Princess Anne's eat more horsemeat comment

OK, if we accept that this is a crisis born out of economic recession then it should start to ease as we move out of the current economic climate........... this is the sort of rhetoric David Cameron et al will present...........
In the meantime, winter is upon us and if people can't afford to feed their horse they will take whatever option they have been taking ........ no one can suddenly alter legislation overnight in favour of horse welfare, and to be realistic, once the passport is signed, in the long term the horse is destined for pet-food.
Not every problem has a satisfactory solution is what I am saying. if there was one available we would already be going down that route.
 
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Alec Swan said:
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, the idea would be that ALL equine abattoirs would be run on a commercial basis. The two existing premises run at a profit (or try to), but with the welfare bodies, and those who would have every horse spend its days in a field of daisies, with the sun shining, leaning on those who make the regulations by which we live, and by pressure, so they let in by a side door, what I believe is the page known as Section IX, whereby any owner, during the horse's life can sign the "Not for slaughter" clause, and the next owner will be taking on a liability.

When those who engineered the prescriptive legislation (mostly the charities and welfare groups all jockeying for position around the trough of charity), managed to make the slaughter of horses for human consumption virtually impossible, at least on a truly commercial scale, then they probably couldn't see the frightful mess that their short sighted decisions have led us in to. We now have welfare cases which are truly appalling, we have what are loosely referred to as "rescues" and the truth is that many of the wretched and imprisoned creatures (useful none the less at persuading others to slacken their purse strings), should be humanely despatched. The bulk of these poor creatures are not fit for a commercial end, because whilst their probably not fit to travel, they're also as poor as old rooks, and of no value. Before these animals reached this dreadful state, they should have been offered the chance of a decent and humane end, and whilst they were of some value.

Whilst a horse has a perceived value it stands a better chance of being cared for, if only for its owner to protect their investment.

Let us imagine that the welfare groups, the charities and those who administer to the well being of both us and our animals, actually take on board the problem, and accept that they are largely responsible for this mess, then with the "trade" improved, with a profit margin, with State veterinary supervision, as there is (or should be) in conventional abattoirs, with permanent and maintained CCTV recording facilities for those who think that it'll help, we can have a correct and well managed equine slaughter system which will be the envy of the world. Wherever horses are slaughtered, from Europe to Australia and America, the system is flawed. The protocols for correct equine slaughter are not followed, abattoirs which kill cattle and sheep, probably set aside one day a week for horses , and they can't be treated as farm stock, at the point of slaughter. Potters are about as good as it is, but even then, it's far from ideal, and with the plan for a viable business, so there would be a need for serious financial investment, and if that happy state ever arrives, it's already long overdue!

I'm sorry if I've rather "gone on", but it's a subject about which I feel very strongly.

Amongst the hoards of those who think that a slaughter trade would be wrong, I've yet to hear any viable alternative, apart from relaxing the laws and having a shooting and burial system. Perhaps it'll come to that, yet!

Alec.
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Agree with every word you say Alec and particulary the trough of charity bit.Thats not exclusive to horse welfare sadly.I have to say though, that the current heads of the major welfare organizations are possibly not the ones that helped to formulate this mess.Princess Anne has tried to help by at least bringing this situation to the attention of the news, they have only reported it because she says so.They have reported it in a thoroughly irresponsible way in my view.You wonder what else they get wrong!They say people were revolted when they discovered they may have inadvertantly eaten horse.I don't think so.They were more annoyed by the deceit.
 
At Last someone high profile has spoken out about this issue and I fully support her for having the guts to bring the issue up publicly, below is something I have copied and pasted which I posted a while ago, I would fully support any abattoir that started to or was to open to slaughter horses with the correct facilities, and I am still waiting for the first supermarket to have the nerve to put horsemeat on the shelves (legitimately this time)! I think there would actually be a market for it, especially as we have a huge Eastern European population here.


I am certainly against live export of any animal to slaughter let alone equines, and would support any horse abattoir that ran within all the correct regulations and procedures, it would be IMO far better to have any unwanted etc. equines slaughtered here than be exported live, abused or dumped. I know there are many against the slaughter of horses and I think we are too guarded about it in this country if done correctly I see it as no different to cattle, sheep, pigs or poultry being slaughtered as long as it done in a humane way of course, I have mentioned a while ago that if people feel they can or are curious they should go and spend a day in a abattoir (any species), I know many who were pleasantly surprised how humane the process actually was, and by having the whole process explained as to what was happening in detail they had more understanding as to why the process looks horrific. lots of people have an image of the animal twitching whilst and after being bled, yes that happens but the animal is dead, (ok there are exceptions as we have all seen, and lets hope the investigation has a acceptable conclusion) Media and tv have a lot to answer to as when you see someone killed on TV or in a film they just lie still well sorry that does not happen!
 
