Probably done before but... Cesar Millan?

Bossdog

Bossdog

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 August 2006
Messages
739
Location
Central Scotland
Visit site
I've been watching the Dog Whisperer for the last week and I'm curious to know what peoples opinions on him are? Some of his methods I really don't like, seeing him pick up a small dog by it's choke chain wasn't nice but the majority of his work seems to get good results. Does it work long term, what are your opinions on the whole "pack leader" thing? I'm not sure how to take him because the large amount of good work is negated by the small amount of bad work. But he has undoubtedly saved some dogs lives. What do you think?
 
Have only read about him, at his official web site and in dogpaper articles.

About the "pack leader" thing, IF I have understood his views correctly, we don't quite agree.

Most people with these theories, refers to a wild alfa male wolf, always being in charge. First problem is, that it ( usually ) goes back to a study made on the "pecking order" amongst hens. Second problem is, that further studies on hens, have shown that the "pecking order" weren't as simple as the scientist first thought.
Third problem is that studies on wild wolfs has showed, that the alfa male is quite willing to leave a big decision to a wolf with lower rank, if that wolf happens to be better on for instance tracking deers.
Therefore, when I read on his web site that the owner must be the leader 24/7, I become sceptical.


I think it's easier for me, especially as an owner of more than one dog, if my dogs believes that I decide their pack order. But not because they see me as the alfa DOG of our pack, without by me showing my respect for their place in MY pack order, sort of in the same way, they would have gotten respect in a pack of dogs.
Therefore, my first dog always gets her food first, are the first dog to go out through the door etc. But just as the wild alfa wolf understands that it might benefit his pack, if he doesn't have to be first on everything all of the time, I think my dogs can understand, that only because I might let second or third dog do something first sometimes, that doesn't have to equal a change in their pack order.



I think my dogs are aware about that humans aren't dogs. Therefor I feel quite happy with feeding my dogs before I eat my own food. Because that way, it's easier for me to resist their "Oh, I'm soooooo hungry" begging looks.
I think it matters more, that they learn that they have to wait for my command, before they can eat the food in their bowl, than if or if not I have eaten my food before them.



So I don't agree about that I always, day and night, have to be the leader of my pack. But I also believe dogs prefer to have somebody that they can respect, that most of the time, makes the big decisions.

from Sweden.
smile.gif
 
Interestingly I am just reading his book "Be the Pack Leader".
i haven't got too far in but to date I am undecided. A lot of what he says makes sense then you read a bit that makes you disagree.
an example is a list of dos and dont's:
Do establish house rules, boundaries and limitations between the human members of your pack before you bring the dog into your home.
Do make sure all the humans are on the same page as to what is and isn't allowed.
Do remain clear and consistent with your dog about the rules.
Do begin enforcing rules from the dogs first day at home.-yoyr dog does not underrstand the concept of a "special day" or "holiday" from rules!
Don't enforce rules if you are frustrated, angry emotional or tired.
Don't ever hit your dog out of anger.
Don't expect your dog to follow rules that aren't consistently enforced.
Don't reinforce or encourage a fearful or aggressive state of mind.

These are just some of the list. He believes that there is an enormous difference between discipline and the concept of punishment, and that dogs (and animals in general do not have the capability to make concious choices between right and wrong. I tend to agree with these.
However he is seen to use choke chains with small spikes in on some of his programmes.
Also there is a picture of his "claw" hand position which is used to simulate another dogs bite saying the grip is firm but not a pinch. The dog is pictured in a submissive pose i.e. lying down on its side. These parts make me disagree.
As I said, not sure, have only got to page 79 of about 295 so open mind at the moment. Does this help?
 
I do like him and the way's in wich he tries to make those who treat their dogs like babies and begin the have problems understand their faults, he can be a little full on with his explaining, but most of them need it
smirk.gif

Im not against being firm with a dog, I have no time for doggi huggers, esp when a situation when not handled correctly can became dangerous or out of hand, and even more so in larger breeds.
The show is only small snippets, and u never get to see what goes on behing the psychology center doors, when dogs stay for a few days, it would prob horrify some owners, and other as just to damn annoying and question anything u do with their precious child like pooch.

I allow my dogs to mix freely, and will only step in if a problem occurs, same with any scenario, the rest of the time their lifes are their own, I do think we need more caesars to stop the doggi world becoming barmy baby replacers and turning dogs into, well....something not recognizable as a dog
crazy.gif
a dog.
He gives those who want it help and a way forward.
 
I quite like some of his methods of dealing with owners but I do not agree with using electric collars, which I have seen him use, I also do not agree with the pronged choke chains he uses. When the collar is pulled they shove the sharp prongs into the dogs neck, not nice!
 
