Problem horses - is it actually even worth it?

[FanyDuChamp]

In my opinion yes. Cappy was so bad he had his professional [as in they were all fully apprenticed rather than a young lass who likes ponies] grooms terrified of him. He reared, struck out, bit and was generally dangerous to be around. He threw his weight around when ever he did not get his own way and he is 17-3hh so that is a lot of horse!

I knew some of his reputation when I bought and we quickly discovered the rest. I had him checked over and given a full "MOT" turned out he had a permanent migraine style of pain because his polls were so badly out.Unfortunately by then he had worked out that he could get away with murder so it took a lot of retraining and patience. I also put him on Coligone as he has gut issues. He finally settled and is now a perfect gentleman. He is as good as gold and has become a firm favourite on the yard.

So yes it can be worth it. Keep looking for what is causing this behaviour and I believe you will find a cause and be able to work out a solution. No horse wants to be bad or vicious, it is not in their natures they are herd animals and as such need to be on good terms with their herd members. But your mare sounds tome like she wants some leadership or she will lead. She sounds very dominant so will need firm but fair leadership from you. If you do not believe horses have a sense of fairness come visit Cappy he will show you.

 

[scarymare]

OP, is she a straightforward ride? If she's just a cow on the floor but once you're on is a safe, useful ride you might find selling her the best bet. I actually don't mind unpleasant horses if they'll do a job.

Actually she is a nice hack as long as you take a whip. She won't go in the school (naps) as soon as you ask anything of her. She wouldn't go for my instructor (BHSI) at all. I just don't think I could live with myself if I sold her. She even tries to 'rush' the mounting block so you are level with the cow kick and has also butted me off the block with her head and neck (sounds funny but puts you very close to the violence )

 

[scarymare]

You dont like the horse. The horse doesnt like you. You are better off without each other IMHO

LOL, yes fair comment. She no longer whinnies and trots up when she sees me, that's for sure. Bit uncalled for to kick me though I would say.

 

[scarymare]

In my opinion yes. Cappy was so bad he had his professional [as in they were all fully apprenticed rather than a young lass who likes ponies] grooms terrified of him. He reared, struck out, bit and was generally dangerous to be around. He threw his weight around when ever he did not get his own way and he is 17-3hh so that is a lot of horse!

I knew some of his reputation when I bought and we quickly discovered the rest. I had him checked over and given a full "MOT" turned out he had a permanent migraine style of pain because his polls were so badly out.Unfortunately by then he had worked out that he could get away with murder so it took a lot of retraining and patience. I also put him on Coligone as he has gut issues. He finally settled and is now a perfect gentleman. He is as good as gold and has become a firm favourite on the yard.

So yes it can be worth it. Keep looking for what is causing this behaviour and I believe you will find a cause and be able to work out a solution. No horse wants to be bad or vicious, it is not in their natures they are herd animals and as such need to be on good terms with their herd members. But your mare sounds tome like she wants some leadership or she will lead. She sounds very dominant so will need firm but fair leadership from you. If you do not believe horses have a sense of fairness come visit Cappy he will show you.

And the worst thing is that I think you are right. Despite the 5 stage by FEI vet despite 2 of the country's top physio's despite everything. But the question still stands though. Is it actually worth carrying on. She would be none the wiser, I could soften the blow with old owner by a 'slip in the field' story. Do I need to spend time, emotion and energy on a currently dangerous horse which may never come right or should I concentrate on the lovely undamaged ones I already have? Hmm, may need to re-evaluate in the spring when its better weather.

 

[AmyMay]

If the horse is as bad as you say, I doubt the blood bank would take it.

 

[Flame_]

Musing - and being really harsh I think

I have a problem horse, it was free to a good home. It weaves. It cowkicks when I get on, it kicked me 3 days ago when I straightened its rug, its a moody mare and I have already spent a couple of grand trying to fix it. Mrs B knows (not in a good way) the peeps who sold it to me. When I go up to it in the field to pat it, I get ears back and nashing teeth. It's a b**** to lead and I often have to get out my chifney. It's (sorry she's) clearly damaged goods.

