Pro hunting lobby spending spree

I'm Dun said:
But its all the other stuff as well, the pets killed, the hounds out of control, the abuse of animals by hunt staff/members outside of hunting. Its truly awful behaviour. And all that stuff about the Warwickshire and the secret pact just made the general public even more convinced it was all a cover up so posh people could kill animals for fun.
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And hunts just don't seem to appreciate how entitled they appear to be to many ordinary people, which is why they won't be mourned in - particularly - more populated areas of the countryside where 'rural community' can mean many things. I saw a sab video from the Grafton the other day: a sab vehicle was overtaking parked hunt supporter cars and was blocked by hunt supporters standing in the road, who didn't move or even look at the car when it stopped, nor for a small beep of the horn. Behind the sabs' car was an undercover police car, however, and the alacrity with which they moved when the twos were turned on was hilarious. The supporters might have assumed or known the sabs' car was a sabs' car, but they may not have done, and I say that because it reminded me of a day several years back when I went to our field twice in different cars and ran into the hunt twice. When I was in my mum's car, a boring old Jazz, I was held up for an annoying amount of time. In my Freelander, no trouble - horses were moved onto the verge for me. Clearly they thought the latter me was one of them. It just makes you wonder what they think of others.
 
I'm Dun said:
LACS data which I've fact checked as I do not trust them at all

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The BHSA says less than 50 successful prosecutions against hunts, but another report has successful convictions being at 2% for wildlife crime across the board, which means LACS probably arent that far off. There are a lot of repeat offenders clearly, but thats still a lot of hunts breaking the law. I think there are around 170 packs in the UK, but not sure if thats a current up to date figure as theres been a fair few disbanded. But percentage wise, thats a lot of convictions against a tiny percentage of the population.

But its all the other stuff as well, the pets killed, the hounds out of control, the abuse of animals by hunt staff/members outside of hunting. Its truly awful behaviour. And all that stuff about the Warwickshire and the secret pact just made the general public even more convinced it was all a cover up so posh people could kill animals for fun.
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Yes, the wildlife crime element pushes the number of convictions up but that isn't necessarily related to trail hunting. There have been some vile hunting related incidents in those convictions and the law should meet those perpetrators very squarely and they should be banned from having any association with hunting ever again in my view.
 
palo1 said:
I think the ministry of justice figures show that Trail Hunting offences are very few but are often conflated with hunting offences which includes quite a wide variety of things.
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Even the offences may not represent the true picture, it's just the ones that are caught and are likely to result in a successful prosecution.

I didn't base my decision not to hunt on the handful of prosecutions locally but on the people (pro hunting) who went out with them and confirmed that they were hunting foxes.
 
criso said:
Even the offences may not represent the true picture, it's just the ones that are caught and are likely to result in a successful prosecution.

I didn't base my decision not to hunt on the handful of prosecutions locally but on the people (pro hunting) who went out with them and confirmed that they were hunting foxes.
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Yes, I understand this on a local level completely but policy has to be based on facts which I appreciate don't always feel sufficient to the issue.
 
I’m Dun, would you clarify the fox road death figures for me please, that seems to me to be low, where I live, in a very rural hilly part of Northern Ireland, I have seen today, for example two foxes dead on one of our A roads….I have seen more dead foxes on the roads in the last years….
 
Tiddlypom said:
Pas,



The same people who are paying for their upkeep now. Just put hounds on summer regime and let them die of old age naturally.
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Why would they?
And if they did the pack would still need to be exercised. Do you think the Sabs would be happy with that?


And how many dogs do you think die of old age naturally?
In all my 70 yrs of keeping multiple dogs, I've only ever had ONE die naturally. I came down one morning to find her cold, curled up on the sofa. The others have all had vet assistance.
 
Sandstone1 said:
But, they have had 20 years to sort this.... Why continue to breed pups that wont have a job? Hunts shoot many hounds anyway so thats nothing new. Many people get made redundant from many industries. Its nothing to do with class, its welfare and it will happen.
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Because trail hunting has been perfectly legal up to now.

I have no issue with hunts shooting hounds, it wasn't me who suggested letting hounds live out their natural lives
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
Because trail hunting has been perfectly legal up to now.

