Pro hunting lobby spending spree

TGM said:
The only kennels I have experience of is our local bloodhound pack. They have about five different group lodges there that means hounds can be divided up in to groups that get on well with each other. Beds are raised, insulated and filled with shavings. Yes the floor is concrete but shag pile carpet wouldn’t be practical! They all go out into the grass paddocks twice a day. They also get to do a job that they born to do and really enjoy. I think their life is preferable to that of a solitary pet dog left home alone all day whilst the owners are out working full time, particularly if from a working breed that needs plenty of exercise and stimulation.

They have a rehoming scheme for those who need to retire from hunting or those who don’t make the grade.
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Interesting, Its not the same for Foxhounds sadly.
 
Bloodhounds are not the issue, They as far as I am aware hunt the clean boot. The issue is Foxhound packs who are supposed to trail hunt. Would be very interested to know what vet care they get.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
What do you propose they do with the hounds who are left with no job to do? They can't be split up and sent individually to pet homes.
Who do you think will pay to keep them in the manner to which they are accustomed? The Hunt members pay for the Hunt's day to day expenses, including the Huntsman's salary.
There will be no Hunt members, unless changes are made.
The Huntsman won't be getting a salary, will most likely lose his home (most are tied cottages) and will be jobless before the age that he had planned to retire.
Of course Hunts should always follow the law but much of what I have read about what people dislike isn't to do with animal welfare more like class warfare, otherwise why would so many people mention traditional Hunt dress in their invective?
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Then they should have spent the last 20 years hunting within the law instead of blatantly flaunting it and causing mayhem in the process. Boo-hoo-ing about it now is too late. I've had them over my private land twice in the last 3 years, upsetting my horses badly (it's bad enough when they are just out in the area - I'm already dreading tomorrow, when they are meeting less than a mile away). No way are those laid trails. A ban on this sort of hunting is well overdue IMO, and all my neighbours would agree.
 
Landcruiser said:
Then they should have spent the last 20 years hunting within the law instead of blatantly flaunting it and causing mayhem in the process. Boo-hoo-ing about it now is too late. I've had them over my private land twice in the last 3 years, upsetting my horses badly (it's bad enough when they are just out in the area - I'm already dreading tomorrow, when they are meeting less than a mile away). No way are those laid trails. A ban on this sort of hunting is well overdue IMO, and all my neighbours would agree.
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I think I’m local to you LC. I’ve got a rough idea of where they are heading tomorrow if you want to message me.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
What do you propose they do with the hounds who are left with no job to do? They can't be split up and sent individually to pet homes.

Who do you think will pay to keep them in the manner to which they are accustomed? The Hunt members pay for the Hunt's day to day expenses, including the Huntsman's salary. Won't the hunt members [ay for their upkeep? They love the hounds so, so much and want to keep the bloodlines?
There will be no Hunt members, unless changes are made.
The Huntsman won't be getting a salary, will most likely lose his home (most are tied cottages) and will be jobless before the age that he had planned to retire.
Of course Hunts should always follow the law but much of what I have read about what people dislike isn't to do with animal welfare more like class warfare, otherwise why would so many people mention traditional Hunt dress in their invective? If hunters were not killing foxes no one would be objecting, that's why they don't sab clean boot hunting?
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Nocturnal said:
I feel that if this was really about animal welfare there would be more concern about the fact that fox populations have declined since the ban, and efforts put in to coming up with a better solution than just shooting foxes.