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Do countries that eat horses have a better standard of horse welfare than the UK? I highly doubt it.

I'm not against humane slaughter but a whole country to change its culture to eat horsemeat is extremely unlikely and not a very viable solution. If we were all starving it might be different but we are not.

Apparently even in Belgium and France only a very small percentage of the population regularly (at least purposely eats horse meat). If so few eat it there where it is a normal part of the culture I can't think that it would catch on here.
 
sussexbythesea said:
Do countries that eat horses have a better standard of horse welfare than the UK? I highly doubt it.

I'm not against humane slaughter but a whole country to change its culture to eat horsemeat is extremely unlikely and not a very viable solution. If we were all starving it might be different but we are not.

Apparently even in Belgium and France only a very small percentage of the population regularly (at least purposely eats horse meat). If so few eat it there where it is a normal part of the culture I can't think that it would catch on here.
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Exactly
 
MrsD123 said:
Round our way [Scotland] there are no horsemeat abattoirs, and since it is difficult to dispose on land, most are destined for the knackerman, who will kill on site then remove the carcass.
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Out of interest, why is it difficult to dispose of a horse on your own land? When mine are PTS, they will be buried in their field - I'd never ever consider getting Douglas Brae (the knacker man up my way!) to come and zap my horse and take the body away.
 
OK we have (and the horse charities which are full to bursting assure us we have) thousands of horses which are facing a winter of startvation and cold.The BHS says we need a cull.What would you sugest we do about this?
 
MagicMelon said:
Out of interest, why is it difficult to dispose of a horse on your own land? When mine are PTS, they will be buried in their field - I'd never ever consider getting Douglas Brae (the knacker man up my way!) to come and zap my horse and take the body away.
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The odd pet horse buried is fine as long as you are not near a spring, well or borehole or near a watercourse that is why it is recommended you check your locality presumably with SEPA in Scotland before burial. Why? Because they rot and the juices from the putrefication could end up in a water supply or polluting a stream. Obviously if you had a mass burial it would be extremely polluting in the wrong place and would also produce a lot of gas.
 
eahotson said:
OK we have (and the horse charities which are full to bursting assure us we have) thousands of horses which are facing a winter of startvation and cold.The BHS says we need a cull.What would you sugest we do about this?
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A suggestion less stupid than the entire country decides to have roast horse instead of turkey for Christmas?

A stupid idea isn't better than no idea.
 
MagicMelon said:
Out of interest, why is it difficult to dispose of a horse on your own land? When mine are PTS, they will be buried in their field - I'd never ever consider getting Douglas Brae (the knacker man up my way!) to come and zap my horse and take the body away.
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A2: Regulation (EC) 1069/2009 provides a derogation in Article 19(a) permitting the burial of pet horses. If you wish to do so, you may bury your pet horse, following your local authority and Scottish Environment Protection Agency guidelines. These are likely to require pet horse burial sites to:

be at least 250 metres away from any well borehole or spring that supplies water
be at least 30 metres from any other spring or watercourse, and at least 10 metres from a field drain
have at least 1 metre of subsoil below the bottom of the burial pit, allowing a hole deep enough for at least 1 metre of soil to cover the carcass
be free of water at the bottom of the hole, when first dug.
You may also dispose of your pet horse at a pet crematorium, or if you are a member of the National Fallen Stock Company you can use their collection service for your horse.

Horses that are not classified as pets must be disposed of as fallen stock.

Note this last line.......... one would have difficulty classifying certain horses as pets if they are used in a commercial operation, also in certain parts of the country it might be difficult to find a suitable site.
 
Personally for me it wouldn't be my choice of action...but i do agree that it could help, it may not end the welfare crisis but it could stop atrocities such as those that occur from traveling horses long distance for slaughter for example.
 
sussexbythesea said:
A suggestion less stupid than the entire country decides to have roast horse instead of turkey for Christmas?

A stupid idea isn't better than no idea.
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I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. Even stupid ideas encourage debate, and the chance of pertinent dialogue. That's a bit t-i-c, but I've yet to hear any realistic suggestions from those who would criticise a commercial slaughter system, and apart from the fact that it's believed to be wrong, few seem to offer any alternatives.

