Problem longlining

[mickygem]

As the title says, we have a just turned four year old pony, bought as not started but we quickly realised pony had been started, he's fine with tack, fab lunging, been leaned over, sat on walked under saddle etc., all reasonably uneventful, however, we did all of this after having to skip the longlines as the first time we tried him he was petrified, turned himself inside out, spun round and in a matter seconds tied himself up in a knot.

I spoke with previous owner who then vaguely mentioned that she'd had a problem longlining, so I'm guessing he did the same and she was perhaps not equipped to get him through it, so sold him on (lesson learnt :/ ).

We have considered skipping longlining but the lady who is breaking him for me (she's had lots previous experience but never encountered a longlining problem so severe) is keen to try again as she said he's got no mouth when she sat on him.

Our plan is to start from scratch with a breaking bit with keys, side reins and roller in the stable and go from there. I'm just concerned that he will repeat the old behaviour when the long lines are re introduced.

So my reason for posting is to see if anyone has had a similar experience and if so did you manage to get the pony going without longlining? or did you manage a longlining work around.

Thanks so much in advance

 

[ihatework]

Many roads to Rome and whilst I am a fan of long lining I don't think it is essential.
I'm not sure I'd make a big deal out if re-breaking if the horse is accepting of a rider and can be ridden away. If you are wanting to do some mouthing work from the ground then in hand work with double reins and the human up by their shoulder, or some double lunging.
I actively dislike the breaking bit and side reins in the stable approach.

 

[JillA]

I have never encountered that sort of problem but I have started very many of my home bred youngsters. Ideas that come to mind are either have someone walk at his head while he gets the idea, or lunge (off a cavesson) and add the offside rein so you can gradually introduce a little pressure from it. Either way I wouldn't use a bit in a sensitive mouth until he is happy and willing, too much risk of damage. Dually or cavesson or even a strong headcollar with the reins attached to the brass fittings. Have you checked his mouth/teeth?
As a workaround you can work him in normal reins from the ground, holding the reins under his chin and asking to yield to either side

 

[spacefaer]

I think you should ask someone who is more up to date with modern techniques in starting young horses to help you with yours.

Breaking bits with keys?? Side reins and roller in the stable - these went out with the ark.
It is generally thought that the keys tend to make them very fussy in the mouth and why would you want to strap a young horse down in a stable? Potentially very dangerous.

It is possible to give a young horse a mouth without long reining - plenty of people do. It is also possible to wreck a horse's mouth by longreining, particularly if they are scared or fighting it.

I am a fan of longreining - but there are other ways of going about it, and I wouldn't go near a pony that has been messed up by someone else's incompetence with any thought of trying to do it.

Please do some research before allowing these outdated techniques to be used on your pony.

 

[mickygem]

Thank so much for your quick replies, alarm bells are ringing loud and clear, thank you for feedback re mouthing bit/side reins/roller etc. all taken on board hence my post. It's a sensitive subject to broach with my backing lady but obviously I am realising the old school way has been replaced by safer kinder methods.

 

[be positive]

Many roads to Rome and whilst I am a fan of long lining I don't think it is essential.
I'm not sure I'd make a big deal out if re-breaking if the horse is accepting of a rider and can be ridden away. If you are wanting to do some mouthing work from the ground then in hand work with double reins and the human up by their shoulder, or some double lunging.
I actively dislike the breaking bit and side reins in the stable approach.

I have started many some have come with issues and you learn to be flexible, part of having experience is to know when to leave well alone, long lining has its place but is not essential to put a mouth on them and I have missed it out with a few over the years if they really found it too much to cope with.
I have never used the side reins, key bit route, I am old school yet have moved with the times, there is plenty you can do without long reining or forcing an issue, this one would be ridden away now and the mouth put on by good hands on top.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Throw the breaking bit with keys out please!! They are old fashioned and not necessary unless you like having a horse that chomps and plays with the bit.

The first thing you need to do is desensitise the horse to everything he doesn't like about long lining. In small bites. Even if you never want to long line him, having a horse that can freak out in the way you describe, is a dangerous ride. Work through it now would be my advice.