Yup, run of the mill, riding club, long in the back, not really straight behind dodgy passport with no breeding record.

Actually she is a nice hack as long as you take a whip. She won't go in the school (naps) as soon as you ask anything of her. She wouldn't go for my instructor (BHSI) at all. I just don't think I could live with myself if I sold her. She even tries to 'rush' the mounting block so you are level with the cow kick and has also butted me off the block with her head and neck (sounds funny but puts you very close to the violence )

It doesn't sound like she's got enough going for her to make tolerating the issues worth it tbh. You'd need to be lucky and find someone to love her. Is she very sound? Maybe she'd enjoy endurance, or hunting, say? She's got to be good at something (usually more than hacking) to not be easily replaceable (except in the sentimental sense, IYSWIM?)

 

[Lulup]

If she's a nice hack and you have ruled out physical probems then I'd say its a bit harsh to PTS as she is fit and able to do a job. I have no issue with having a horse destroyed because it is a danger to itself/others but why are you so adamant that you won't let somebody else take a chance on her?

Bear in mind that all the problem horses that have been turned around were only able to do so because they were fortunate enough to have been give that chance - you don't like her and it sounds as though you should def part company as you are beginning to take it personally (I know it's hard not to) but if you up front and open about her attitude (and use a site like project horses) then you could at least give her the opportunity of finding her Mr/Mrs Right before you PTS?

 

[Rileyboy]

Nothing good in life is ever free

 

[Cortez]

Is it worth it? Sometimes, but not always. I have been reluctantly involved in a couple of rescues (a total of seven Spanish horses, six here in Ireland and 1 from the UK), five have had the fairytale ending and are leading lovely, normal lives with doting new owners. Two are still with me, one still a work in progress but getting better, and the last one I have just, after nearly six years of trying everything, given up on. He will never be a "normal" horse, will always stress and be anxious around people and will continue to throw in a completely new craziness just when you think you've solved the last one. It's not fair to the horse, and it's not fair to the rider/handler to persist in trying to "fix" him.

 

[YasandCrystal]

LOL, yes fair comment. She no longer whinnies and trots up when she sees me, that's for sure. Bit uncalled for to kick me though I would say.

I would bet that she has an issue though - and to her mind you 'ain't listening'.
You see I am the sort of weirdo that would go the whole nine yards and have a communication done and an iridology report.

It actually cost me £115 to get an iridology report done, a communication and a shiatsu session that all told me that my horse had a problem with his r/h upper hind. He said he found ridden work too hard. The shiatsu therapist cried when she touched him - she felt his pain and the abuse he had suffered.

It took Sue Dyson a week to find SI dysfunction (r/h side ) - that cost £3800.00. I got LOU on my horse. He is coming into work now though

 

[FanyDuChamp]

And the worst thing is that I think you are right. Despite the 5 stage by FEI vet despite 2 of the country's top physio's despite everything. But the question still stands though. Is it actually worth carrying on. She would be none the wiser, I could soften the blow with old owner by a 'slip in the field' story. Do I need to spend time, emotion and energy on a currently dangerous horse which may never come right or should I concentrate on the lovely undamaged ones I already have? Hmm, may need to re-evaluate in the spring when its better weather.

Imho no not for you but it could be for someone else.

In the meantime why not just have regular, but very simple,contact with her? Take it right back and try just reintroducing you to her.Very slow quiet strokes and few to start with. If she goes for you don't let her bite but don't reward the behaviour by walking away. Every time she does good praise her, reinforce the behaviour. It takes time, a lot of time. Think about a calmer, Relax Me works, or maybe try a supplement that works on the gut, Coligone is amazing.I'd also look at getting her hormones checked, she may have a cyst and that can cause huge problems with mares, she sure as hell sounds like she has PMS.

When you bought her you saw something in her. I guarantee that is still there. She sounds like a scared and possibly in pain animal. Hope she improves.

 

[Inthemud]

For most of us, riding is a hobby, meant to be fun.

If you are not enjoying working with her, don't do it. Life is too short.

