Pro or go elsewhere

[charlotte0916]

My tricky mare is once again being tricky!

Today we had the text that we officially need to find a new home - I knew it was coming and it’s totally fair, but I’m not 100% made up on what to do next.

Our problems/reasons for eviction:
- separation anxiety from others (Happy to leave them but looses the plot if they leave her, total melt down in the field or stable, has to come in from the field now when others leave because she’s ruined 2 in 7 weeks. Doesn’t care if she has other company, doesn’t like *any* horse leaving near her).

-not great to rug (handy with her feet when she’s moody, terrible at standing still and with personal space so you may gets squished).

-not great with her feet (gets easily upset - e.g. annoyed about having her feet dealt with after having had an abscess a few weeks ago and when she does walks away/falls over/waves them around).

-new fun thing, hasn’t been good at being caught for the last few days. Ears flat back, threatening faces, pulling away when she’s had her headcollar on and running off.

Would any yard owner take her/is it a fair ask or should I be looking for a pro for sales livery to find her a private home where they can control more of the variables/have less meltdowns?

I’m not in a position to have her at my own place so my options are livery or not. I’ve got her over these problems a few times when they’re popped up since I’ve had her but it takes time, patience and I can’t guarantee it will stick/be the same for others handing her.

It’s a real shame because she’s one of the best horses I’ve ever ridden and will clean up eventing as soon as she can go out but does come with quirks.

 

[Squeak]

I guess it depends on whether you can get livery again or not and if you want to keep going with her. If not I'd be inclined to sell her yourself with full disclosure as people will be willing to forgive a lot for a horse that's good to ride. She sounds like she could suit someone with their horses on a private yard who doesn't have the funds to be able to buy something without a quirk.

Personally I wouldn't send her to a pro to sell because you risk her getting more upset by them and have no control over the home she goes to or what is disclosed to the purchasers.

 

[charlotte0916]

I guess it depends on whether you can get livery again or not and if you want to keep going with her. If not I'd be inclined to sell her yourself with full disclosure as people will be willing to forgive a lot for a horse that's good to ride. She sounds like she could suit someone with their horses on a private yard who doesn't have the funds to be able to buy something without a quirk.

Personally I wouldn't send her to a pro to sell because you risk her getting more upset by them and have no control over the home she goes to or what is disclosed to the purchasers.

The reason I’m wondering about a pro is I’ve been asked to move her asap, so I was thinking they may be better placed to cope with her in the interim than a standard livery as I need at least some assistance around work. I would have to choose very carefully though, I agree and would be looking for sales livery where I had control over where she went, rather than to sell on.

 

[ihatework]

A good pro yard will happily take her on, they have routine and staff so can usually accommodate most horses. Won’t be cheap mind.

She doesn’t sound very happy though. I’d do a basic work up, gastroscope and ovary scan before passing her on.

 

[Polos Mum]

If any of this is new I would look for physical causes.

Some yards suit some horses and other yards they hate. Has she ever been happy / relaxed in a yard?

I would try a different type of yard before giving up and selling (assuming you like her in other regards).

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Agree with above she doesn't sound very happy I would check that nothing is wrong physically before sending her away or selling.

 

[Ali27]

My mare had major separation anxiety when we got her 11 1/2 years ago! Luckily we owned another mare who she became very attached to! I could take her away from other mare to ride but she was very bolshy inhand! No way could our other mare be taken away from her as she got absolutely hysterical! Luckily my daughter and I could ride together most of the time but it was a nightmare!
I started using a Richard Maxwell pressure halter to load her and soon used it to do lots of groundwork! Our other mare was retired due to injury after around 5 years so she always had her companion in field/ next to her in stable. We then sadly lost other mare, so she went on full livery temporarily on individual turnout which really helped her separation anxiety! Although she always had to have one field neighbour and never be left until last. We now have our own land and a little companion for her but she still would hate to have companion taken away from her although she is perfect to take away from companion now! I do think if a horse has separation anxiety that it’s pretty impossible to overcome it completely!
Have you thought of buying/ loaning a companion so you are in control of the situation and she always has that constant safety blanket?