Why are hunters not overjoyed at this information? Foxes are vermin right? That is why they need to be hunted, to keep livestock safe. So if numbers are dwindling that should be just what hunters want? I have never seen pest controlors complaining about a reduction of rat numbers?
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palo1 said:
They have had 20 years to follow the law, which explicitly allows for following an animal based scent. Right or wrong, that is The Hunting Act.
They knew this was coming! They have had 20 years to retrain their dogs, but they carried on hunting foxes. I have no pity.
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palo1 said:
I disagree - trail hounds can learn to follow an alternative scent and if that is what is required by any new law, that is what some/many hunts will do. many hunts already do this in any case. If all that changes is the requirement to use a non animal based scent, it will not be a huge problem logistically for many- even if it is politically and culturally. Some hunts may choose to disband, hounds may be drafted to other packs and some older hounds or tricky ones that cannot find a home that can really work for them may be euthanized. That isn't a welfare issue. Hounds really are unlike other dogs - they are sensitive and very dependent on their pack for a happy, confident life. they are bred to live and work as a pack so are very different in that sense to many domestic dogs. A well cared for pack of hounds actually have a really good, pretty natural life and many, many of them are joyful. How are hounds different to other domestic dogs?
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palo1 said:
What I fear is that hunts following a non animal based scent will continue to be harassed by sabs, who will also continue to flood SM and the local police with spurious 'reports' of illegal hunting. In what other sphere of life is that acceptable? Vigilantes outside pubs and clubs, following people home in case they are over the limit or have been using recreational drugs? Anti-capitalist protesters abusing shoppers on the high street, preventing entry to Primark - masked and dressed in para-military clothing? Animal rights activists intimidating supermarket shoppers? We already have abusive, intimidating racists abusing people who have every right and legal permission to be here - how much further do we want to develop a culture of opinion based intimidation? Think about the values and kind of society we want! If the sabs want to follow how is that a problem if you are not hunting live fox? People have protested to facillitate change for hundreds of years.
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Pearlsacarolsinger said:
I'm not sure how someone who has never been to a Hunt kennels can criticise the way the hounds are kept. They certainly can't comment knowledgeably. Is this the same sort of thing as 'if you haven't ridden GP dressage then you can't comment'?
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ETA: Sorry, I'm not very good at the quote thing, so had to reply in each quote box, and did split one of Palo1 coments but can't unsplit it! Sorry!
 
Clodagh said:
There are some bad hunt kennels, like there are many bad pet homes. Hunt kennels are at least licensed and inspected. I strongly doubt Sandstone has ever been round a kennels. I have spent a lot of time in them and hounds always seem to be living their best life.ts right
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You are wrong there. I have been to hunt kennels and they are very very basic. I do actually work with dogs in a kennel environment with working dogs so before you spout rubbish get your facts right! [Quite funny how people assume things really to suit themselves! Even funnier as I spend my working hours with working dogs!} Still waiting for a answer to what vet treatment working hounds get? Are they all microchipped? Are they all vaccinated? Do they get regular heath checks?
 
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Sandstone1 said:
You are wrong there. I have been to hunt kennels and they are very very basic. I do actually work with dogs in a kennel environment with working dogs so before you spout rubbish get your facts right! Still waiting for an answer to what vet treatment working hounds get? Are they all microchipped?
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I only just got home and answered your query immediately. Of course they get vet care. The sab ideal of starving neglected hounds wallowing in their own filth is taken from an example of very poor practice.

I did think that coverage of the hounds getting shot was appalling. Yes, huntsmen shoot the hounds at the end of their working life but generally it is done very respectfully.
 
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Clodagh said:
Yes.
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Are they really. What happens to them when old, injured , too slow, dont want to work etc etc???? I am sorry I didnt see your comment earlier. I had you on UI .
Out of interest how old is the average hound when its working days are over and it gets a respectful bullet in its brain?
 
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Sandstone1 said:
Are they really. What happens to them when old, injured , too slow, dont want to work etc etc???? I am sorry I didnt see your comment earlier. I had you on UI .
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Like any other animal decisions are made in the best interests of hounds. Some go back to their puppy walkers to live out their lives, some are drafted to other packs where they may be more suited and yes some will be shot.
 
Sandstone1 said:
You are wrong there. I have been to hunt kennels and they are very very basic. I do actually work with dogs in a kennel environment with working dogs so before you spout rubbish get your facts right! [Quite funny how people assume things really to suit themselves! Even funnier as I spend my working hours with working dogs!} Still waiting for a answer to what vet treatment working hounds get? Are they all microchipped? Are they all vaccinated? Do they get regular heath checks?
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Hounds are generally tattooed rather than chipped and are routinely wormed, jabbed and receive vet treatment. My local pack have all of this done via a farm vet and in this area it is standard practice. Kennels have isolation areas, heat lamps and whelping kennels and are available for subscribers to view annually - there is considerable pride in the hound lodges. Ours have framed photos of particular hounds and an annual roll call of those who have passed on. Local hounds have occasionally been joined in the lodges by visiting cats (no, I'm not sharing photos but I have them), various birds, including a wild goose and even a visiting goat!