I've watched him for months now and I think he is brilliant. So what if he uses choke chains and electric collars, never once have I seen him make a dog recoil in fear or yelp. Yes you can say its a tv prog and all the bad bits are edited out but his principles are spot on and could relate quite well in the horse world.

Apart from that he's not bad looking and if theres a bit of eye candy on tv occasionally it cant be bad!
 
well everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, and as I said, I really like him in some ways. However, I strongly disagree with prong collars. I have no problem at all with normal choke chains if used properly I do not see why they have to have sharp prongs added to the insides though and would never use them on my dogs.
You are right also, there is no way they would show clips where a dog was recoiling or yelping in terror. I truly do admire him though for his pack and his ability to control them and have them all live together. I also admire him for the number of dogs he has saved from being put to sleep through re education.
 
The prong collar is in common use in the states, where he is based - I read somewhere that he uses what the owner is already familiar with, so I guess the argument is that if people are going to use these things anyway, he might as well try to teach them to use them properly.

That is not an argument for a prong collar, but if I've understood his reason for using it, it might make sense.
 
I read the next chapter last night which explains "tools" e.g leads,collars, harness,haltis and the Prong collar. The explaination for the prong collar makes some sense.
He gives an example of a 92pound rotty rescued by a lady with osteoporosis. The dog was taken to his centre for socialization for 2 weeks as the dog had been chained to a post for years. The lady was taught "calm assertive energy" but was unsure of herself due to her medical condition. The prong collar was used for stronger, quicker corrections to the dog which the lady coudn't have done without it.
He goes on to explain that any tool can be construed to be a "weapon" if misused for example a cheese knife is for cutting cheese but if taken by someone to stab another then it becomes a weapon. Good analogy I think.
We could say the same about a whip or spurs carried when we are riding. They should be used just for gentle reinforcement. but we have all seen them misused and a horse mistreated at some time.
Food for thought.
 
I like him alot and I admire his patience when dealing with some of the donut owners. When he uses the prong collar he usually says something to camera about using what the owners are comfortable with and I always get the feeling he is not keen on them . I have to say I'm not keen on metal choke chains as more often than not I see someone being walked by the dog who is breathing in an awful way with the chain pulled tight around the neck. Anything can be used in the wrong way and cause pain so I do think learning the right way is a better option . Whoever said he was eye candy I agree whole heartedly . YUm yum yum!!
 
I've been watching The Dog Whisperer every night for years and I have to say I think he is wonderful! An absolutely top-notch dog trainer and all the others pale in comparison to him.

I'm obviously interested because I have a pack of dogs. I've always brought my dogs up using similar techniques to Cesar, however he has taught me some other techniques that I haven't used before and which have been very successful. I have 2 giant dogs, 1 large dog and 2 medium dogs - all run free on my farm so I have to have a good amount of control over them all whatwith all the goings-on at the farm daily. My girls are very good however I have spent a lot of time teaching them to be good dogs - it has paid off big time, particularly with my huge Livestock Guardian Dogs
smile.gif
. LGDs are something else though and are very time-consuming in trying to get them to do anything you want them to do. I did wonder at one point whether Cesar had any experience with them and as yet I have never seen him work with one, so not sure if everything he teaches would work with them. The problem being that they travel and are not by your side so you have to teach them from afar - which in itself can be very very difficult at first. Mine have figured out their role here though, so with some help from me in teaching them where they AREN'T allowed to go, I pretty much leave them to do their job unaided ... as they are programmed to do.

Yes what Cesar teaches works long-term but as with anything, you do have to reconfirm these lessons every now and then, just to keep the dogs refreshed on what they are supposed to do. I do this pretty much every day as my dogs are outside with me at all times.
 
I watch it all the time, I think he's great.

What amazes me is how patient he is with some of the truly stupid people he has to deal with.

Things like the prong collars, I don't get the impression he's keen but I think he has to prioritise what the people he is dealing with will actually accept. Very often they are doing so many things wrong it must be difficult to know where to start.

The "biting" hand thing doesn't hurt the dogs, some of them are really agressive, seriously trying to bite him, he manages to calmly subdue them. If he doesn't get through to them they will most likely be PTS.

Last night I watched the program where he was rehabilitating Gavin the ATF dog. It was wonderful, he put so much into it and helped the dog so much I was crying by the end!
 