 

[Sossigpoker]

She sounds like a horse with something physically wrong with her.
I'd get her hormones checked and scope for ulcers. Mine was stressy and unhappy because he had ulcers and these in turn were caused by impingement in cervical spine

 

[charlotte0916]

A good pro yard will happily take her on, they have routine and staff so can usually accommodate most horses. Won’t be cheap mind.

She doesn’t sound very happy though. I’d do a basic work up, gastroscope and ovary scan before passing her on.

She’s a really odd horse - ever since I’ve had her she’s had very rare moments when she’s not ‘wired’ - she’s been compared to a kid with ADHD - and is easily upset by things around her.

So far she’s had her back xrayed (clean), been scoped (treated for grade 4 ulcers she came to me with and scoped clear) and had a thorough work up recently as she was cleared from the vet following a kick injury.

 

[charlotte0916]

If any of this is new I would look for physical causes.

Some yards suit some horses and other yards they hate. Has she ever been happy / relaxed in a yard?

I would try a different type of yard before giving up and selling (assuming you like her in other regards).

Not really, she’s happiest turned out/just come in from being turned out but hates anything moving nearby. I’ve tried her with two companion ponies who she was happy with until the big horse in the next field left then they were totally ignored in favour of galloping around screaming It’s not consistent though, one day she’ll cope with it the next it blows her mind.

 

[sbloom]

Not sure where you are but is there a pro nears you who's truly holistic? I work with a rehab trainer who looks at a model of "boiling point" - so many horses are so near boiling point with discomfort, environment that doesn't suit them, past events etc etc, that there is no head room before they emotionally or physically break. Tackling all these factors, but especially physical and emotional (and perhaps advice on routines, environment etc), with one person, or of course a really good team, is the best way to go. You start to reduce their temperature with each change, and gradually get yourself back to a position where your horse is generally happy and healthy and running at 40 degrees

 

[charlotte0916]

My mare had major separation anxiety when we got her 11 1/2 years ago! Luckily we owned another mare who she became very attached to! I could take her away from other mare to ride but she was very bolshy inhand! No way could our other mare be taken away from her as she got absolutely hysterical! Luckily my daughter and I could ride together most of the time but it was a nightmare!
I started using a Richard Maxwell pressure halter to load her and soon used it to do lots of groundwork! Our other mare was retired due to injury after around 5 years so she always had her companion in field/ next to her in stable. We then sadly lost other mare, so she went on full livery temporarily on individual turnout which really helped her separation anxiety! Although she always had to have one field neighbour and never be left until last. We now have our own land and a little companion for her but she still would hate to have companion taken away from her although she is perfect to take away from companion now! I do think if a horse has separation anxiety that it’s pretty impossible to overcome it completely!
Have you thought of buying/ loaning a companion so you are in control of the situation and she always has that constant safety blanket?

That sounds like a very similar situation to my mare. I’ve thought about it but she’s previously ignored her companions if any others move - it’s not quite like normal separation anxiety, it’s like the additional sensory input of another horse moving tips her over the edge and blows her brain a bit. I’m also at uni and will be finishing soon so will have to move for my career etc, making 2 horses a more challenging prospect let alone on savings/student loan!

My ideas currently are:
1) move her to a larger livery with a set routine so she’s less likely to become attached to one other. With a professional who’s happy to cope with a handful.
2) move her to 24/7 turnout if I can find it and see if that helps her chill out.
3) Look at selling her to someone with their own place and a permanent retiree/companion so she can leave them but they’ll not be taken away from her and no other stimuli of horses coming/going on a livery yard.