As Rollin (I think it was), has pointed out, on the Continent, their tastes are changing and rather as the "Wet fish trade" here, the popularity and demand for horse meat, are on the wane, with perhaps the older generation finding it palatable. I don't know, but am guessing!

I suspect that those Continental abattoirs which specialise in horses, or at least process them, probably find that the bulk of their sales, go to the processed arm of the meat trade, which is exactly how we've ended up with so much on our supermarket shelves. There is also the pet meat trade, and considering the cost of those commercially produced dog foods which contain meat, there is a ready market for a product, and whilst there needs to be a dedicated slaughter system, and one which is humane and ethical, it remains the only viable answer, that I can see.

MrsD123, that's an interesting post of yours. I've always been convinced that burial of horses was illegal, no matter what their status. I wish that I'd known, the owners of that legend Desert Orchid could have gifted him to me an hour or so before he died. I'd have considered it a privilege to have had the old chap end up here.

I suspect that we're going round in circles with this one, so to the relief of most I'm sure, I'm off!! :)

Alec.
 
So why can't they install webcam CCTV in abattoirs so that the workers know their conduct is being monitored? Wouldn't that push standards up?
 
I haven't read the whole thread but can we look at the practicalities of setting up an equine abattoir from scratch, please?

I can see nothing wrong in PTS, but then as I've explained on another thread, I'm a farmer and life and death are part of the job. So long as the end is humane, I can see no problem.

How would a horse abattoir be financed? I think quite a few abattoirs (don't know about the horse ones) are owned by the local council and rented out to butchery companies. I used to have a kennel of about 50 of my own dogs and fed them on offal (beef tripe passed for human consumption) out of the back door of various abattoirs, so I have visited a few.

I also had a friend who was a game dealer who supplied the pet food manufacturers. The pet food trade is VERY lucrative but extremely competitive so businesses are very fussy over their sources for obvious reasons. My friend used to buy in rabbit heads from other game dealers and had a team of people skinning them. They'd then be processed for the major pet feed companies. One day he asked me, "How much rabbit do you think goes into a tin of rabbit cat food?". I had no idea and said so. "About a teaspoonful". Apparently, the rest is soya, animal by products, meat from the knackerman, etc.

I suspect it is emotion and politics which prevent there being more equine abattoirs. The regulations are pretty strict and I know that the red tape drives the managers of standard abattoirs to distraction! With the outcry over live exports of horses a recent memory, how many entrepreneurs would risk investing in an equine abattoir? How many charities would willingly get involved? (You can imagine what would happen to their contributions from the public if they did!).

So, how would you encourage the establishment of new equine abattoirs? If that can't be done, Princess Ann's words are wasted.
 
I am not against eating horse (as long as it's not one I've been introduced to) but I do need to know that a) it is horse; and b) it has been ethically produced and killed.
 
Nessa4 said:
I am not against eating horse (as long as it's not one I've been introduced to) but I do need to know that a) it is horse; and b) it has been ethically produced and killed.
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If I knew your (a) and (b) then I would be a lot more likely to eat horse. I am not certain I would, but I have always said I don't object to people eating horse as long as it hasn't suffered. I choose to eat free range chicken and buy British pork even though it's more expensive (always buy British meat).

It drives me mad when people go on about how no one cares about the welfare of farm animals. That is an ignorant accusation. My dad for one works very hard to neglect or abuse their livestock face punishment, this is just one case my dad was involved in http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/archive/2004/07/08/7274782._Callous__farmer_jailed/. He is a DEFRA vet and finds the welfare cases the most satisfying. I have seen him come home almost in tears from some of the farms he's been out to inspect. I was home last week and he told me of another farmer he has had prosecuted, this one for travelling cattle who weren't fit to be moved.

I think Princess Anne has spoken a lot of sense. If the kind of people who own the horses that are being dumped or left for dead knew they could get say £200 for meat from the animal (that's a number plucked from the air) if it was in good condition, but nothing if they leave it to starve, they might be more motivated to improve its welfare.

Something needs to be done, and unless everyone who is against the slaughter of healthy but unwanted horses steps up to the plate and they are all rehomed, then what is the point in keeping them alive if it means charities can't take on cases that are more in need?

Animals aren't people, they don't know they are living with a death sentence over their head.

I often say I am as soft as they come, but I'm a realist. I'd love it if every neglected or abused animal could be rescued and live out its life in a nice field, but they can't.