I would also be wary that he needs a lot more work and time before you consider him to be ridden away. He sounds like the sort of horse who could be quite shut down and unreactive until something sets him off (like long lining!). I've had one of these types and it all seemed so easy to back this horse as if it had done it before. Not sure if it had or not with hind sight but it was the sort of horse you couldn't leave off work and expect to get back on without doing the ground work / leaning over it etc all over again. Just be careful.

 

[DabDab]

Depends how much you want to long rein them in the future.....I have started many youngsters under saddle with so much as a sniff of a long rein, and have never had a problem with 'putting a mouth on them' (whatever that means). I would be seriously concerned by someone claiming to need long reining to establish decent ridden contact - what on earth is she doing with her hands when riding?

Main concern with your pony would be why is an seemingly calm pony suddenly flipping out when long reined?

 

[be positive]

Depends how much you want to long rein them in the future.....I have started many youngsters under saddle with so much as a sniff of a long rein, and have never had a problem with 'putting a mouth on them' (whatever that means). I would be seriously concerned by someone claiming to need long reining to establish decent ridden contact - what on earth is she doing with her hands when riding?

Main concern with your pony would be why is an seemingly calm pony suddenly flipping out when long reined?

I wonder whether there was an unsuccessful attempt to break to drive, if something went majorly wrong then it could cause him to remember whereas the riding side of things have not caused an issue, ideally he would be able to get over it but at this stage I would be working on what he does have confidence with.
I agree that a pony that has a panic button is not great but if it is for good reason then it may be possible for him to lead a normal life without ever needing to long rein or introduce it very gradually alongside bringing him on, I would also get his eyes checked just in case they are restricting his vision which could contribute to the panic.

 

[MissTyc]

I have seen this in ponies who have had a bad driving experience; e.g. one I got from the gypsies a few years ago.

I also have a homebred mare who would not long rein. However she was easy to back and a pleasure ride. She'd be fine with it now I'm sure but I have no need for it now. She lunges nicely and always has. All my other youngsters have taken it in stride and really enjoyed it!

 

[DabDab]

I wonder whether there was an unsuccessful attempt to break to drive, if something went majorly wrong then it could cause him to remember whereas the riding side of things have not caused an issue, ideally he would be able to get over it but at this stage I would be working on what he does have confidence with.
I agree that a pony that has a panic button is not great but if it is for good reason then it may be possible for him to lead a normal life without ever needing to long rein or introduce it very gradually alongside bringing him on, I would also get his eyes checked just in case they are restricting his vision which could contribute to the panic.

Yes that would make absolute sense - particularly so if he's had a scare while hitched. And it would make perfect sense to then go on and sell as an unstated ridden prospect

 

[mickygem]

Thanks all, my gut says stay away from longlining (and I've always had really positive experiences in the past with other horses) the reason for my post was to hopefully get a broad range of feedback, you are all pretty much saying what I was feeling, I have a little breathing space before we get going again (after HOYS with other pony) but I'm now feeling certain I should have a chat with breaker and suggest we proceed from the saddle. I handle the pony a lot and he trusts me (apart from his long reining panic button) but hey if he's had a terrifying experience in the past, I'm more likely to take his side a little as he clearly has a point for his reactio. Hmmm I like the suggestion of feeling both sides of the reins on the ground, I can do this (i'm too heavy to get on him) I'm almost inclined to note in his passport that he should never be longlined as he will hopefully be a child's pony and i've already experienced people leaving "bits of information out" <sighs> Thanks again everyone, your feedback is very much appreciated.

 

[JillA]

I wonder why he is not just ridden away as BP suggests? Sounds as though the person you have sent him to doesn't want to do that, maybe you could find someone more sympathetic to ride him away?

 

[nato]

Assuming you have checked for wolf teeth?

 

[supsup]

If you want to desensitise and work towards tolerating long-lines (not necessarily as part of the breaking/starting process, but more for general education, in your own time), a good place to start is to have a helper walk in front of you while trailing a lunge line, and you leading the horse behind the trailing line. Most horses lose their fear of things if they can follow (or "chase away") the scary item. You can then work up to trailing a longer bit of the lunge line, and leading close enough behind your friend that the line starts to trail next to your horse. Eventually lead with a lunge line trailing from your free hand next to and behind your horse. (If you hold it in your free hand, you can drop it at a moment's notice if necessary).

