Pro hunting lobby spending spree

[Burnerbee]

If my social media algorithm is anything to go by, the pro hunters are really chucking their money and weight at the press since the announcement re the trail hunting ban . (My algorithm clearly sees ‘horse’ and ‘outdoorsy stuff’ and decides I’m pro hunting - incorrect assumption!).

There’s clearly a lot of money out there, all schmoozing journalists to tell us how sad the little old country folk will be, and how the evil leftie government are destroying the countryside - what a load of buzzcocks.

 

[SEL]

There's a lot of jobs at risk. Ironically the kind of working class jobs the labour party once stood for - except these are countryside jobs and most labour politicians seem to struggle to see the countryside as anything other than a building site these days.

I'm no fan of hunting, but banning that whilst allowing ritual slaughter of animals for meat means it is absolutely not being proposed for welfare reasons.

The trail hunts haven't done themselves any favours ignoring the laws but tying up time debating a ban in this parliament - when there is so much else going on - is a waste of time & money.

 

[U.N.Owen]

The 'ritual slaughter for meat' whataboutism is always an interesting one for me. It's such a dog whistle and strays close to racism. The ritual slaughter is no worse than what happens in "normal" slaughter but seems to have become the thing to say to support hunting? If, as you say, it was truly for animal welfare then they should ban ALL slaughter, because I doubt the CO2 gassed pigs are having a happier death than the ritually killed non-stunned animals.

 

[Clodagh]

And you think the anti hunting lobby don’t?
Where hunting has fallen down (apart from the obvious!) is just keeping quiet. But it works for the royal family.

 

[fredflop]

If my social media algorithm is anything to go by, the pro hunters are really chucking their money and weight at the press since the announcement re the trail hunting ban . (My algorithm clearly sees ‘horse’ and ‘outdoorsy stuff’ and decides I’m pro hunting - incorrect assumption!).

There’s clearly a lot of money out there, all schmoozing journalists to tell us how sad the little old country folk will be, and how the evil leftie government are destroying the countryside - what a load of buzzcocks.

Clearly you don’t support it… your post reads like a sab hit report

 

[Tiddlypom]

Who’d have thought that foxhunting with packs of hounds is already illegal .

Lots of whataboutery that is missing the point that it is the current widespread law breaking by the so called trail hunts who never stopped hunting foxes that is to be banned. If you think that ignoring widespread law breaking is ok then carry on.

The hunts are also showing themselves up by going on about the ‘poor hounds who will be shot’. That’ll be down to the hunts themselves shooting them as they cba to keep the hounds they bred on into retirement. The hounds are disposable articles of equipment to be tossed aside.

 

[greasedweasel]

The 'ritual slaughter for meat' whataboutism is always an interesting one for me. It's such a dog whistle and strays close to racism. The ritual slaughter is no worse than what happens in "normal" slaughter but seems to have become the thing to say to support hunting? If, as you say, it was truly for animal welfare then they should ban ALL slaughter, because I doubt the CO2 gassed pigs are having a happier death than the ritually killed non-stunned animals.

I couldn’t agree with this more, the two are not linked at all.

Can also add in all the hand wringing about hounds being shot… yes, as they are on a regular basis. There were still puppies being bred despite the writing on the wall.

I used to hunt but I’m definitely anti now. They do nothing to help themselves.

 

[greasedweasel]

Cross post Tiddlypom!

 

[Sandstone1]

If hunts had stuck to the law they would not be facing this now. After all they have had over 20 years! Come on, we all know that most trail hunts are out trying to hunt and kill foxes. Its no secret, If it really were about the thrill of the chase then they could and should have stuck to trail hunting. Using fox scent to lay trails if they even bother to lay a trail.... The use of terrier men, cub hunting. Riders standing on point slapping saddles..... Why? Trying to keep the trail in a wood etc so hounds can chase them???
Come on be honest its all been a farce and everyone knows it. There has been more than enough time to scale down hound breeding, train hounds to trail hunt properly etc etc. Jobs? if they had stuck to the law trail hunting would not be being band so jobs would not be under threat. Times have changed, animal welfare has moved on and the vast majority of people are against hunting. Its not a countryside against town issue. Its a outdated and cruel practice and I include the hounds, horses and the livestock that get upset in that cruelty.
It will be banned and its time it was.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Who’d have thought that foxhunting with packs of hounds is already illegal .