Here's a photo of people queuing for horse meat during WWII.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?sa=X...nh=175&tbnw=148&start=0&ndsp=16&tx=145&ty=226
They were hungry, so they weren't able to be as picky as we are now.
 
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Dry Rot said:
I haven't read the whole thread but can we look at the practicalities of setting up an equine abattoir from scratch, please?

........
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I was off, but've been tempted back. The set up costs of new abattoirs would be prohibitive, even for high and premium valued farm stock. With, or for the commercial slaughter of equines, which would possibly be valued at 1/3 of the value of a bullock, then it would make no sense, what so ever. It would also be true, I suspect, that a very large percentage of those equines going trough the system, would probably not go for human consumption, but in to the pet meat trade.

There are, dotted about the country, many former and small abattoirs which have either been mothballed, or have fallen in to misuse or disrepair. I'd suggest that with Government approval, if not financial assistance, these premisses could be brought back in to business. There would need to be an ethical approach taken whereby the correct slaughter processes were followed, for equines, but the conversion or rejuvenating costs should be within a sensible realm. I'd suggest that the WHW, or Redwings, or any of the other phenomenally wealthy charities could contribute to the set up of the first, and then with approval and a successful system, so lessons could be learned, and subsequent venues be approved and in use, to the benefit of everyone, and especially the equines.

Alec.
 
I think it is certainly a suggestion worth considering. Every year, dartmoor hill ponies are culled- off the moor, you can pick one up for less than £10 easily. As they are essentially wild animals (in the sense they have had no handling or training), they don't have any value as children's mounts. Often, there are welfare issues. These ponies aren't seen by their owners on a regular basis, so they can end up with health conditions/injuries which really need vet attention. These problems can go untreated for long periods of time, as it is hard to trace the owners of the ponies. They often look very poor in winter, and I'm sure in the harder winters, some must die of starvation, although it's hard to find the figures for this.

As their value is so low, and they'll probably be killed anyway, owners don't bother to spend money on castrating them, so more are bred each year, often from mares that aren't that healthy in the first place.

If the ponies are given some value (and currently some local zoos are trying to do this by using the meat to feed their animals), then perhaps the owners will be more interested in the welfare of the animals, and try to breed for a purpose- even if that purpose is meat.

There are charities which do good work with ponies, trying to give them a value as family pets/riding ponies. I'm not suggesting this work should stop.

The BHS is also trying to tackle the problem- through starting to offer subsidised castration for colts/stallions in some areas. However, this program is very new, and it will probably take years to have a noticable impact on the number of unwanted horses/ponies. It also doesn't solve the problem of how we deal with unwanted horses/ponies that are already here.

I think, if horsemeat were produced safely and ethically, there could be a market for it, and this could help solve the problem of unwanted horses. I don't think humane slaughter is the worst thing that can happen to an animal.
 
Horsemeat is not that much cheaper than beef when it's produced in a similar manner. It certainly is a viable product, even for export.

http://boucherie-cheval.fr/viande-chevaline-epices-recettes/

This is the current price breakdown for horse meat at the abattoir in France (no parallel in the UK) as live weight.

http://www.franceagrimer.fr/content/download/27757/245062/file/COT-VRO-equides-A13-S46.pdf

And the beef one.

http://www.franceagrimer.fr/content/download/27760/245104/file/COT-VRO-GBEA_regionale-A13-S46.pdf

I'm not savvy enough to know the breakdown of the liveweight to deadweight (meat) for beef, but it's approx 65% of the liveweight for horses.

On these figures it's certainly viable.
 
Yes! WHW, RSPCA, Redwings etc...... could/should use some of their funds to ensure the set up/supervision/monitoring ......or actually pay for an equine line (and they are different) at an abattoir or to open an existing but closed facility
 
Spook said:
Yes! WHW, RSPCA, Redwings etc...... could/should use some of their funds to ensure the set up/supervision/monitoring ......or actually pay for an equine line (and they are different) at an abattoir or to open an existing but closed facility
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Redwings, as an example, have disposable assets of some £14mil, or thereabouts. With the expenditure of just £0.5mill, a new and purpose built abattoir could be constructed. What would you imagine the chances of that to be? That's it, you've got it, NIL. :p What would be the point of any charity taking steps to end the problem? Why should they render themselves redundant? :D

Alec.
 
Spook said:
Yes! WHW, RSPCA, Redwings etc...... could/should use some of their funds to ensure the set up/supervision/monitoring ......or actually pay for an equine line (and they are different) at an abattoir or to open an existing but closed facility
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I don 't really think these charities would have the expertise etc to run such a business, and from a PR point of view , I can see the headlines now......... it may be contrary to their current policies, and while a horse meat trade seems like a good idea, skinny animals with no case history are not what buyers would require, look at the controls and documentation which are kept by farmers, it is no longer possible just to to keep a few animals for fattening.
 