[ QUOTE ]
You are right also, there is no way they would show clips where a dog was recoiling or yelping in terror.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree actually. I've seen a great many clips where dogs do this ... and seen how he deals with them successfully.
smile.gif


If any one of my dogs was even half as bad as some of the dogs Cesar takes on, then I would have no qualms whatsoever with allowing him to use a prong collar on them. Some of these dogs have little or no chance of ever becoming good doggy citizens if he weren't around to help - and I also don't accept that it is the dog who is as fault, it really all comes down to total numpty owners! Sometimes I watch his programme and totally cringe at how incapable and stupid some people are - it totally blows me away that these people have managed to get themselves to mid-way through life, let alone their dogs
crazy.gif
.

Having watched Cesar for so long, I think he knows better than most of us what will work on any particular dog and if I was having any problems with my dogs, I'd give him carte blanche to teach them correctly, using whatever method he chose, because so far, after watching hundreds and hundreds of his programmes, I've never seen one dog fail under his guidance.
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are right also, there is no way they would show clips where a dog was recoiling or yelping in terror.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree actually. I've seen a great many clips where dogs do this ... and seen how he deals with them successfully.
smile.gif


If any one of my dogs was even half as bad as some of the dogs Cesar takes on, then I would have no qualms whatsoever with allowing him to use a prong collar on them. Some of these dogs have little or no chance of ever becoming good doggy citizens if he weren't around to help - and I also don't accept that it is the dog who is as fault, it really all comes down to total numpty owners! Sometimes I watch his programme and totally cringe at how incapable and stupid some people are - it totally blows me away that these people have managed to get themselves to mid-way through life, let alone their dogs
crazy.gif
.

Having watched Cesar for so long, I think he knows better than most of us what will work on any particular dog and if I was having any problems with my dogs, I'd give him carte blanche to teach them correctly, using whatever method he chose, because so far, after watching hundreds and hundreds of his programmes, I've never seen one dog fail under his guidance.
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

You hit the nail on the head there tia, people are relating his training methods to their own pet dog, or a dog with a few behavioural problems, not a full on dangerous scenario, this is why I sometimes get a little frustrated with people views, on being to firm or usinf choke chains, unless you have have to deal with a 12 stone rotti wanting to kill anything in site, then some methods that are not commonly used or looked down upon have to be implied, these dogs can take are machine like, they have strength beyond belief, and can cause damage beyond belief, and half of the conventional tools given to aid a pet with a mild behavioural problem, would not even touch an animal like this.
If you don't want to take the easier option, of pts, or giving up, you have to put the work in, and use the best impliments to try and help reform the animal best you can, without becoming a victim yourself, or an amputee
grin.gif
tongue.gif



sorry mini rant
shocked.gif
blush.gif
(it's a little personal for me) seeing and dealing with these types of problem
blush.gif
on a frequent basis.
 
I'm with Cala and Tia on this one,I have used cesars methods on my 3 dogs, it works and the bit about electric collars makes me laugh, electric fences are used for horses, sheep and cattle and that gives you a real belt as I have touched a few as I am sure alot of you have but a collar on a dog which you can adjust to give a mild shock if that's what you want rather than a more severe one is frowned upon.
 
Yep....I have touched both collar(on highest) and fence....fence shocked and hurt a hell of a lot more
grin.gif
, Im no where near as tough as a rotti/akita/shepherd either
grin.gif
grin.gif
I doubt any human is
smirk.gif
 
I have watched a few of his programmes and have been quite impressed with the way he works. He has the knack of conveying the skills of body language and leadership in an easily understood way - I noticed that our daughter was able to increase our dogs respect for her after watching a couple of the programmes.

He does state that he 'rehabilitates dogs' and trains owners, rather than 'training dogs'. Most of the dogs I have seen on the programmes have pre-existing problems caused by bad management in the past. So whilst I don't think things like prong collars should be needed in the general training of a well-brought up dog (where positive reinforcement is usually all that is needed) I can see why he might need to use them occasionally where the other options open to the dog look bleak.

I have noticed in discussions on the way he works that there seems to be two sides of the argument - the Cesar Milan way vs positive reinforcement (especially clicker training). I don't actually think the two are mutually exclusive! I have trained my current dog almost exclusively using positive reinforcement, but I still think that Cesar's methods are very useful. I thought the list of rules that another user posted above are very valid!

I actually think much of his approach is linked to using positive body language and that is definitely the message that my daughter took from his programmes. Our dog would pull on the lead with her (but not with me and my OH), but if we told my daughter to walk like Cesar, the dog automatically stopping pulling!
 
What really gets me is how often he has to explain to numpty owners, who have what ought to be a perfectly ordinary pet dog, that dogs need exercise. There is one show where some idiot with minis (possibly Shitzus from memory) is surprised that they won't find 5 minutes walking too much of a strain.