 

[charlotte0916]

Not sure where you are but is there a pro nears you who's truly holistic? I work with a rehab trainer who looks at a model of "boiling point" - so many horses are so near boiling point with discomfort, environment that doesn't suit them, past events etc etc, that there is no head room before they emotionally or physically break. Tackling all these factors, but especially physical and emotional (and perhaps advice on routines, environment etc), with one person, or of course a really good team, is the best way to go. You start to reduce their temperature with each change, and gradually get yourself back to a position where your horse is generally happy and healthy and running at 40 degrees

That sounds fantastic - I’d love to be able to work with a trainer like that. I’m based near Bristol.
I’ve previously tried clicker training and bits of TRT groundwork with her - with reasonably good effects but I haven’t worked with a pro on it yet. I keep comparing it to ‘trigger stacking’ it’s like if she’s in the stable that’s a stress, so then any outside stimuli like a funny noise amps her up and then asking to do things like change her rug or pick her feet tip her over the edge are an additional ‘pressure’ that tip her over the edge.

 

[sbloom]

If you could travel to Stratford on Avon I recommend Dan Wain Equestrian, he may have space

 

[TheMule]

She's not going to be easy to sell with her management quirks and her veterinary history. She's the sort I have taken on in the past, but they have been given to me or very cheap.
It sounds likely that she still has some physical discomfort so I'm not sure how much you want to investigate- she could be a bit of a money pit for not much gain

 

[nagblagger]

I think your first decision would be 'do i want to keep her'? Be honest with yourself, once that decision is made you will now what route to go down..

 

[charlotte0916]

If you could travel to Stratford on Avon I recommend Dan Wain Equestrian, he may have space

Fab, thank you for the recommendation, I’ll look into it!

 

[charlotte0916]

She's not going to be easy to sell with her management quirks and her veterinary history. She's the sort I have taken on in the past, but they have been given to me or very cheap.
It sounds likely that she still has some physical discomfort so I'm not sure how much you want to investigate- she could be a bit of a money put for not much gain

The funny thing is if I could just crack her management on the ground she would be an utter dream. She’s been several months out of work and following 5 weeks of hacking I took her in the school for the first time yesterday and with what she gave me in the walk and trot she could go out and win an intro dressage test currently and a prelim in a couple of weeks. She really is the most balanced, light, forward thinking, non-silly/sharp 5 year old ever to ride. She will also be the ultimate event horse, she’s bold, un-spooky, clever, quick thinking and athletic so won’t have a problem.

In an ideal world I would keep her because she is something really special - I’m largely considering how to give her the best quality of life, as I’ve yet to work out what ‘the problem’ is.

 

[nagblagger]

Great, decision made...now ask the forum how they can help. A lot of good ideas already but at least they can concentrate on solutions to her management problem...
Sorry i'm no expert, so unable to help.. but will be reading this thread. Good luck

 

[charlotte0916]

I’ve been having a think on all the suggestions in the last few days and flip flop back and forth between I need to sell this horse now (when she attempts to kick me) and she is a bit of a super star in the making (when I ride her). I’ve got in touch with a trainer hoping they may be able to help and put her back on oestress to test the hormones theory with a view to testing when she has her flu jab at the end of the month potentially.
I’ve also had a look at two yards over the weekend and think it comes down to two options -

1) Find her 24/7 turnout with a buddy next door who just lives out and an arena so I can keep up the schooling her brain needs (am I dreaming or is this possible?).
2) Move her to the yard I saw this weekend which are used to doing rehabs/young horses so could cope with her antics but it would kill or cure her being in a 28 horse American barn with weekend DIY so lots of moving parts to blow her brain.

Selling her is still an option but a) she’s super talented and I think I’d be hard pressed to find another I’d enjoy riding as much, especially in this market. b) she currently has no comp record but talent and plenty of quirks and I don’t want her being a quick flip for someone/being harshly handled because she is a ‘bring it on’ attitude kind of mare who would provoke that.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I think I’d get Dan Wain to assess her and then decide.

 

[nagblagger]

I personally would prefer the 24hr turnout, the more natural option first, as if the busy yard causes her 'brain to completely blow', it would be even harder to sell /rehab.