I have no issue with hunts shooting hounds, it wasn't me who suggested letting hounds live out their natural lives
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I cannot imagine hound keepers just shooting their hounds; all those years of breeding and carefully developed bloodlines...it is actually unimaginable. Those hounds will need exercise, care, feed etc. The Ross Harriers, with whom I am familiar have done everything they can to safeguard their rare hounds future and are entirely legal. Do not think that sabs/antis will be happy to see just the loopholes closed and that would not impact as many hunts as antis like to think - LACS and co want to see the end of all hounds I think, whether drag, trail or bloodhound.
 
lizziebell said:
Yes I have, and as stated I believe halal/ kosher is something that needs addressing. It is valid in terms of the welfare act, but it’s not a valid argument for retaining trail hunting, which is what the pro-hunts are deflecting to.
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When looking at any issue then best practice is to breakdown the issue into smaller chunks and apply Pareto analysis to reduce the problem. So when looking at animal welfare then the priority should be the greatest cause of suffering being the priority. Therefore addressing welfare issues in abattoirs should be of higher priority.

Additionally surely any ban should be evidence based and not based upon hearsay?
 
Burnerbee said:
If my social media algorithm is anything to go by, the pro hunters are really chucking their money and weight at the press since the announcement re the trail hunting
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They actually don’t need to spend a lot of money, it is a contentious issue so the posts get a lot of comments which push them to the top of people’s news feed.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
Because trail hunting has been perfectly legal up to now.

I have no issue with hunts shooting hounds, it wasn't me who suggested letting hounds live out their natural lives
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Yes, TRAIL hunting has been legal up to now but TRAIL hunting has not been whats been happening has it? Many hunts have been simply hunting foxes. We all know it. Now due to the behaviour of these hunts TRAIL hunting will be banned. Whos fault is that? I do not know the timescales this will take but hunts have been breeding pups up to now, anyone with common sense would have seen this happening and stopped the breeding of hounds but.... You can not blame anyone for that except the hunts. What happens now to hounds that get old, injured, too slow or just do not want to hunt? If they are lucky whatever form the ban takes it will allow time for plans to made for hounds but in my opinion the way hounds are kept is not that nice a life for them anyway.
 
Sandstone1 said:
Yes, TRAIL hunting has been legal up to now but TRAIL hunting has not been whats been happening has it? Many hunts have been simply hunting foxes. We all know it. Now due to the behaviour of these hunts TRAIL hunting will be banned. Whos fault is that? I do not know the timescales this will take but hunts have been breeding pups up to now, anyone with common sense would have seen this happening and stopped the breeding of hounds but.... You can not blame anyone for that except the hunts. What happens now to hounds that get old, injured, too slow or just do not want to hunt? If they are lucky whatever form the ban takes it will allow time for plans to made for hounds but in my opinion the way hounds are kept is not that nice a life for them anyway.
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I disagree - trail hounds can learn to follow an alternative scent and if that is what is required by any new law, that is what some/many hunts will do. many hunts already do this in any case. If all that changes is the requirement to use a non animal based scent, it will not be a huge problem logistically for many- even if it is politically and culturally. Some hunts may choose to disband, hounds may be drafted to other packs and some older hounds or tricky ones that cannot find a home that can really work for them may be euthanized. That isn't a welfare issue. Hounds really are unlike other dogs - they are sensitive and very dependent on their pack for a happy, confident life. they are bred to live and work as a pack so are very different in that sense to many domestic dogs. A well cared for pack of hounds actually have a really good, pretty natural life and many, many of them are joyful.

What I fear is that hunts following a non animal based scent will continue to be harassed by sabs, who will also continue to flood SM and the local police with spurious 'reports' of illegal hunting. In what other sphere of life is that acceptable? Vigilantes outside pubs and clubs, following people home in case they are over the limit or have been using recreational drugs? Anti-capitalist protesters abusing shoppers on the high street, preventing entry to Primark - masked and dressed in para-military clothing? Animal rights activists intimidating supermarket shoppers? We already have abusive, intimidating racists abusing people who have every right and legal permission to be here - how much further do we want to develop a culture of opinion based intimidation? Think about the values and kind of society we want!
 