How he keeps his patience with some of those - words fail
crazy.gif
 

He has the whitest teeth I have ever seen!!!
grin.gif


I like his methods but think the programme skims over the surface too much and we don't see the "in-depth" training that must take place to achieve the results he does. I think this could be detrimental to some and makes the programme a bit repetitive.

I have got his book and will, one day, find the time to read it
smirk.gif
 
I have to say I think he is fantastic. (and I'm agreeing with the yum yum eye-candy people as well LOL).

I am particularly impressed by not just his skills with the dogs and with the owners but his ability to imitate dogs in different moods - excitable, agressive, assertive etc. He really has got it down perfectly and that sort of understanding and control of body language can only be learnt through years of study and practice and dedication.

I have also seen him with some nasty scratches and bites after managing difficult dogs but he doesn't pay them any attention, he is remains totaly focussed on interacting with the dog.

I've used some of his basic techniques on my dogs and they work amazingly quickly. My younger dog in particular has been predominately trained in a 'ceasar millan' style and she heels without a lead just off my voice etc... Really admire him and what he does.
 
I like most of his methods and his teaching to owners. I dont like his harsh use of choke collars though or electric collars, which I really think are unnecessary. He also uses the alpha roll(fights the dog into a 'submissive' position on its back) to establish dominance. If I was a dog I would wonder what on earth the human was doing to me and I can imagine some sensitive dogs to be scared by this. I dont think the alpha roll has a place in establishing pack leader.

I do admire his calmness and patience and has been brilliant in helping owners to understand their dogs and enjoy them.
 
He's fantastic and very very cute. But beside the phworr bit I've never seen him hurt a dog and have seen him do loads of good stuff for dogs that would probably otherwise end up being PTS. I'm already engrossed in the new series and the work he did the other night I watched with a ex working lab who had been caught up in hurricane Katrina and was a nervous wreck around sounds was inspiring.
grin.gif
 
Well, I still disagree with prong collars
smile.gif
, but I do agree with most other comments...he IS rather good to look at and he does have a great way with dogs. I have to say I found him a fantastic "role model" when dealing with my adolescent male rottie - he was HARD work. Most of all I learnt how to just be around Bailey, ie calm, assertive etc - I have never in my life had to be that way around a dog, but this boy is so different..he really did pick up on that and responded brilliantly. Guy is a guru
smile.gif
 
I think he's bloody marvellous! I've been watching and following what he does and it's made a huge difference to Alf who had severe problems with lead aggression and generally not being very nice out of the house. I do lots of things that he recommends, like ignoring them when I come in and always being pack leader but I draw the line at prong collars as I don't see the need but I guess if I was that desperate and it helped...........?
 
Having read what you all have said, I can understand some of your points, such as Breeze_mum with her Bailey, but I must say, that if he's that good, then he shouldn't need a prong collar.
I don't agree with that "Oh, but the owners uses a prong", well then he should put on a better collar, for as long as he trains the dog. I don't mind properly used electric collars, because if they work, the dog should learn fairly quick. But as far as I've heard, people tend to continue using their prong collars.

And I'm sorry, but if a dog has such bad mentality that you have to use a prong collar to keep it under control or PTS, then I'm sorry, but as some of you also like to point out, there's lots of dogs out there, in need of a new home.

In Sweden there's an 9 year old girl with rheumatism, her handicap/service-dog is a ROTTWEILER!!! She doesn't need a prong collar, her bodylanguage is definitely not dominant, and the dog doesn't care one bit, because it has to much work to do...


from Sweden.
smile.gif
 
At the risk ofsounding like a total hippie , I think it's more about energy than dominant language, plus he reckons that fulfilling a dogs desire to work makes it more balanced and rotties were certainly working dogs! So he's got an answer for everything
tongue.gif
 
I just can't think what sort of job would suit Bailey best. No point exploring the retail industry as that is imploding, I can't see him teaching - however, I think he would love to be chief food tester at Naturediet!
 
As I said previously, I am currently reading one of his books and his main message seems to be to be calm-assertive, recognise the in-bred characteristics of your dog (e.g. a sporting dog has the in-bred genes to point, retrieve,etc.)He also talks about pit bulls, saying how people always presume these to be fighting dogs and not suitable for pets, but shows how it is not the dogs fault, but how they are trained and the expectations on the dog from the owner. He maintains that the use of prong collars, e collars and the like are permissable IN THE RIGHT HANDS. The analogy being that any tool can become a weapon if mis-used such as whip and spurs on a horse. These can be seen to be used in a cruel fashion.
The further I read on, the more I am understanding his philosophy.
I have had rescue dogs and fortunately I have always managed to gain their confidence and turn them into well balanced happy dogs.It has not always been easy. My x breed for instance took almost 2 years, but patience and consistency has paid off.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top