Problem breeder

[Clippy]

I bought a lovely mare which was bred by my friend, with the intention of breeding from her. Previous breeding history is that she was covered as a 6 year old and not in foal. When she was scanned, the vet could find nothing wrong with her, she just wasn't in foal and she wasn't covered again.

Fast forward 2 years and this mare is now mine. After monitoring her for 3 weeks and no sign of a season, I took her for a scan which revealed fluid in her uterus. The vet PG'd her to hopefully help her to clear the fluid and bring her into season as well as swabbing her. That was a week ago and she's not looking like coming into season.

She's a beautifully bred, well put together mare who was injured and denied a riding career and at 8 years old, surely she can produce a foal? I don't want to get my hopes up, does this sound like a lost cause?

 

[JanetGeorge]

No - not a lost cause - but you'll need to do everything right. When she was scanned - and the vet PG'd her - did she have a Corpus Luteum - and what size follicle?? If the answer to the first is no - and to the second - less than a 25mm follicle - then PG WON'T work!

To give you an idea:

I have 3 young mares with foals at foot that are being 'difficult'! Scanned last Wednesday, no CL, no follicle over 15mm (for any of them.) So no use PG'ing! Scanned all 3 yesterday, 2 had a CL - but no follicle over 20mm, 1 had a 40mm follicle, start of oedema - so we started teasing her today! I've had more trouble tracking cycles this year that I EVER remember having before - goodness knows why - maybe it's because it's been so dry and lack of good green grass! You have to monitor very closely.

Unless you have a total tart of a mare - or a handy stallion - it is VERY unreliable trying to spot seasons. We find some mares will need 20 minutes solid teasing before they'll show a dicky bird!

We had one on Monday which was scanned with a 50mm follicle, already starting to change shape (suggesting imminent ovulation). She showed VERY little to the stallion when teased - and without the scan I would have waited. As it was, SHE waited until the stallion was 3' behind her to show properly - and she was covered.

 

[Waterborn]

I was told by my vet that, after numerous attempts (and a £2.5k vet bill) , I may never get my mare in foal. That was my foundation mare and, having sent her to a stud in Somerset, she has since had 3 foals.

 

[Clippy]

Thanks for the replies which I found helpful.

My mare was scanned last tuesday and there were follicles but not large ones. The vet said the jab should help her clear the fluid herself and i'm waiting to hear what he says about the swab. I really like this mare and am praying the next time she's scanned there's some advancement.

I do believe this mare to be discreet when in season so regular scanning is on the cards as I can't be missing her. I'll take her every day to the vets if I have to, if only she'll start to cycle.

Is it usual for an 8 year old mare to have fluid in her uterus? What other steps can be taken to help her?

 

[GinnieRedwings]

My ISH mare was covered naturally the "old fashioned way" (i.e. 3 times, every other day for the duration of the time she was prepared to stand for the stallion) on my first attempt to get her in foal, and she wasn't. It is only after changing stallions and the stud owners operating a "walk in" natural service (with the idea that if timed right, only one cover should be necessary) that I had to have her scanned several times, that we realised that her actual cycle was out of synch with her behaviour. Basically she stopped standing for the stallion about 3 days before her follicles were of any size to speak of and therefore covering her early in her season, when she was the most up for it behaviourally, was pointless.

Having established that, I took her to the stallion on the last day I knew she would stand, with a 24mm follicle & a shot of Chorulon. Amazingly, she took first time. Next foal, we AId and as we didn't have to worry about her standing for any stallion, were able to inseminate with a much bigger follicle and again she took first time.

The point I am trying to make is that my mare would have certainly been labelled a difficult breeder, had I persisted with the natural covering without scanning, but understanding her cycling patterns and working with those has shown her to be very fertile and indeed very easy to get in foal.

Don't give up & good luck X

PS: A good equine repro vet really helps too. How's your vet's credentials in this respect?

 

[Clippy]

Thanks for the positive input. My vet does a lot of general equine work rather than specialise in stud work

 

[vicijp]

Doesn't sound like a lost cause at all.
Would have gone down the flushing out/oxytocin route to clean her out first, rather than trying to bring her straight into season.
Unless you know the mare inside out always scan.

 

[Clippy]

I'm taking her for another scan tomorrow and the results of the culture should be available so i'm crossing everything there's some advancement

 

[Marchell]

Personally as you are already aware that you may have a 'difficult' breeder I would opt for a good equine repro vet or you may well be wasting your money.

Pg'ing in the hope of flushing her out seems odd to me? Also the fact that she is retaining fluid is not a great start so she needs to have a wash out and antibiotics so that you start with a clean slate. Unless the uterine enviroment is clean you will never get your mare in foal.

As for silent seasons - a good stallion is worth his weight in Gold and can teach mare handlers a thing or two. When we stood five stallions at stud we used to tease every other day and despite being very observant and 'swithched on' as to changes in mares behaviour there was usually one mare every year that bucked the trend. One stallion would always "tell us" today's the day despite no demonstrative signs from the mare. Initially we went with our instincts and erred on the side of caution however we soon learnt to trust him and he was always right.
RIP Dewin

 

[eventrider23]

I would have thought to encourage the loss of fluid that the vet would be injecting with oxytocin as well instead of PG but may be wrong.

It is definitely worth having a decent repro vet. Have one livery mare that is now in foal but took 2 goes as on the first go, whilst all looked good prior to AI, she threw up loads and loads of fluid and even though flushed out she still didn't take. Second time round, even though she didn't throw up as much fluid we didn't take any chances and did everything that could be done to stop any building up, flushing her out 6 hours after AI, caslicking her, etc and voila she was in foal but could easily have been dubbed a 'problem' mare if vets were not on the ball.

 

[starryeyes]

Hi don't panic i'm in the same boat at the min with one of my mares. The 12year old maiden took 1st time & had obviously read all the text books, whilst the 7year old maiden is being a bloody pain!!!

1st time we ai'd she was pg'd to come into season, was inseminated & she didn't ovulate even with ovuplant when we expected. We didn't think the semen was good quality either so no baby. She threw up a small amount of fluid but nothing of note so usual dose of oxytocin.

2nd cycle the actual ai went according to plan but she threw up a large amount of fluid. Lots of flushing, antibiotics & oxytocin had it clear day after ovulation. Fine we thought....still not in foal (also to different stallion)

We're now about to ai tomorrow on her 3rd cycle (original stallion). She has been swabbed & biopsy all clear but we have noticed she throws up a lot of odema when in season. We now have a plan for lots of antibiotics, oxytocin, steroids & washouts. Unfortuataley my vets is an hours drive so plenty of going backwards and forwards but i certainly haven't given up hope.

My mare also had another pg with her ovuplant today. evidently trials have shown it can help to make the womb contract & clear fluid before the ovulate.

I'm a first time breeder & my mare is also injured but a good baby candidate who will be for me to keep. Don't give up yet but do invest in a good repro vet even if it means plenty of travelling (just be prepared for the cost!!)

 

[Marchell]

Oxytocin for fluid expulsion is normal but PG'ing alone would not cause fluid expulsion unless the mare actually responds to it as Janet said.

Fluid will only be expelled if the cervix is open ie mare in season.

If she wasn't scanned then you've probably wasted your money.

Have a read of Jonathan F. Pycock

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/breeding/maidenmares-112.shtml