Princess Anne's eat more horsemeat comment

[Exploding Chestnuts]

But it's the lack of traceability that has allowed situations like Tom Price owning thousands of unregistered horses (and the others that do what he does, but as yet haven't been brought to account) and just abandoning those that won't make him money at Appleby or wherever.

If there was traceability, then these situations would be far rarer.

I don't know the in and the outs, but experience tells me the criminals in society just use any means to make money, they really don't care, and who is going to "police" these matters............ the local police have no expertise, it is not something they would/could take the initiative.
Unregistered horses, I assume you mean un-passported, there is no single register for horses to my knowledge, individual horses are often passported by owners who wish to sell legally, it costs maybe £50, so no one buying horses @£100 is going to bother. Criminals don't bother too much about documentation, it would work to their disadvantage.
In every trade there is potential for criminality, it occurs in the meat trade in spite of documentation and regulation at markets, a place where most meat animals have to go.......... only illegal slaughter can avoid it., but illegal slaughter still occurs, people rustle animals then kill them, then sell the meat. It is illegal, all you need is a dark night, a Stanley knife, and a willing buyer.

 

[Caledonia]

I don't know the in and the outs, but experience tells me the criminals in society just use any means to make money, they really don't care, and who is going to "police" these matters............ the local police have no expertise, it is not something they would/could take the initiative.
Unregistered horses, I assume you mean un-passported, there is no single register for horses to my knowledge, individual horses are often passported by owners who wish to sell legally, it costs maybe £50, so no one buying horses @£100 is going to bother. Criminals don't bother too much about documentation, it would work to their disadvantage.
In every trade there is potential for criminality, it occurs in the meat trade in spite of documentation and regulation at markets, a place where most meat animals have to go.......... only illegal slaughter can avoid it., but illegal slaughter still occurs, people rustle animals then kill them, then sell the meat. It is illegal, all you need is a dark night, a Stanley knife, and a willing buyer.

There would need to be a register for horses if the horse became accepted as a meat animal. And that can only be a good thing. The reason they (the dodgepots) get away with it just now is because there is NO obligatory system. It would, however mean ownership etc was far easier to prove. It might stop the indiscriminate breeding id every animal HAD to be registered, or face a whoppong fine and animals seized.

With a legitimate source for horsemeat in a registered abattoir, the backyard butchers would be way less necessary.

I really don't understand your negativity - with the apathy in your replies, nothing will change.

 

[Holly Hocks]

An issue I see is that if every horse has to have a passport, if someone decides not to fill in the page "not for slaughter", then the vets are unable to give the animal certain drugs and this in itself may cause a welfare issue in that illness/injuries may not receive adequate medication. After all, we've all seen cows and sheep limping round fields. Is that what we want to see horses doing?

 

[Alec Swan]

....... if someone decides not to fill in the page "not for slaughter", then the vets are unable to give the animal certain drugs and this in itself may cause a welfare issue in that illness/injuries may not receive adequate medication. After all, we've all seen cows and sheep limping round fields. Is that what we want to see horses doing?

You've raised two points, firstly;

I don't really understand the page which you quote, because as you rightly say, any owner can elect to take the horse out of the slaughter system by signing page IX (I think it is), but then if they sell the horse, I would think that gives the next owner the opportunity to sign the subsequent page, and with a subsequent date, which would I suspect override the previous owners wishes, and place the horse straight back in to the slaughter system. Is there anyone out there who can give a clear answer to this, rather than a possible opinion? Can anyone clearly explain the workings of two separate and contradictory pages?

Secondly; lame cattle and sheep are as entitled to the protection of the Law as are horses, and I can assure you that the Farm Teams from Trading Standards WILL visit those who keep consistently lame stock.

Alec.

 

[Holly Hocks]

You've raised two points, firstly;

I don't really understand the page which you quote, because as you rightly say, any owner can elect to take the horse out of the slaughter system by signing page IX (I think it is), but then if they sell the horse, I would think that gives the next owner the opportunity to sign the subsequent page, and with a subsequent date, which would I suspect override the previous owners wishes, and place the horse straight back in to the slaughter system. Is there anyone out there who can give a clear answer to this, rather than a possible opinion? Can anyone clearly explain the workings of two separate and contradictory pages?