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Sandstone1 said:
Yes, TRAIL hunting has been legal up to now but TRAIL hunting has not been whats been happening has it? Many hunts have been simply hunting foxes. We all know it. Now due to the behaviour of these hunts TRAIL hunting will be banned. Whos fault is that? I do not know the timescales this will take but hunts have been breeding pups up to now, anyone with common sense would have seen this happening and stopped the breeding of hounds but.... You can not blame anyone for that except the hunts. What happens now to hounds that get old, injured, too slow or just do not want to hunt? If they are lucky whatever form the ban takes it will allow time for plans to made for hounds but in my opinion the way hounds are kept is not that nice a life for them anyway.
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How many hound packs have you actually got to know?

Ime all dogs live more happily in groups of their own kind. Life for hounds can be just about perfect. If most of us hear about horses living solitary lives, we object that they don't have the 5 Freedoms and yet you don't want hounds to live in well-fed packs, with regular exercise.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
How many hound packs have you actually got to know?

Ime all dogs live more happily in groups of their own kind. Life for hounds can be just about perfect. If most of us hear about horses living solitary lives, we object that they don't have the 5 Freedoms and yet you don't want hounds to live in well-fed packs, with regular exercise.
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There are some bad hunt kennels, like there are many bad pet homes. Hunt kennels are at least licensed and inspected. I strongly doubt Sandstone has ever been round a kennels. I have spent a lot of time in them and hounds always seem to be living their best life.
 
palo1 said:
I disagree - trail hounds can learn to follow an alternative scent and if that is what is required by any new law, that is what some/many hunts will do. many hunts already do this in any case.
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But that's not what the hunts are saying all over the news and social media. They are talking about not just this generation but the entire line being lost as they are only bred to hunt foxes and can't possibly be trained to follow a different line.

I was never convinced by the argument as the owner of the yard I was on as a child, puppy walked hounds for the local fox pack and they seemed very good at chasing and killing all sorts of animals. They lost more chickens when a hound got out than the fox ever managed.
 
Clodagh said:
There are some bad hunt kennels, like there are many bad pet homes. Hunt kennels are at least licensed and inspected. I strongly doubt Sandstone has ever been round a kennels. I have spent a lot of time in them and hounds always seem to be living their best life.
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I'm not sure how someone who has never been to a Hunt kennels can criticise the way the hounds are kept. They certainly can't comment knowledgeably.
 
criso said:
But that's not what the hunts are saying all over the news and social media. They are talking about not just this generation but the entire line being lost as they are only bred to hunt foxes and can't possibly be trained to follow a different line.

I was never convinced by the argument as the owner of the yard I was on as a child, puppy walked hounds for the local fox pack and they seemed very good at chasing and killing all sorts of animals. They lost more chickens when a hound got out than the fox ever managed.
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I think that the issue is that hunters do not want hounds to lose the unique ability to track natural scent which is far trickier than the alternatives. Many foxhounds and harriers have already adapted but there is absolutely a loss of something in that adaptation. For hound keepers much is at stake with the loss of natural scent - not just scenting but many variations of hound speaking, their voice and ways of working as a pack and more individual traits. It feels massive in honesty but logistically adaptation is possible. I do think for !many hunters and hound keepers, adaptation feels impossible to imagine because of how closely the breeding of hounds has been tied to natural quarry scent. I guess it is like deliberately breeding vegetarian lions for some folk...
 
criso said:
I was never convinced by the argument as the owner of the yard I was on as a child, puppy walked hounds for the local fox pack and they seemed very good at chasing and killing all sorts of animals. They lost more chickens when a hound got out than the fox ever managed.
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I’m more astounded they were given more than one chance (the walker, not the puppies). Mine always went back steady to everything. Except squirrels.
 
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palo1 said:
I disagree - trail hounds can learn to follow an alternative scent and if that is what is required by any new law, that is what some/many hunts will do. many hunts already do this in any case. If all that changes is the requirement to use a non animal based scent, it will not be a huge problem logistically for many- even if it is politically and culturally. Some hunts may choose to disband, hounds may be drafted to other packs and some older hounds or tricky ones that cannot find a home that can really work for them may be euthanized. That isn't a welfare issue. Hounds really are unlike other dogs - they are sensitive and very dependent on their pack for a happy, confident life. they are bred to live and work as a pack so are very different in that sense to many domestic dogs. A well cared for pack of hounds actually have a really good, pretty natural life and many, many of them are joyful.

