Priorities - Mare Owners .v. Stallion Owners

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Thefuture

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Following on from the recent Stallion grading comments, some studbooks/stallion owners put the ability of a stallion to jump - whether loose or under saddle higher than conformation - only three stallions licenced with the AES last week and two were 3yo which showed jumping ability loose. The judges did not see these horses ridden so have no idea whether they are even trainable.

As a mare owner I actually would rather the higher influence be on correctness of conformation and free from possible hereditory dieseases so we are breeding for long term soundness and was wondering what other mare owners think about this, or are the majority now breeding for a big flashy jump and movement.

If this is not the case is now not a good time to have your say.
 
I agree with you about correctness of conformation and hereditory dieseases, but as I breed showjump horses a big flashy jump is quite important to! Do these 3yo have to go back for a ridden assesment to check for trainability? Which is something I also value quite highly.
 
The basics of conformation (without that you shouldn't even look at it for breeding purposes) and a good temperament should come first above all things regardless of what you are trying to breed surely although I agree, an aptitude for the chosen sport is a great advantage? At the same time, horses aren't square pegs to fit into round holes, they might not excel at the chosen sport but be fabulous at another; they shouldn't be put in a cubby hole and not allowed to move out; they are all individuals and should be treated as such which is perhaps the point that some people are missing.
Look at how many eventers and showjumpers have come either from the racetrack or before they even got on to one. You can bet that unless the stallion or mare used were competition horses themselves or NH performers, they would not have been seen jumping at all; you'd get a stand up for conformation and a walk and trot in hand, very rare to be able to see more than that but it hasn't stopped good performers coming through; look at Miner's Lamp and I'm sure there are many more but I can't think of them this early!
The horse below was bred for racing from an English & Irish Derby winner with a flat bred mare from a winning family, both of which had outstanding conformation and temperaments, so eventing was the last thing on the co-breeder's minds when he went to the sales but he was luckily bought by an expert in this field as a yearling, nurtured and this is the result four years later. I'm rather proud of him!
Stan2.jpg


What I'm trying to say is look at the horses in front of you, don't just be blinded by a scrap of paper. That bit of paper is not going to make the youngster produced, jump a foot higher, run faster or anything else, it is only a guide, not set in stone. Use your own eyes and learn what works.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Following on from the recent Stallion grading comments, some studbooks/stallion owners put the ability of a stallion to jump - whether loose or under saddle higher than conformation - only three stallions licenced with the AES last week and two were 3yo which showed jumping ability loose. The judges did not see these horses ridden so have no idea whether they are even trainable.

As a mare owner I actually would rather the higher influence be on correctness of conformation and free from possible hereditory dieseases so we are breeding for long term soundness and was wondering what other mare owners think about this, or are the majority now breeding for a big flashy jump and movement.

If this is not the case is now not a good time to have your say.

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Nearly all major studbooks grade stallions at the age of 2.5-3 years old. None are under saddle and trainability cannot be sustained at that age. However, the major Studbooks put great emphasis on conformation, movement and/or jump.

The judges are also selected for their years of experience and the majority of these horses go through performance testing where they can be assessed for trainability and stable manners etc.


If a stallion has bad conformation then in my mind it should be gelded because it could pass on poor conformation to its offspring, regardless of whether it is a good dressage or jumping horse (lets face it there are many good dressage and jumping sires out there with perfectly good conformation along with their abilities, so why pass lessor quality stallions?). The other emphasis put on stallions is that of its breeding, and more so on the mother lines, whether the mother, grandmother or great grandmother have either been sporthorses or produced sporthorses, therefore the hereditary disposition of the stallion breeding performance horses is hopefully higher.
 
It would have to be conformation every time . A good jump may be important but could that horse stay sound to compete for the long term would be more important . Both mare and stallion should be conformationally sound but especially a stallion as they have the potential to cause alot of damage as they put it about so much!!
 