MrsD123 said:
I don 't really think these charities would have the expertise etc to run such a business, and from a PR point of view , I can see the headlines now......... it may be contrary to their current policies, and while a horse meat trade seems like a good idea, skinny animals with no case history are not what buyers would require, look at the controls and documentation which are kept by farmers, it is no longer possible just to to keep a few animals for fattening.
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Of course they would be able to run an abattoir. It's hardly rocket science. And the point PA made was that there was a greater likelihood of the animals being kept fed when they had a value for doing so.

The enforced documentation would be the biggest step forward. Its the lack thereof that is partially responsible for the mess horses are currently in.
 
Actually historically horses were gathered/bought for fattening in just the same way that cattle and sheep are now....... when they were "fit" they went to slaughter, they were well fed, kept and carefully transported....... bruised stock were/are not well received as that meat had to be rejected. Horse meat was sold in both Leeds and Manchester as late as the 1960s..... and sold as such..

Is there any good reason why an appropriate "withdrawal period" cannot be decided on for horses as it is for all other meat animals?

I agree that the chances of the Charities funding any slaughter houses are almost nil, but that still does not mean that such action would not. be in the best interests of equine welfare........ Indeed in the long run there may well not be enough horses to keep such facilities running all the time unless there is a huge demand for the meat..... then I suppose they will be bred for the job. I agree Mrs D123 that the charities may not have the "expertise"....... but they do have the funds to pay for it.

Failing this, another sensible solution would be for the charities to bite the bullet so to speak and organise a mass funded cull . Perhaps one day a month when you could take a horse in for pts and disposal at the expense of WHW or RSPCA for example...... probably not overly acceptable to them either....... might rattle the vets up a tad too.
 
Caledonia said:
Of course they would be able to run an abattoir. It's hardly rocket science. And the point PA made was that there was a greater likelihood of the animals being kept fed when they had a value for doing so.

The enforced documentation would be the biggest step forward. Its the lack thereof that is partially responsible for the mess horses are currently in.
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Not sure how lack of documentation has contributed to the problem, most pet horses are signed off from the meat trade, and horse owners are not like UK farmers who are already subject to a lot of control, and are used to form filling.
I don't know what extra documentation is required, or how it would help. All I know is that the passport system and the requirement that it is kept with the horse allows people to take horses away from their legal owners, and if they so wish, to dispose of the animal........... I just sold a horse, and presumably the new owner has changed the passport, I have not been informed.
Enforcing microchipping would also add to costs, and when we are talking about animals which are very low value anyway, I think they would end up in the same downward spiral we see today.
 
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How do knackeries operate? Are they government funded in any way? Yes, I realise they have to be paid to take away fallen stock, but then they take everything, even going carcases, and need to be paid. Do they not make a profit on clean fresh knacker meat (i.e. horse)?

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that there is money in pet food. Of course, there is money in horse meat for human consumption but I doubt whether there is sufficient demand for it in this country.

I used to correspond with a Chinese vet in Taiwan. He told me that what I was buying for under £2 for 12kgs to feed to my dogs, he would be paying £12 per kilo for human consumption! He also added, "We Chinese eat everything".

So maybe we could sell our horse meat to the Chinese and I will be able to afford to buy steak again!

I cannot see any of the rescues or charities wanting to be involved in anything that openly involves the slaughter of animals. How many little old ladies would contribute to that?
 
MrsD123 said:
Not sure how lack of documentation has contributed to the problem, most pet horses are signed off from the meat trade, and horse owners are not like UK farmers who are already subject to a lot of control, and are used to form filling.
I don't know what extra documentation is required, or how it would help. All I know is that the passport system and the requirement that it is kept with the horse allows people to take horses away from their legal owners, and if they so wish, to dispose of the animal........... I just sold a horse, and presumably the new owner has changed the passport, I have not been informed.
Enforcing microchipping would also add to costs, and when we are talking about animals which are very low value anyway, I think they would end up in the same downward spiral we see today.
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But it's the lack of traceability that has allowed situations like Tom Price owning thousands of unregistered horses (and the others that do what he does, but as yet haven't been brought to account) and just abandoning those that won't make him money at Appleby or wherever.

If there was traceability, then these situations would be far rarer.
 
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