Lots of whataboutery that is missing the point that it is the current widespread law breaking by the so called trail hunts who never stopped hunting foxes that is to be banned. If you think that ignoring widespread law breaking is ok then carry on.

The hunts are also showing themselves up by going on about the ‘poor hounds who will be shot’. That’ll be down to the hunts themselves shooting them as they cba to keep the hounds they bred on into retirement. The hounds are disposable articles of equipment to be tossed aside.

What do you propose they do with the hounds who are left with no job to do? They can't be split up and sent individually to pet homes.
Who do you think will pay to keep them in the manner to which they are accustomed? The Hunt members pay for the Hunt's day to day expenses, including the Huntsman's salary.
There will be no Hunt members, unless changes are made.
The Huntsman won't be getting a salary, will most likely lose his home (most are tied cottages) and will be jobless before the age that he had planned to retire.
Of course Hunts should always follow the law but much of what I have read about what people dislike isn't to do with animal welfare more like class warfare, otherwise why would so many people mention traditional Hunt dress in their invective?

 

[lizziebell]

Whilst I agree that halal/ kosher slaughter should be looked at, it’s a separate issue and is not relevant to the trail hunting debate. If the pro-hunt want their opinions taken seriously then they need to show some solid arguments to protect trail hunting, not trying to deflect (I’ve also seen deflecting to cats killing wildlife and cars killing foxes) and not trying to paint the “oh woe is me”. Many are even shooting themselves in the foot by supporting hunting as a method to control foxes - seemingly forgetting that form of control has been illegal for 20 years and therefore enforcing the trail hunt smokescreen.

What I haven’t seen from any supporters of trail hunting is any proactivity to change (or put forward proposals of change) in order to protect their sport. They’ve had over 20 years to get their house in order! It’s not difficult - drag and clean boot hunts manage their sport without disrupting communities, trespassing, distressing livestock/ wildlife and killing foxes. Trail hunting should have learnt from them a long time ago.

 

[Nocturnal]

I feel that if this was really about animal welfare there would be more concern about the fact that fox populations have declined since the ban, and efforts put in to coming up with a better solution than just shooting foxes.

 

[Marshpiper]

What do you propose they do with the hounds who are left with no job to do? They can't be split up and sent individually to pet homes.
Who do you think will pay to keep them in the manner to which they are accustomed? The Hunt members pay for the Hunt's day to day expenses, including the Huntsman's salary.
There will be no Hunt members, unless changes are made.
The Huntsman won't be getting a salary, will most likely lose his home (most are tied cottages) and will be jobless before the age that he had planned to retire.
Of course Hunts should always follow the law but much of what I have read about what people dislike isn't to do with animal welfare more like class warfare, otherwise why would so many people mention traditional Hunt dress in their invective?

Well said….

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I feel that if this was really about animal welfare there would be more concern about the fact that fox populations have declined since the ban, and efforts put in to coming up with a better solution than just shooting foxes.

And a lot more concern for urban foxes.

 

[criso]

otherwise why would so many people mention traditional Hunt dress in their invective?

Because seeing the spectacle of people dressing up and having a big day out for the purpose of killing a fox seems worse than an animal being killed quietly in a back room. It may not ultimately make any difference to the animal but making it fun seems distateful.

I have hunted as child but would only follow a trail now and the local hunts openly ignore the ban so so I don't.

 

[I'm Dun]

ITS NOT BEING BANNED!! I cant take much more of this nonsense. All thats being banned is following a trail of animal scent, ie fox urine. So if foxhound packs arent hunting foxes then there should be no issue.

I just dont get why people see a headline and run with it. Why dont people read up on what is being proposed and why?

 

[Burnerbee]

Clearly you don’t support it… your post reads like a sab hit report

No I absolutely do not support hunting
- just to be extremely clear. I grew up being told it was all part of country life, but then I realised it’s barbaric. I’m not a sab but I could easily be tempted. NB. I don’t want anyone to lose their income but if cash in hand for filling in holes is your income, I’m not going to cry over you.

 

[lizziebell]

ITS NOT BEING BANNED!! I cant take much more of this nonsense. All thats being banned is following a trail of animal scent, ie fox urine. So if foxhound packs arent hunting foxes then there should be no issue.

I just dont get why people see a headline and run with it. Why dont people read up on what is being proposed and why?

Because the majority of “trail hunt” supporters don’t understand that the hunt are using an animal based scent and it appears the BHSA et al. are too arrogant to change their scent and methods.