 

[marmalade76]

For me, no, particularly now I have children. When I was young, horse mad and horseless, I probably would have tolerated just about anything, but now I can afford to be choosey and I think most sensible people would be the of the same view.

I have horses for fun and part of the fun is spending time with them and if they're not good company then where's the fun? Whatever I have now also needs to be reasonably safe for my children to be around and in that respect I am very lucky, my animals seem to quite like them and are as safe around them as you could reasonably expect horses/ponies to be.

 

[wench]

Excatly what tests have you had done...

 

[abailey]

Musing - and being really harsh I think

I have a problem horse, it was free to a good home. It weaves. It cow-kicks when I get on, it kicked me 3 days ago when I straightened its rug, its a moody mare and I have already spent a couple of grand trying to fix it. Mrs B knows (not in a good way) the peeps who sold it to me. When I go up to it in the field to pat it, I get ears back and nashing teeth. It's a b**** to lead and I often have to get out my chifney. It's (sorry she's) clearly damaged goods.

With the price of hay, the price of horses and the unnecessary risk, I'm wondering how far to take this one. Snow and ice means no riding for last 3 weeks but I'm taking my other one to a clinic tomorrow anyhow - no worries. I seriously doubt I'll ever be able to take this one out anywhere and certainly not even thinking of this if it does unpredictable stuff like the kicking out when rug straightening. Will need to start again with mounting. Seriously wondering if persevering is worth it or to look at bloodbank or PTS. Not being melodramatic either, just practical. Certainly not going to pass this one on to anybody.

Assassination attempts understood.

I'm guessing you knew of her quirks when you took on a 'free' horse? This horse sounds like it needs to be with a natural horsemanship owner ... I've had rearers/bargers/kickers etc and they usually just need the 'leadership' issue addressing.

As you took her on surely its now your responsibility to try to find someone with the right skill-set for this horse NOT have her PTS as she doesn't suit you. I fully appreciate that you have spent time and a great deal of money on her but you hear constantly of 'nightmare' horses that come right.

I'd give her the opportunity to 'come right' with fully disclosing her every quirk to an appropriate expert.

Wishing her (and you) the best of luck. x

 

[carthorse]

I would not pass her on. It sounds like you have done the best for her and as she is a difficult horse for some unknown reason she could end up with going from sale to sale eventually. You need to decide if to keep her or pts

 

[ridefast]

Well yes she could be a happy hacker, she could do a discipline, somebody could love her and bring her around.
Are you being inundated with offers from people who are desperate to fix her?
We are all aware of the amount of perfectly normal, sane, healthy horses that are being abandoned at the moment. If there's no homes for them will there be a home for yours? It would be nice to have the fairytale ending but like you've already said, she won't know. She's not standing in the field thinking of the future. And I do think that some horses have deep psychological issues that they just can never overcome. I have met horses perfectly healthy, best lifestyle, natural horsemanship home, regular physio etc etc but such deep psychological scars that they are still unpredictable now. PTS is not a bad home, and it could be that she's in pain but you never get to the root of it, and she carries on being in pain.
Horses are for pleasure. Doesn't sound like this one is giving you much pleasure.

 

[lastchancer]

I'm guessing you knew of her quirks when you took on a 'free' horse? This horse sounds like it needs to be with a natural horsemanship owner ... I've had rearers/bargers/kickers etc and they usually just need the 'leadership' issue addressing.

As you took her on surely its now your responsibility to try to find someone with the right skill-set for this horse NOT have her PTS as she doesn't suit you. I fully appreciate that you have spent time and a great deal of money on her but you hear constantly of 'nightmare' horses that come right.

I'd give her the opportunity to 'come right' with fully disclosing her every quirk to an appropriate expert.

Wishing her (and you) the best of luck. x

Like there's a que of 'appropriate experts' waiting to take this type of horse on...
Sorry but a lot of the Natural Horsemanship types are the last people i'd sell a cranky/in pain horse to. Owner should either sort this mare out herself, keep it as a pet or PTS. In this case I'd be tempted to PTS, she gave it a chance, it hasn't worked out - sounds like the mare has some pain or mental issue and until she learns to talk she may not be able to communicate what the problem is.
There's hundreds of sound good natured horses desperate for a good home, why persevere with a bad 'un.