What I fear is that hunts following a non animal based scent will continue to be harassed by sabs, who will also continue to flood SM and the local police with spurious 'reports' of illegal hunting. In what other sphere of life is that acceptable? Vigilantes outside pubs and clubs, following people home in case they are over the limit or have been using recreational drugs? Anti-capitalist protesters abusing shoppers on the high street, preventing entry to Primark - masked and dressed in para-military clothing? Animal rights activists intimidating supermarket shoppers? We already have abusive, intimidating racists abusing people who have every right and legal permission to be here - how much further do we want to develop a culture of opinion based intimidation? Think about the values and kind of society we want!
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I really hope if hunts clean up their act and behave that the rent a mob sabs can then be dealt with. They dont bother bloodhound packs or similar, they dont seem to bother hunts that arent hunting foxes, so it should then just stop.
 
Clodagh said:
I’m no astounded they were given more than one chance (the walker, not the puppies). Mine always went back steady to everything. Except squirrels.
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These may have been blips along the way, you remember the drama not the final result

Owner was the terrier man for the local hunt so had semi official capacity. He bred Jack Russells, gorgeous dogs who ran free and joined us in hacks so I never saw a dog on a lead.

That's why we hunted as children, ponies loaded into a lorry and off we went , no choice. Even the sensitive kids who cried all the way through. He was also high up in the pony club and we were loaded into the back of an open back land rover for unmounted rallies which we would have found too boring given a choice

Long time ago.
 
palo1 said:
I think that the issue is that hunters do not want hounds to lose the unique ability to track natural scent which is far trickier than the alternatives. Many foxhounds and harriers have already adapted but there is absolutely a loss of something in that adaptation. For hound keepers much is at stake with the loss of natural scent - not just scenting but many variations of hound speaking, their voice and ways of working as a pack and more individual traits. It feels massive in honesty but logistically adaptation is possible. I do think for !many hunters and hound keepers, adaptation feels impossible to imagine because of how closely the breeding of hounds has been tied to natural quarry scent. I guess it is like deliberately breeding vegetarian lions for some folk...
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But there's all sort of dog based sports banned and dogs that have lost their type as a result. No one wants bull baiting back to improve Bulldogs.
 
I'm Dun said:
I really hope if hunts clean up their act and behave that the rent a mob sabs can then be dealt with. They dont bother bloodhound packs or similar, they dont seem to bother hunts that arent hunting foxes, so it should then just stop.
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Agree. Sabs have never caused issues for any of our local drag or clean boot hunts.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
How many hound packs have you actually got to know?

Ime all dogs live more happily in groups of their own kind. Life for hounds can be just about perfect. If most of us hear about horses living solitary lives, we object that they don't have the 5 Freedoms and yet you don't want hounds to live in well-fed packs, with regular exercise.
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A few, I would not say living in large groups, fights, cold hard floors and the risk of getting ran over on busy roads is ideal but we all have different opinions. My question of what happens to old, ill, slow and hounds that do not want to hunt has not been answered.
 
Tiddlypom said:
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While it's faintly ridiculous of RG to say that hounds are "trained against their natural instinct" and I've no objection to a bullet, it is pretty disturbing to think that potentially proper checks for death aren't being made. When I have to dispatch chickens the worst part of it is the worry of getting it wrong or causing unnecessary suffering, and I always at least check the eye reflex. The idea that a vet can't do it because they "smell of death" is just utterly laughable. What does that even mean? Do they never have vets attend hounds for illness or injury, or do they have special non-smelly vets for that part? Doesn't the kennelman also smell of death, given that they process fallen stock? Hounds eat dead flesh? I mean, the idea that people say these things and expect to be taken seriously is bizarre.
 
Sandstone1 said:
A few, I would not say living in large groups, fights, cold hard floors and the risk of getting ran over on busy roads is ideal but we all have different opinions. My question of what happens to old, ill, slow and hounds that do not want to hunt has not been answered.
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The only kennels I have detailed experience of is our local bloodhound pack. They have about five different group lodges there that means hounds can be divided up in to groups that get on well with each other. Beds are raised, insulated and filled with shavings. Yes the floor is concrete but shag pile carpet wouldn’t be practical! They all go out into the grass paddocks twice a day. They also get to do a job that they born to do and really enjoy. I think their life is preferable to that of a solitary pet dog left home alone all day whilst the owners are out working full time, particularly if from a working breed that needs plenty of exercise and stimulation.

They have a rehoming scheme for those who need to retire from hunting or those who don’t make the grade.
 
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