 

[I'm Dun]

I was pro hunting, have family who were MFH etc. But since the ban hunting has changed and the behaviour of hunts is utterly appalling, moving down people, killing pets, trespassing, hounds rioting etc, etc, etc. And now all this weeping and wailing as a loophole is being closed to mean they have to obey the law means I've gone firmly to the other side.

But mainly its people annoying me. I dont think I have seen a single person say or post about it just being following animal scent, aka fox urine being banned. But my god have I seen an awful lot about halal, cats and foxes being run over.

 

[DabDab]

If they want to come down harder on illegal fox hunting then why not just do that? Why ban trail hunting? Wild idea, they could even rewrite the existing law to make it easier to follow and enforce.

I don't think it's some leftist plot, not even really classism...I think it is the general inclination of neoliberal politics to have a strong preference for cities and that tips over into a an underlying dislike and mistrust of anything rural/countryside/tradition. City-living populations are well-ordered, well-understood, system-compliant and dependent. Whereas in the countryside there is a level of chaos, self-sufficiency and tradition that makes neo-liberal die hards feel intrinsically uncomfortable.

I don't hunt btw, and never have. I did used to go out for the odd day drag or bloodhounds, but have been out of reasonable distance for nearest of either for a lot of years.

 

[DabDab]

ITS NOT BEING BANNED!! I cant take much more of this nonsense. All thats being banned is following a trail of animal scent, ie fox urine. So if foxhound packs arent hunting foxes then there should be no issue.

I just dont get why people see a headline and run with it. Why dont people read up on what is being proposed and why?

Because the law hasn't been written yet, so it is unknown what it will actually contain. So far a strategy has been released with consultation to follow, and the relevent section in that strategy simply talks about ending trail hunting.

Animal welfare strategy for England

www.gov.uk

 

[Orangehorse]

If they want to come down harder on illegal fox hunting then why not just do that? Why ban trail hunting? Wild idea, they could even rewrite the existing law to make it easier to follow and enforce.

I don't think it's some leftist plot, not even really classism...I think it is the general inclination of neoliberal politics to have a strong preference for cities and that tips over into a an underlying dislike and mistrust of anything rural/countryside/tradition. City-living populations are well-ordered, well-understood, system-compliant and dependent. Whereas in the countryside there is a level of chaos, self-sufficiency and tradition that makes neo-liberal die hards feel intrinsically uncomfortable.

I don't hunt btw, and never have. I did used to go out for the odd day drag or bloodhounds, but have been out of reasonable distance for nearest of either for a lot of years.

I totally agree with this. There is a lot of piffle talked by both the trail hunters and those who want it banned. I see videos of foxes running around when the hounds ae in the area, but they live in the woods, they would be running around if a pack of hounds arrived on the scene, it doesn't mean they are being hunted. And I guess that those drone films are illegal anyway.

I agree that hunts could be a lot more pro=active about their trail laying, I suggest that they ask some sabs to lay the trail, then they could also continue to enjoy their weekly hunts.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Pas, I have hunted a lot pre ban (5 foxhound packs, 2 harriers, 0 drag) , and am still of the opinion that the countryside in general and the fox population in particular were better managed pre ban.

I am, however, very very against people deciding to break the law so am opposed to fox hunting post ban.

The so called trail hunts had a reprieve with the Hunting Act and have completely blown it.

What do you propose they do with the hounds who are left with no job to do? They can't be split up and sent individually to pet homes.
Who do you think will pay to keep them in the manner to which they are accustomed? The Hunt members pay for the Hunt's day to day expenses, including the Huntsman's salary.
There will be no Hunt members, unless changes are made.

The same people who are paying for their upkeep now. Just put hounds on summer regime and let them die of old age naturally.

It’s the law breaking hunts who have been enabled by the BHSA who have done this.

ETA

ITS NOT BEING BANNED!! I cant take much more of this nonsense. All thats being banned is following a trail of animal scent, ie fox urine. So if foxhound packs arent hunting foxes then there should be no issue.

We don’t know what form the law will take yet, it might range more widely than the long overdue banning of following an animal scent. Hence the ongoing worry for the drag and bloodhound packs.

 

[meleeka]

I couldn’t agree with this more, the two are not linked at all.

Can also add in all the hand wringing about hounds being shot… yes, as they are on a regular basis. There were still puppies being bred despite the writing on the wall.