Good luck what ever you decide OP, it so hard knowing when to throw the towel in.

 

[Kokopelli]

IMO they're worth it if they're talented, sounds a bit harsh but I wouldn't want to spend money and risk myself for something thatc never going to jump over 3ft.

Currently riding a complete bitch of a horse but will pop 1.40 with her eyes shut so I'm not complaining.

 

[Billabongchick]

Hmm, this is a difficult one. When I worked in New Zealand I was initially quite shocked about how quickly they will 'dog tucker' a bad horse. From a breeding point of view though it does mean that the ones with temperament problems or comformation issues are taken out of the system so to speak. And as my friend said when I was having problems with various share horses that turned out to have behavioural issues (I was an out of practice but experienced rider looking for something simple for a couple of days a week) 'Why would you want to ride something dangerous when there are so many nice horses out there you could ride'. Sometimes it just isn't worth it and at the end of the day could you cope if you gave her away and she injured or worse killed somebody. I know you get the rare stories where the bad pennies turn good but sometimes in the UK we can be a little bit too sentimental at times where this sort of issue is concerned.

On the flip side of the coin I had one horse who seemed to initially hate me. He gave me 3 months of hell and the feeling was becoming mutual but I perservered (had to as he was one of my string of 13 I looked after). However, one day it was just like he gave in trying to annoy me and decided co-operation was the easiest route and he was great thereafter. He wasn't violent though just grumpy as hell!

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Really tough isn't it? And the amount of people who suggest this that and the other. The ones that say well after spending 10k at the vet we have it sorted. Not everyone has that kind of money to spend on investigation. And then of course you get, well you shouldn't own a horse. Then the natural horsemanship suggestions. Magic herbal cures and so on. Because nowadays unless you've mortgaged the house you just really haven't tried and you're a failure. Maybe she'd thrive somewhere else. But who really knows.

So I'm sure now you even feel like a bigger failure with this thread. Everyone knows how to make her right. You aren't trying hard enough. I put up with a lot with horses we get in but they have to try back. Straightening a rug and nearly getting kicked whenever it suits her is not fun. It's also downright dangerous. Maybe there is something going on. But sometimes from past experiences they don't always come right. People forget this when prescribing all their well meaning advice. For every story of the horse someone has changed, they exclude failures. Some horses do not forgive as easy. But very few people will acknowledge this or even believe it possible. They think it can all be made better by one thing you've yet to spend your money. We always here the successful outcomes. Not so much the failures of some very things mentioned here in combinations.

So I'd sit down with people you trust in real life and discuss options. PTS is not the worst thing and maybe it paves the way for a horse that gets to have a future where he/she can shine.

As far as getting after the OP for some of her wording, I'm sure we're all guilty of such things in frustration. At any rate sorry OP. it's not easy what your deciding.

Terri

 

[lastchancer]

^^^very good post above^^^

 

[Littlelegs]

I quite like problem horses, I love watching them turn around & come right. And I've had some for peanuts too. However I always make sure I stay within my capabilities, financial & physical. I get the impression you took her on thinking it would be easy & now you've realised she isn't you resent the cost & also her. Which as already said she no doubt senses & is responding accordingly. I'm not saying I'm fine with horses kicking me, but if she doesn't know any better its a fairly natural reaction.

 

[Emilieu]

Op i bet if you posted asking if you should sell the horse on you'd have got loads of responses saying pts

 

[ladyt25]

Why did you take this mare on? Did you know these were her issues? Why did the previous owner not want her yet still seems to care about her that much she likes to contact you to find out how she's going? Doesn't sound like a horse that deserves to be PTS to me, just sounds like you and her are not a good match.

If there is nothing physically wrong with her and she is a decent enough hack I don't see any reason why you can't discuss with the owner (you said you got her for free so officially I assume you don't technically own her?) about finding someone else to take her on, someone who may understand her issues and actually be able to get through to her? I do believe some human/horse combinations are just not right.