 

[Boulty]

Would get an MOT from vet to rule out physical causes & then would see if you can find that rocking horse poo yard where the horses can live out all year ideally with access to a shelter (but with option of stables for emergencies). It might be that with that kind of setup she may settle better if it's a large stable herd where nobody else loses their mind when 1 horse is taken away. Such setups tend to have more space in terms of acreage per horse so harder for her to trash than a small paddock.

Another option would be a full or part livery yard where everything goes out & comes in together at the same time on a strict routine (& just ask them not to rug change or handle feet whilst you work on those issues). It's not going to solve her losing the plot about friends being taken away but may minimise the occasions it happens. Would recommend a stable where nobody has to walk past her to get out of the barn if you looked for this

 

[Darkly_Dreaming_Dex]

Love Dan and if you saw him on

If you could travel to Stratford on Avon I recommend Dan Wain Equestrian, he may have space

one of his Tom Beech days then you could cover a lot of bases in one journey!

 

[LEC]

Gosh you could almost be writing about my good horse!

I wouldn’t be able to cope with mine on livery with complete random routines, it just wouldn’t work. She is neurotic and highly anxious so everything has to be managed round her. Literally every horses routine is worked out round this one horse ?. She is a homebred so been known her whole life and has always been like it.

Put a saddle on and it’s the most amazing horse. Won at BE, rarely unplaced. Get off the horse and she is a raging cow in a 17.2hh package. If her adrenaline isn’t up she is fine. As soon as that adrenaline kicks in she is awful. I literally moan all the time about her especially, when she is out of work. She is a complete pain in the arse but she jumps and she does a beautiful dressage test so she stays!

I would say the hind feet is a physical issue. One of mine had to be sedated a couple of times but did come out the other side. She was big and weak so lost her balance then became upset. My top tip is to spend a lot of time picking up feet - I clicker trained this one. I always have a likit to train relaxation and while unbalanced and weak I walk them and walk them while farrier doesn’t need to hold their feet up. The neurotic one has just developed a problem being shod behind after pulling a muscle up high. I can’t decide if it’s mental or physical so going to err on side of caution and take her to the vet as never had an issue before this.

My more amenable mare had to be moved. I had her at home with a retired 25yo but she didn’t really like it so moved her to a livery yard which was much busier and always had horses about and she was much happier.

I find with that type of horse a strict routine helps them a lot. They know exactly what is happening and when. All horses turned out/come in at same time. It helps them a lot.

I have a foal in utero and I do really hope it’s a male! I have a lot of mares, they are great in so many ways but a complete pain in the backside in others.

 

[tda]

I don't normally reply to these sort of threads because a 17hh competition horse is so very far removed from my horse owning experience, ? BUT, it's a 5 year old, and it's screaming at you that it is not coping. Please feel free to ignore me but I would turn it away totally for a year and start again

 

[charlotte0916]

Gosh you could almost be writing about my good horse!

I wouldn’t be able to cope with mine on livery with complete random routines, it just wouldn’t work. She is neurotic and highly anxious so everything has to be managed round her. Literally every horses routine is worked out round this one horse ?. She is a homebred so been known her whole life and has always been like it.

Put a saddle on and it’s the most amazing horse. Won at BE, rarely unplaced. Get off the horse and she is a raging cow in a 17.2hh package. If her adrenaline isn’t up she is fine. As soon as that adrenaline kicks in she is awful. I literally moan all the time about her especially, when she is out of work. She is a complete pain in the arse but she jumps and she does a beautiful dressage test so she stays!

I would say the hind feet is a physical issue. One of mine had to be sedated a couple of times but did come out the other side. She was big and weak so lost her balance then became upset. My top tip is to spend a lot of time picking up feet - I clicker trained this one. I always have a likit to train relaxation and while unbalanced and weak I walk them and walk them while farrier doesn’t need to hold their feet up. The neurotic one has just developed a problem being shod behind after pulling a muscle up high. I can’t decide if it’s mental or physical so going to err on side of caution and take her to the vet as never had an issue before this.