I used to hunt but I’m definitely anti now. They do nothing to help themselves.

All those hounds will be shot at some point anyway, so I don't see that as a reason to oppose a ban.

I agree, hunts have nobody to blame
but themselves. If they didnt cause so much upset and flout the law, they wouldn't be in the spotlight at all.

Can someone clarify how they get the fox scent? I'm imagining a fox trapped and kept in a shed for weeks, causing misery and suffering, but not sure how correct that is.

 

[mariew]

Out of curiosity, as I am not a dog person if they ban dogs following an animal scent does this affect any other dog training or is it purely trail hunting?

 

[palo1]

All those hounds will be shot at some point anyway, so I don't see that as a reason to oppose a ban.

I agree, hunts have nobody to blame
but themselves. If they didnt cause so much upset and flout the law, they wouldn't be in the spotlight at all.

Can someone clarify how they get the fox scent? I'm imagining a fox trapped and kept in a shed for weeks, causing misery and suffering, but not sure how correct that is.

Those that still use fox scent will usually use a dead, shot fox carcase in water or oil I think. I don't think any UK hunt will be purchasing any kind of fox scent, though apparently that is popular with keen gardeners as a cat deterrent and can be purchased from Amazon. Most people I know think that the methods for acquiring fox urine are utterly abhorrent. That should certainly be banned!

 

[Fred66]

Whilst I agree that halal/ kosher slaughter should be looked at, it’s a separate issue and is not relevant to the trail hunting debate. If the pro-hunt want their opinions taken seriously then they need to show some solid arguments to protect trail hunting, not trying to deflect (I’ve also seen deflecting to cats killing wildlife and cars killing foxes) and not trying to paint the “oh woe is me”. Many are even shooting themselves in the foot by supporting hunting as a method to control foxes - seemingly forgetting that form of control has been illegal for 20 years and therefore enforcing the trail hunt smokescreen.

What I haven’t seen from any supporters of trail hunting is any proactivity to change (or put forward proposals of change) in order to protect their sport. They’ve had over 20 years to get their house in order! It’s not difficult - drag and clean boot hunts manage their sport without disrupting communities, trespassing, distressing livestock/ wildlife and killing foxes. Trail hunting should have learnt from them a long time ago.

Have you read the outline of what is to be looked ? It does mention trail hunting but also discusses CO2 of pigs.
The bill is put forward as being about animal welfare, so the question as to why halal / kosher slaughter is not being looked at is totally valid.

 

[DabDab]

Out of curiosity, as I am not a dog person if they ban dogs following an animal scent does this affect any other dog training or is it purely trail hunting?

Nobody knows. Depends how they word it. They could draw lines based on the scent used, the number of dogs and the scent, the type of dogs used, whether dogs are loose or leaded. There is an awful lot of sport/activities with dogs that involve (in some way), using a dog to follow a scent trail, so it is going to involve a fair amount of linguistic gymnastics to target the one activity that they say they are trying to target without affecting others.

 

[palo1]

Out of curiosity, as I am not a dog person if they ban dogs following an animal scent does this affect any other dog training or is it purely trail hunting?

It may well affect many other people but the law has not yet been drafted so it's not really possible to say. It 'could' criminalize ordinary dog owners in some situations that may be accidental/poor control etc. The current wildlife and animal cruelty legislation probably cover most of those things but it might have an impact on shooting etc. If my terrier scents a fox or other creature at home and heads after it, currently that is not a criminal offence but it could become one.

My dog will recall well but many, many dogs won't. Chasing squirrels in the park - an apparantly time honoured town-dog activity would become illegal for example. It may already be illegal under wildlife and animal cruelty laws tbh.

 

[SEL]

Have you read the outline of what is to be looked ? It does mention trail hunting but also discusses CO2 of pigs.
The bill is put forward as being about animal welfare, so the question as to why halal / kosher slaughter is not being looked at is totally valid.

That's my view - it's a welfare bill not solely looking at hunting. I think the stuff on dogs harassing livestock seems well written and thought through, the stuff on puppy farms a bit odd as there is already robust legislation (a friend is a professional breeder) but it isn't enforced. I feel the same about hunting - tidy up the weak bits of the existing legislation and tell the trail hunts to get their act together. The drag hunts document their route in advance so no reason trail cannot follow suit.

Debating methods of slaughter is NOT racism. The whole industry should be looked at from a welfare perspective.