Secondly; lame cattle and sheep are as entitled to the protection of the Law as are horses, and I can assure you that the Farm Teams from Trading Standards WILL visit those who keep consistently lame stock.

Alec.

Thanks Alec.
Yes the page I mean is the page you are talking about. I fail to see how the horse can be put back into the slaughter system as if it has been signed out of it it may have been given drugs which mean the horse cannot be used for slaughter. But I will try and find my passport and have a look (why can you never find these things when you want them!)

My query was more about if horses became a farm meat product and farmers farmed horses as they would sheep and cows. If a horse became injured, surely they wouldn't be treated appropriately because the drugs they are allowed would be limited. I would just hate the thought of horses being in pain because they were destined for the food chain.

 

[Toffee_monster]

There might be a good suggestion here, but if this did happen, how many people would actually eat horsemeat within the UK I wonder?

I would ! And i eat it whener i am in france, it is lean and as beautiful as fillet steak !

 

[Caledonia]

An issue I see is that if every horse has to have a passport, if someone decides not to fill in the page "not for slaughter", then the vets are unable to give the animal certain drugs and this in itself may cause a welfare issue in that illness/injuries may not receive adequate medication. After all, we've all seen cows and sheep limping round fields. Is that what we want to see horses doing?

Do you really believe that the horses such as those that were seized recently had any medication, or care? And given that the authorities had to euthanase so many, I'm guessing that limping round fields was the least of their welfare worries.

 

[bonny]

I think that all this talk about eating unwanted horses is fudging the issue which is that they are being bred in huge numbers in the first place. Finding something to do with the unwanted cannot be the answer, more will just be bred and the problem will continue. I see no evidence that people in the UK want to eat horses, I think if the demand was there then it would be filled already, food suppliers are not slow to supply anything if there is profit in it.

 

[Holly Hocks]

Do you really believe that the horses such as those that were seized recently had any medication, or care? And given that the authorities had to euthanase so many, I'm guessing that limping round fields was the least of their welfare worries.

no of course not - that is why my question was regarding whether if horses became actually farmed rather than just indiscriminately overbred and herded off the moors.

 

[Caledonia]

I think that all this talk about eating unwanted horses is fudging the issue which is that they are being bred in huge numbers in the first place. Finding something to do with the unwanted cannot be the answer, more will just be bred and the problem will continue. I see no evidence that people in the UK want to eat horses, I think if the demand was there then it would be filled already, food suppliers are not slow to supply anything if there is profit in it.

Sure that's the root of the problem, but what about those horses that need to be disposed of now? Those in foal for the next year, and the ongoing chain of reproduction in horses that are left to run with with mares and foals together? What about the horses that get older and people want to sell to get a new one that does their job better? What about those that people simply can't afford any more? Those that have an injury that means they can't be competitive, or ridden? People can't afford companions.

There are far too many horses in the UK, and it will take many years to try and regulate the numbers. In the interim, thousands of horses will suffer, either through neglect or being shipped abroad for slaughter, often with an ongoing trip to Italy after time in a holding farm.

Everything needs addressing. The suffering horses won't magically disappear because the idea of eating horsemeat is distasteful to some people here. There is however an export market for horsemeat, and it wouldn't be hard to convert some abattoirs to having a slaughter day for horses, pretty much how it works at Potters anyway.

Giving the unwanted horses value as a food will go a long way to helping their welfare.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

There would need to be a register for horses if the horse became accepted as a meat animal. And that can only be a good thing. The reason they (the dodgepots) get away with it just now is because there is NO obligatory system. It would, however mean ownership etc was far easier to prove. It might stop the indiscriminate breeding id every animal HAD to be registered, or face a whoppong fine and animals seized.

With a legitimate source for horsemeat in a registered abattoir, the backyard butchers would be way less necessary.

I really don't understand your negativity - with the apathy in your replies, nothing will change.