When I was looking for my first stallion choice, I had to make do with video as although he was owned by the stud I keep my mares at, he was on lease to a German stud at the time. My main criteria was watching all of his 2 1/2 year old grading videos I could get my hands on. Walk up, trot, canter etc, all the groundwork and paces first.

I knew his temperament was good and more importantly too I had seen some of the foals he was already producing in person. Conformation is most important for me as is temperament. Quality of offspring is useful to see if they already have foals on the ground as then you can try to judge what foals are being produced with different types of mare (I really wish people would put a photo of their mare too when showing the foals they have bred as it helps others to choose too).

The fact that he could also jump was great but to me it showed me more that he was happy doing what he did, again, coming back to temperament and willingness to perform. As a dressage sire though, it was the least important thing I needed.

When looking for a showjumping stallion for my other mare, yes I would like to see they can jump and make a good shape etc, but still, conformation etc first. No point breeding a horse who has a twisted hoof who can jump a fantastic height, but only the once.
 
Again, from the mare owners pov - one of the first things that I would be considering when looking at any stallion is what I particular want to build on/correct in my own mare, which I guess we all do.

Conformation and temperament/trainability are the fundamental issues I would want to get right in my choice of stallion. I would look for athleticism, good movement through the shoulder, suppleness and engagement through the hocks -and breeding for eventing, the ability to cover the ground is really important. (An athletic, stretch from the shoulder walk being key) We recently went to see a young stallion who is beginning his career in eventing, and I later had the opportunity to see his sire in Ireland. Both extremely nice horses BUT on the basis of a very slightly short/choppy movement in front, I would not choose the youngster for my mare.

Jump - yes, obviously important - BUT I would be much less impressed by a very "flashy" jump (an example would be a very much feted young Zangersheide stallion who has the most stunning jump, clearing obstacles with enormous space to spare - but, of course, spends a lot of time in the air. Less useful to me as an eventer breeder, perhaps, than something which is neat, athletic and makes a nice shape but doesn't necessarily get the crowd gasping and applauding!)

Absolutely agree with all the points also made above - beyond a certain point its "gut feel" - what you think will make the best combination with your mare(s), and also being able to see, where possible, the stallion's offspring out of different mares. Is he an "improving" stallion if used on the average mare?

So, back to your original questions - flashy jumping and movement? May be eye-catching, but will it produce the goods? Not the best indicator, in my opinion!!!
 
the 3 t's, type, temperament and talent.
Type/Conformation is pretty much there as a 2 yr old? Can improve a bit with strengthening?
Temperament, I never mind a stallion being a bit "lary" as long as he Improves in his manners and isn't dangerous to me or others!
Talent, they have to also have. There are too many poor stallions around. Not all four year old stallions are ready to be out there doing it, but a five year old stallion should have some performance record that is showing his potential in whichever discipline.

Re a small conformation fault, eg: a bit of a short neck, a temporary license allows you to see whether he throws this to his foals...........
 
As a breeder in a very small way, breeding a replacement horse for myself temperament is most important followed by conformation. Really flash paces or jump in the offspring is a bonus not what I am after, too good and the result is wasted on my hunter/allrounder.

I think many smaller breeders are aiming for the general riding horse market and not for sporting superstars and they must be rideable and have longevity.
 
For us the key points would be:

Conformation
Temperament
Trainability

With good conformation you can have some assurance that the horse wll stay sound through during competing.

If they have the correct temperament then you should be able to do anything with the horse.

Trainability, we have two levels for this, the first is in hand training and then as a late 2yo /3/4yo we move this to under saddle (the timing depends on the size and dvelopment of the horse - the bigger they are the sooner we do it)

combine all three of the above and you should be able to get a good horse to do anything. Ok we have to consider natural ability and type for eventing and SJ etc, to get to the higest levels but the main 3 are key. We know of a mare who has a stunning jumping ability but is impossible to train!
 
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