My more amenable mare had to be moved. I had her at home with a retired 25yo but she didn’t really like it so moved her to a livery yard which was much busier and always had horses about and she was much happier.

I find with that type of horse a strict routine helps them a lot. They know exactly what is happening and when. All horses turned out/come in at same time. It helps them a lot.

I have a foal in utero and I do really hope it’s a male! I have a lot of mares, they are great in so many ways but a complete pain in the backside in others.

I can’t tell you the relief (or horror) of hearing there are more like her! I keep trying to explain to people what she’s like and either they think I’m over exaggerating or are completely stumped by her collection of weirdness.

Like yours she does best in a routine, ideally with one person only handling her. This is why we had to leave her first yard because they had 4 rounds of turnout/bring in during the day and you can imagine that went down a treat!

Exactly the same as yours, once your bum is in the saddle she’s in work mode and is a total pro. I have no doubt I could take her out to her first BE in the spring and she’d clean up.

I’ve taken a similar route to you with the feet - I’ve done tonnes of clicker training to get her over pain memory being tacked up/rugged after ulcers and she responds well to it. Feet have gone from being unable to touch any of them 2 weeks ago without her trying to step on you/fall over/kick you to calming lifting the fronts to be picked. Backs are a work in progress but are now lifted and held calmly for a couple of seconds. People have tried to suggest the ‘get tough’ approach with her and I’ve tried to explain that would be a ‘get dead’ approach. Beyond that she’s a sensitive mare and I want to work with her rather than against. I’ve got the farrier on Weds and am planning to ask if he can see anything amiss, if not will look at getting the vet out but she was pronounced exceedingly sound when she was poked and prodded last week.

I think I’m erring towards 24/7 turnout at a quiet place with permanent companions if I can find it - I think the livery option could be a killer with so many moving parts.

 

[charlotte0916]

I don't normally reply to these sort of threads because a 17hh competition horse is so very far removed from my horse owning experience, ? BUT, it's a 5 year old, and it's screaming at you that it is not coping. Please feel free to ignore me but I would turn it away totally for a year and start again

That is one option I’m considering and have lined up as a plan b. She has just had 4 months off over the summer (albeit with some injury recovering for part of it) so she’s not work sick but I have considered if she needs the mental reset.

The funny thing is she’s a much happier horse after some work - not hard work, even just 10 mins of walking around seems to help move her from being worried about the world around her to more calm and centred - I think it helps move her out of her own head and stressing a bit so weighing up whether that will help or harm to cut out for her sake more than mine. I do think turnout is a key for her though. I appreciate the sounding board everyone here offers, it does help to clarify things when you write it all down

 

[LEC]

People have tried to suggest the ‘get tough’ approach with her and I’ve tried to explain that would be a ‘get dead’ approach. Beyond that she’s a sensitive mare and I want to work with her rather than against.

It doesn’t work. They are acting this way because they are defensive anxious. It just would tip them over the edge.

One of the problems I find with mares is that they do hold onto things and don’t forgive easily. Both under saddle and on the ground. If it’s pain related in the past they don’t forget quickly. You just have to get through it with patience and repetitive work.

 

[Boulty]

My gelding who was a bit this way inclined was infinitely better able to cope with the world in general with more turnout in a herd where most of the horses lived out (due to his health needs he himself couldn't totally live out & needed some time in a stable eating good quality hay / haylage year round. Oddly once settled in he was actually happier to come in during the day, often on his own & be in for less time than to come in overnight in winter & have company.)

When on a "normal" yard he frequently wouldn't let the staff catch him, nearly broke YMs fingers (her own fault for not listening to how she was told to handle him), couldn't be handled safely in a stable if not tied up. He weaved when stressed (& threatened to come over stable doors when especially stressed) He could still have his moments but was overall a lot calmer & easier to deal with in a different environment with just me & a few other people handling him - none of who tried to bully him or insist that he behaved like a "normal" horse... He REALLY hated being bullied & would absolutely choose "fight" if he was scared & cornered (strangely he'd go down to the field like a lamb with YOs non horsey sister)