I would also check if your horse is reactive to anything (lead rope, bandage...) near or around the bum or hind legs, and work to get him comfortable with that. Once he's comfortable with ropes around his bum and legs, and doesn't mind trailing lines, you're probably half-way there.

 

[jules9203]

If its any help I've never longlined my youngsters. I was taught that while I was young enough my hands wouldn't be good enough and when they were good enough I wouldn't be able to keep up. LOL. You don't need to longline.

 

[cundlegreen]

If its any help I've never longlined my youngsters. I was taught that while I was young enough my hands wouldn't be good enough and when they were good enough I wouldn't be able to keep up. LOL. You don't need to longline.

I'm assuming that everybody is talking about driving behind with long reins, or on the circle with the outside rein round the quarters and under the tail? This can cause an extreme reaction if the horse takes off, and the rein tightens up round the quarters.
As I am heavy, all mine are longreined in the danish method, with both reins going through the terrets on a driving roller (although you can use a breaking roller with wither high rings).There is a lot of weight going through the reins to the mouth, and this method is less likely to interfere with the horse, although you still need a lot of feel and be quick on your feet. All mine school like this as under saddle, do figures of eight, and canter transitions very happily, and they stay better balanced without a rider in top interfering. Plus, you can see exactly how they are moving, and work on specific exercises to improve the paces. All my riding and driving horses do this, and they also become very sensitive to voice and body cues, which all helps under saddle.

 

[Orangehorse]

If you want to desensitise and work towards tolerating long-lines (not necessarily as part of the breaking/starting process, but more for general education, in your own time), a good place to start is to have a helper walk in front of you while trailing a lunge line, and you leading the horse behind the trailing line. Most horses lose their fear of things if they can follow (or "chase away") the scary item. You can then work up to trailing a longer bit of the lunge line, and leading close enough behind your friend that the line starts to trail next to your horse. Eventually lead with a lunge line trailing from your free hand next to and behind your horse. (If you hold it in your free hand, you can drop it at a moment's notice if necessary).

I would also check if your horse is reactive to anything (lead rope, bandage...) near or around the bum or hind legs, and work to get him comfortable with that. Once he's comfortable with ropes around his bum and legs, and doesn't mind trailing lines, you're probably half-way there.

This is brilliant advice. If you have a pony that is nervous round trailing things there are all sorts of situations where they can panic - leg straps on rugs (forget to undo one?), dropped reins, etc. etc. so time spent on trying to get over this would be good. Don't forget food as a reward, I know some people don't like it but it can be sometimes a last resort.

I heard of someone long lining and the horse spun round and round and tied himself in knots, he was a kicker too. I know the trainer got him untangled, eventually, but I didn't hear the end of the story. I had a pony that was OK lunging, but I tried with something round his rear (he was very, very reactive and nervous sort) and he was fine in the stable yard and at the end of a lunge lesson but I unfortunately thought he was OK and tried it at the start of a lunge lesson. He bolted and I was pulled over, I managed to keep hold of the lunge rein as he galloped round and round in a circle in a complete panic and I was just thinking that he wouldn't stop until he hit something, like a house wall or car, when he slipped over and slid and I managed to jump to my feet, grab hold of the bridle and unclip the rear strap. Once that was removed he was OK. I didn't have him long enough to work on improving this.

 

[mickygem]

Yes I agree great advice (received with much thanks) unfortunately what you described is very similar to my pony, he was lunging with two lines, then out of the blue he did three quick spins which trussed him up like a turkey in nano seconds, then bolted and flipped himself over, next time we tried, he bolted right away and crashed into a wall, then the last (and final time) he did a repeat of number one and tied himself up in a knot.

If we are to try again, I will make sure NOT to run the lines through stirrups or roller as this is what's trapping him when he panics, so I'm going to attach the outer rein to his cavesson (to start with) and only that so if he panics I can drop the outside rein. Before that I plan to do as suggested and get someone on his off side to walk and talk gradually moving out and then hopefully backwards.

I think it's something that will have to be done over time and probably long after he riding away.

Thanks again everyone, I hope this thread helps others too