The hound keeper has chickens, domestic dogs and cats and all are safe with hounds.
 
Sandstone1 said:
Are they really. What happens to them when old, injured , too slow, dont want to work etc etc???? I am sorry I didnt see your comment earlier. I had you on UI .
Out of interest how old is the average hound when its working days are over and it gets a respectful bullet in its brain?
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They are not pets. The idea of all old hounds living out their peaceful life on the sofa is a little unrealistic.
But please put me back on UI, you got me suspended last time we discussed this.
I shall return the favour.
 
palo1 said:
Hounds are generally tattooed rather than chipped and are routinely wormed, jabbed and receive vet treatment. My local pack have all of this done via a farm vet and in this area it is standard practice. Kennels have isolation areas, heat lamps and whelping kennels and are available for subscribers to view annually - there is considerable pride in the hound lodges. Ours have framed photos of particular hounds and an annual roll call of those who have passed on. Local hounds have occasionally been joined in the lodges by visiting cats (no, I'm not sharing photos but I have them), various birds, including a wild goose and even a visiting goat!

The hound keeper has chickens, domestic dogs and cats and all are safe with hounds.
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Interesting, I have just read that most hounds stop working at around 6 or 7. The average age for a natural life span would be around 12 or 13. Do we assume then that most hounds are only allowed aprox half their natural life span before being shot? Or do they get retired?
 
Clodagh said:
They are not pets. The idea of all old hounds living out their peaceful life on the sofa is a little unrealistic.
But please put me back on UI, you got me suspended last time we discussed this.
I shall return the favour.
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I shall certainly put you back on UI. I think you will find you got yourself suspended. I do not have the power of suspending anyone.
 
Well I for one will not put @Clodagh on UI she says it as it is and is so right. I get that hunting is an emotive subject but please be realistic! Clearly people who have not been involved closely with kennels have no idea. Have never seen huntsmen in tears putting down hounds or their old hunters. Some of you think they are heartless, when actually they have far more compassion than those who believe that being alive and miserable or in pain,is better than being dead.
 
Sandstone1 said:
It is indeed a emotive subject. Clodagh may well " say it as it is" but is she so right? Thats open for discussion. I am very anti hunting and the sooner its banned fully the better for me. I am out of this now as its doing me no good. Time will tell the fate of hunting.
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This is a forum called the Horse and Hound forum, the magazine has a quote on the front cover, it always has had….
You are never going to believe anything written by anyone who disagrees with you, you seem to want to believe everything that goes against hunting, be it true, blown out of proportion and in some instances just not true…
My believe is that if trail hunting is stopped, then the saboteurs will turn their attention to all other types of sport where people follow packs of hounds, be it clean boot or bloodhounds….
 
Ditchjumper2 said:
If the sabs deem they have won they will turn to other activities of that there is no doubt. They won't stop at hunting either! So be careful what you wish for folks 😉
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Do you mean other bloodsports? I have literally no experience with sabs, do they also get involved in like pheasant shoots or deer hunting?
 
The antis DID back off here when local pack went legit after being naughty. All was good and peace returned for a season or two after years of chaos.

Then local pack completely went and blew it with an idiotic choice of new huntsman and attracted the antis and the police right back on them again, with new huntsman getting another conviction for illegal hunting in the process. There’s another trial in the offing, too, with the hunt directors up for failing to take proper care of hounds who were found by police on a hunting day lost and milling about unattended on a public road - which happens A LOT.

I wouldn’t trust any hunt’s assertion that they are trail hunting legally - they all say that, don’t they.
 