It is fine to sit here and say, we need a register of horses.......... OK, thismight work if everyone who owns a horse is willing to pay a nominal fee, say £25.00 for registering, but there is probably only one way to easily identify horses and that is the microchip, [though we know these can be removed if somebody really wants to].
So the owner needs to fork out another £75.00 for microchipping, plus £25.00 for the passport.

To be practical, how would it work with the feral ponies on the moor, I am just not sure........
In Ye Olden Days there used to be a dog licence, it cost 7/- and 6d! ie £5.00. I don't think anybody except responsible dog owners bought one, and the scheme was dropped....

Any sort of system is going to require EC and or UK parliamentary time, the existing charities are not even discussing this, hence HRH Anne's suggestion.
It is not negativity, it is just not the answer for the horses and ponies who are "in the system"

I don t think there is a single register for cattle or for sheep, as far as I am aware, meat traceability is done by tagging the ears and records being kept by the farmer, the tags are issued in batches to farmers, he has to record when each tag is used, and that record is kept by him.

 

[Caledonia]

It is fine to sit here and say, we need a register of horses.......... OK, thismight work if everyone who owns a horse is willing to pay a nominal fee, say £25.00 for registering, but there is probably only one way to easily identify horses and that is the microchip, [though we know these can be removed if somebody really wants to].
So the owner needs to fork out another £75.00 for microchipping, plus £25.00 for the passport.

To be practical, how would it work with the feral ponies on the moor, I am just not sure........
In Ye Olden Days there used to be a dog licence, it cost 7/- and 6d! ie £5.00. I don't think anybody except responsible dog owners bought one, and the scheme was dropped....

Any sort of system is going to require EC and or UK parliamentary time, the existing charities are not even discussing this, hence HRH Anne's suggestion.
It is not negativity, it is just not the answer for the horses and ponies who are "in the system"

I don t think there is a single register for cattle or for sheep, as far as I am aware, meat traceability is done by tagging the ears and records being kept by the farmer, the tags are issued in batches to farmers, he has to record when each tag is used, and that record is kept by him.

I am fully aware it's going to involve work, but quite frankly, if people who own a horse cannot afford to chip and passport them, they they should NOT own them. How will they pay a vet bill, or farrier? If done along the lines of the French system including an owners card additional to the passport then it also safeguards proof of ownership of their horse.

There is already a perfectly good database model in the Weatherbys system. As Weatherbys is a PIO for all horses now, then all it would take is more staff and computers to kickstart the process. And you are absolutely wrong that the charities are not discussing this - of course they are. Using the dog parallel won't work, as AFAIK nobody has yet mooted eating them here.

As far as the feral ponies go, then there will be a way of addressing that. They are all owned by people, so the onus is on them to identify and protect these ponies. Frankly, they've got away with neglect for years because of the laxity of the system. So many of these ponies are worth nothing because they are overstocked and inbred, or outbred to make nice colours that have deformed many of them, certainly in the case of the Dartmoor Hill ponies.

You seem determined to allow the status quo of misery to be maintained - how about putting some thought into a genuine solution, rather than nit-picking at the ideas of those who are genuinely trying to help horses.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Obviously I don't want to see ponies starving, I've just spent an arm and a leg rescuing one and finding a new home.
I am just being practical, the only way that particular pony was going to find a new home was if I bought him and re-homed him, and he can't be the only one, there was nowhere for him to go.
I have said before , there is no easy solution, I am not against meat eating or anything, I just don't see any sort of practical solution which can be set up this winter.

 

[Maesfen]

I don t think there is a single register for cattle or for sheep, as far as I am aware, meat traceability is done by tagging the ears and records being kept by the farmer, the tags are issued in batches to farmers, he has to record when each tag is used, and that record is kept by him.

For cattle there is indeed a database/register and woe betide you if you haven't applied for calf passports within 28 days of birth, you don't get second chances except in exceptional circumstances. From the day that calf is registered to the day it is finally slaughtered, that database will be kept up to date as by law they have to be notified within 3 days of any change of owner with huge fines if you don't comply. It's a shame there isn't the same for horses. Sheep also have to have 'known whereabouts' at all times, and each sheep should have an individual number plus flock number.
Until we can get horses reclassified as an agricultural animal it will always be at a disadvantage through lack of the regulations that protect other species of farm animal. Get that done and you might see abattoirs more willing to accept horses too.

