'll help, we can have a correct and well managed equine slaughter system which will be the envy of the world. Wherever horses are slaughtered, from Europe to Australia and America, the system is flawed. The protocols for correct equine slaughter are not followed, abattoirs which kill cattle and sheep, probably set aside one day a week for horses , and they can't be treated as farm stock, at the point of slaughter. Potters are about as good as it is, but even then, it's far from ideal, and with the plan for a viable business, so there would be a need for serious financial investment, and if that happy state ever arrives, it's already long overdue!

I'm sorry if I've rather "gone on", but it's a subject about which I feel very strongly.

Amongst the hoards of those who think that a slaughter trade would be wrong, I've yet to hear any viable alternative, apart from relaxing the laws and having a shooting and burial system. Perhaps it'll come to that, yet!

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, the idea would be that ALL equine abattoirs would be run on a commercial basis.
Amongst the hoards of those who think that a slaughter trade would be wrong, I've yet to hear any viable alternative, apart from relaxing the laws and having a shooting and burial system. Perhaps it'll come to that, yet!

Alec.
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We can't have a shoot and bury system due to pollution of groundwater, one can't bury at home, unless it is a pet AND not near groundwater.

The two existing abattoirs must be running at a profit or they would close. but there are only two, which suggest it is not viable to start up new enterprises all over the country.
I confess I do not know anyone who is shipping horses there from Scotland, or Ireland, though it may be going on, presumably it is not solving the problem.

The local facilities here send meat for pet food [i think], but there must be a lot of biological waste.
We hear of people "rescuing" horses from slaughter, this is their prerogative, but not too many people do get involved, they realise it is a huge commitment. Far better to donate to a charity.

If there are people all over the country who are neglecting their animals, and I know there are, then the Law should be enforced and the culprits prosecuted. End of.

If anyone watched the recent documentary about the horses of the Great War, they also saw the field abattoir, not a pleasant sight. But people were hungry and the horses were sold for butcher-meat. I don't see that as being an acceptable conclusion for any of the Household Cavalry remounts. I mean acceptable to the general public, not just people who are anti "horse-meat eating" per se.
 
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MrsD123 said:
.......

If there are people all over the country who are neglecting their animals, and I know there are, then the Law should be enforced and the culprits prosecuted. End of.

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Is this the only suggestion that you have to make? Do you have no other possible solutions, or ideas as to how resolve can be reached?

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Is this the only suggestion that you have to make? Do you have no other possible solutions, or ideas as to how resolve can be reached?

Alec.
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No Alec it is not the only suggestion I have to make......... I can send you a picture of my boy after being in the hands of some "HORSE LOVER" for six months, she had to option to lift the phone and ask me to take him back, but she decided starvation was the better option.
 
On the news yesterday was the report about the dartmoor ponies and their plummeting value. Presumably these ponies have had minimal treatment with drugs and could potentially have value for meat. I noticed how many coloured ponies there were and as I understand it piebald and skewbald are not allowed colours for dartmoor ponies. I expect a few coloured ponies have been released on to the moor. If these ponies had a value for meat may be it would help finance a reducuction of the poorly bred ones and get back to a core of good dartmoor type ponies.
 
hoggedmane said:
On the news yesterday was the report about the dartmoor ponies and their plummeting value. Presumably these ponies have had minimal treatment with drugs and could potentially have value for meat. I noticed how many coloured ponies there were and as I understand it piebald and skewbald are not allowed colours for dartmoor ponies. I expect a few coloured ponies have been released on to the moor. If these ponies had a value for meat may be it would help finance a reducuction of the poorly bred ones and get back to a core of good dartmoor type ponies.
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I am not 100% certain of this but am pretty sure they go to the zoo for meat if no other homes can be found.

I'm not sure of the money involved,possibly not a lot if any but then they don't have a lot of size or condition to them a lot of the time so wouldn't be worth much anyway.

What usually happens though from what I've seen is that well meaning people publicise that there are ponies in need of homes,and make please for people to buy them for pennies so they don't go to the zoo.
Often wondered if people often end up regretting the impulse /pity buy and the ponies end up unwanted once more.Probably been better off going to the zoo in the first place in a lot of cases TBH.

Think the breeding situation on the moor is a bit complicated.Not helped by the fact that the Dartmoor hill pony (which is the type you see going for pennies and for meat) aren't a registered breed as such and covers the collective of ponies roaming on the moor,I *think* anyway.True Dartmoor ponies are usually quite sought after and have a reasonable value.As much as I understand it that's the case anyway.

Do all Zoo's use,or have the option to use horse meat?? Maybe that could be utilised more than it is??
 
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