With regards to you saying when you walk up to her in the field all you get is ears back etc. Is this when you are catching her or are you just going up to her to pet her? If the latter then i would just leave her alone and don't put yourself in to her space if it is not something she's happy with. If you are catching her then I would at least try and get her to come to you and not the other way round.

Some horses are very funny about their personal space and we shouldn't put ourselves in that space if it is not wanted. My sister's 1st pony was an aggressive swine - he seemed to hate young children (handy!) and would actually charge at her in the field, teeth bared. We found it humourous at the time and just thought he was vile tempered. Looking back, he was probably in some discomfort and once on board he was pretty good.

Personally I don't think I would be putting this mare down. I took on a 'problem pony' (not that i knew it!) 18 years ago -still have him now, we just came to an understanding!

 

[AengusOg]

I think you are not far from me. Why don't you ask me to help you with your mare? I'm positive I could help you improve your relationship.

 

[PandorasJar]

Yes but I like the mare and behaviour is great now. She can be an utter cow but never dangerous but will protect me from the other horses and has stopped throwing her weight round and trying to change.
I'd be looking pain routes if I were you, but equally as someone else has said, they pick up on feelings so much. I certainly wouldn't be riding this horse until I'd got good handling on ground.

Why would you not pass on? Mine was given to me as dangerous and no one wanted her at 8 nothing done in years as walked on two feet everywhere, had been lunged but she was in control. She's never done that with me and behaves simply like an unhandled youngster - and not a difficult one. I was the first person to ignore her history Nd start with a clean slate as if she'd never done anything. I spent months just chilling in her field, scratches etc before I knew she relaxed seeing me rather than squared up. She's now a dream to work with.

 

[fidleyspromise]

I would not pass her on. It sounds like you have done the best for her and as she is a difficult horse for some unknown reason she could end up with going from sale to sale eventually. You need to decide if to keep her or pts

Really tough isn't it? And the amount of people who suggest this that and the other. The ones that say well after spending 10k at the vet we have it sorted. Not everyone has that kind of money to spend on investigation. And then of course you get, well you shouldn't own a horse. Then the natural horsemanship suggestions. Magic herbal cures and so on. Because nowadays unless you've mortgaged the house you just really haven't tried and you're a failure. Maybe she'd thrive somewhere else. But who really knows.

So I'm sure now you even feel like a bigger failure with this thread. Everyone knows how to make her right. You aren't trying hard enough. I put up with a lot with horses we get in but they have to try back. Straightening a rug and nearly getting kicked whenever it suits her is not fun. It's also downright dangerous. Maybe there is something going on. But sometimes from past experiences they don't always come right. People forget this when prescribing all their well meaning advice. For every story of the horse someone has changed, they exclude failures. Some horses do not forgive as easy. But very few people will acknowledge this or even believe it possible. They think it can all be made better by one thing you've yet to spend your money. We always here the successful outcomes. Not so much the failures of some very things mentioned here in combinations.

So I'd sit down with people you trust in real life and discuss options. PTS is not the worst thing and maybe it paves the way for a horse that gets to have a future where he/she can shine.

As far as getting after the OP for some of her wording, I'm sure we're all guilty of such things in frustration. At any rate sorry OP. it's not easy what your deciding.

Terri

I agree with both of these.
Its not an easy choice for you, either way.

AengusOg - I'm guessing it may come down to money. I was delighted with the PM you sent me a while ago, but I can't justify the cost/unable to get others to have a clinic/unable to transport. Your PM helped a lot to get me and pony on track though, so thank you.

 

[puss]

Id say yes i bought mine felt sorry for him well the first 6 months he kept trying to kill me cow kicking biting rearing at me giving me both barrels in the field two years later if i asked him to walk though fire he would he come on so far and trusts me so much anything scary if i say its ok he just walk past it we still have our moments but far less now. And i did hate him the first six months and he knew it as soon as i started likeing him things changed between us.

 

[AengusOg]

I'll do it for free.

It's the season of goodwill.

Thank you FP, I'm pleased to hear it.