 

[Dizzy socks]

Not read thread- but what will stop them being treated like cattle, where conditions are often very unsavory?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Not read thread- but what will stop them being treated like cattle, where conditions are often very unsavory?

I don't think conditions will be particularly unsavoury in UK cattle abattoirs, it is my understanding that a lot of work goes in to making the whole process calm and clean. I certainly have seen this in a modern chicken processing line.
It is many years since I went to Glasgow meat market, I was there when the Rabbi was doing his bit ............. that was not nice, but it was clean, and I suppose it was legal.
Most animals are handled quietly, there will always be exceptions.

Having said that, it is not something I would want for my pet, so should I want it for unknown animals? It is a dilemma. If the option is starve slowly or die quickly , then the latter option seems clear, unfortunately, there does not seem to be such a clear cut choice.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I am fully aware it's going to involve work, but quite frankly, if people who own a horse cannot afford to chip and passport them, they they should NOT own them. How will they pay a vet bill, or farrier?

Is this not the whole problem , people who allow their animals to starve are NOT responsible owners, they won't be calling a vet or a farrier.

 

[Dizzy socks]

I don't think conditions will be particularly unsavoury in UK cattle abattoirs, it is my understanding that a lot of work goes in to making the whole process calm and clean. I certainly have seen this in a modern chicken processing line.
It is many years since I went to Glasgow meat market, I was there when the Rabbi was doing his bit ............. that was not nice, but it was clean, and I suppose it was legal.
Most animals are handled quietly, there will always be exceptions.

Having said that, it is not something I would want for my pet, so should I want it for unknown animals? It is a dilemma. If the option is starve slowly or die quickly , then the latter option seems clear, unfortunately, there does not seem to be such a clear cut choice.

I don't mean the abattoirs - I mean simply in the housing. I think progress should be made to have cows treated more like horses - not the other way around.

How many cows do we see living in makeshift, crowded accommodation, which leaks, that are not let out or mucked out the whole winter. Is this what we want for our horses??

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

How many cows do we see living in makeshift, crowded accommodation, which leaks, that are not let out or mucked out the whole winter. Is this what we want for our horses??

A popular misconception. Deep litter has a purpose behind it. Deep litter, whilst going through the rotting down process gives off heat, and cattle in the warm will thrive where those in the cold, regardless of their food intake, will not. With the heat being given off by deep litter, so cattle are actually encouraged to lie down, and a resting animal will put on weight and prosper. Assuming that animals have somewhere warm and comparatively dry to lie down (and that includes horses) they'll come to no harm on deep litter.

All may not always be as it would seem!

Alec.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

A popular misconception. Deep litter has a purpose behind it. Deep litter, whilst going through the rotting down process gives off heat, and cattle in the warm will thrive where those in the cold, regardless of their food intake, will not. With the heat being given off by deep litter, so cattle are actually encouraged to lie down, and a resting animal will put on weight and prosper. Assuming that animals have somewhere warm and comparatively dry to lie down (and that includes horses) they'll come to no harm on deep litter.
omg Alec, don't you know you have just released whole generation of lazy idle so and so from keeping a clean bed for their pony
All may not always be as it would seem!

Alec.

OMG Alec, don't you know you have just released whole generation of lazy idle so and so's from giving pony a clean bed: "pony does not get mucked out ..... he is on deep litter"
Deep litter for cattle depends on management as with everything else and also on ventilation, coop a load of young calves in nice warm building and they will go down with pneumonia at the drop of a hat

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

When I suggested to a local farmer that he could have horses on his farmland over winter, he pointed out to me that the cattle were housed in winter to keep them clean, and to keep the fields in good condition. They are a lot better off welfare wise than 40 years ago when all milk cows were kept tied up by the neck seven months of the year. Not saying that things can't be improved, but cattle sheds do allow them to wander around and eat as much as they like.