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Marshpiper said:
This is a forum called the Horse and Hound forum, the magazine has a quote on the front cover, it always has had….
You are never going to believe anything written by anyone who disagrees with you, you seem to want to believe everything that goes against hunting, be it true, blown out of proportion and in some instances just not true…
My believe is that if trail hunting is stopped, then the saboteurs will turn their attention to all other types of sport where people follow packs of hounds, be it clean boot or bloodhounds….
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Marshpiper said:
This is a forum called the Horse and Hound forum, the magazine has a quote on the front cover, it always has had….
You are never going to believe anything written by anyone who disagrees with you, you seem to want to believe everything that goes against hunting, be it true, blown out of proportion and in some instances just not true…
My believe is that if trail hunting is stopped, then the saboteurs will turn their attention to all other types of sport where people follow packs of hounds, be it clean boot or bloodhounds….
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Sorry but just to point out the quote you speak of has gone from the magazine...
This forum may be called Horse and Hound but I think you will find that many on here are anti hunting.
Its not if hunting will be stopped but when. It is already illegal which makes people that take part criminals.
 
smolmaus said:
Do you mean other bloodsports? I have literally no experience with sabs, do they also get involved in like pheasant shoots or deer hunting?
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They do indeed. If they are bored enough they will hassle shoots, anglers and legit drag hunts. They particularly enjoy disrupting professional shoots as they know that these earn landowners money and that as soon as they turn up, all the guns get locked up. It is a very easy win and generally logistically much simpler than scurrying around after a trail hunt.
 
palo1 said:
They do indeed. If they are bored enough they will hassle shoots, anglers and legit drag hunts. They particularly enjoy disrupting professional shoots as they know that these earn landowners money and that as soon as they turn up, all the guns get locked up. It is a very easy win and generally logistically much simpler than scurrying around after a trail hunt.
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I think a fair amount of them enjoy the activity of following the hunts around though - a sort of robin hood for the fox population type vibe. Animal welfare-wise there are a lot more causes about that are arguably more significant, but most would involve more traditional and less proactive types of protest.

If it is just the scents that are legislated for, I shouldn't think much will change at all - sabs/monitors will continue as they have done and the dodgy hunts will probably continue 'accidentally' chasing foxes. I don't think entrenched antis will be satisfied with anything less than trail hunting packs all being disbanded.
 
Sandstone1 said:
Sorry but just to point out the quote you speak of has gone from the magazine...
This forum may be called Horse and Hound but I think you will find that many on here are anti hunting.
Its not if hunting will be stopped but when. It is already illegal which makes people that take part criminals.
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To be sure of my facts, I checked last weeks magazine, the paper one…top right is the quote….I cannot check again, as I have lent my copy to my neighbour….feel free to look at a copy yourself…
Also the majority of people who take part in legal trail hunting are not criminals….
 
I'd actually be quite pleased if sabs move onto driven shooting. That offends me just as much as the behaviour of the hunts, legal or not. I don't care about walked-up/rough shooting but I find the exploitation of animals for the lowland driven version nauseating, and many features of upland driven shooting are just as bad. Pheasants often being bred in factory conditions, imported, released just at the time of year when some important and dwindling native species are trying to get ready for the winter, having real impacts on wild biodiversity such that their release around wildlife sites (because obviously most of the countryside is not for wildlife) is finally being addressed to some extent, not to mention that their presence supports a bunch of scavenging species that country people then want to shoot because they do 'too well', and the weaseling way in which they suddenly become 'wildlife' once released, so are not subject to any rules around disease control, etc.; quite apart from the idea that wounding and killing animals simply for fun is still considered a legitimate way to spend and make money, and then those of us who are interested in wildlife have the threat of the minimal conservation measures the average shoot undertakes being withdrawn, because there has to be a quid pro quo in that stuff for shooters. Many of them literally will not help wildlife just because it's the right thing to do. The idea currently being put about in many posts on SM that to be a proper country person one has to agree with these pursuits is offensive tbh.
 
DabDab said:
If it is just the scents that are legislated for, I shouldn't think much will change at all - sabs/monitors will continue as they have done and the dodgy hunts will probably continue 'accidentally' chasing foxes
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The current situation makes it difficult to reach the evidence needed for proof. One judge commented along those lines and acquitted someone who he believed was guilty but the act was flawed.

If it was illegal to use animal scents then any hunt found to have used it could be prosecuted without the ambiguity of whether hounds were deliberately or accidentally following a fox. If the hounds were trained to follow an artificial scent like drag hounds are then genuine accidents would be less likely which surely everyone wants to avoid.
 
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