Problem purchases - on the increase?

Kallibear said:
Pretty much. Plenty of novice buyers buying themselves far too much horse, usually young, and having issue. Nothing really wrong with the horse, it just needs competant handling and schooling. They then ruin the horse and THEN it's become a problem horse. If it's lucky it'll end up with an experienced owner who will quickly short it out. If it's unlucky it'll end up at a dealers and become worse.

There's this attitude that 'you have to start somewhere', except that most people aren't willing to pay the large amount of money it costs to get that 'start' at a riding school or similar, under instruction. There are VERY few horses suitable for novice owners (plenty are more than suitable for novice riders when owned/ridden/handled regularly by a competant person, but not many that won't start taking the P from a novice). Most of the combo's would be fine with competant handling and outside help, but again that costs money........
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This.ME a novice handler, hence why I volunteer at my RS - see the hard work behind the lessons,understand each horse quirks & why,etc. I have spent £1000s on;; riding lessons, hacks, novice competitions, BHS stage 1 & 2. Also volunteer at RDA & feel I am not competant enough yet to buy my own pony/horse. So many riders in my group lesson say "I wouldnt pay what you pay a week for your lessons & hacks out Im gunna buy one soon, its cheaper" after their 3rd half an hour group lesson& yet they cant untack (wont tack up themselves like i do) - i have to help them!! Alot of other horse owners have said to me i am "one in a million" as will not rush to buy a horse for my son to learn to ride on & happy hacker for me! I have the determination to wait 2 years & learn what i can to become competant BEfore buying.I jump, hack out, do dressage competitions & school every week so they are novices willin to gain more expereince and wait! Dont get why people wont wait & understand horses first & understand the hard work behind the scenes of their lessons.
I am the only adult volunteer at my RS out of alot of adult riders.
 
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I think alot of it has to do with the sueing culture (apologies if htis has already been said). These days people are very fond of demanding you take the horse back or be sued, even if they have only had the horse a matter of days. When we were buyng 30+ years ago, if it wasn't suitable it was either made suitable or sold onto someone who could ride it with no worries. I remember a 12.2 we bought when i was 7, he had been kicked out the local riding school for being to sharp, we bought him, he threw me off a few times, i cried got back on and was made to ride him, he turned out to be the best 12.2 in the County and stood me in good stead for my future horses. He made me a rider and made me believe i could do it.

I also agree with regards to what riding schools teach children now. Due to the vast overheads and with H&S having gone mad they are so limited that these children never learn to ride properly. We used to have many a fall in our riding lessons and it just be part of learning to ride. No one bothered, you were brushed down, and put back on. My friends daughter who is the same age as mine, has been in a riding school for 2 years, she is at the same level as mine who has been learning to ride for 6 weeks on her own pony. Mine has fallen off half a dozen times and got back on every time. She has a lovely leg postion, no flapping like my friends daughter who has only learnt to ride on very safe riding shcool ponies who probably know where each letter in the school is! It is teaching her nothing at all, and has probably lulled her mum in to thinking she is far better than she actually is! Not the riding schools fault it is the climate we live in.
 
The horse which I unofficially share with my friend A was a typical impulse buy. She went with some friend's to buy some tack and found out that the person was selling the horse. So horse was ridden by friend's as A had not beeb riding long and had no formal lessons. Result horse was purchased. Coblet was just a youngster and was poorly schooled so within two months A had become quite anxious about riding him. He's well behaved with her on the ground but once she's riding him he takes the proverbial all the time. Bucks spooks grazing and generally uncooperative. While she was away I regularly rode him and although he was somewhat rude with me on the ground at first once on his back I have no problems. I had at one point got quite worried as the horse I was riding was well behaved (apart from grazing and jamming me in gates while hed eat trees) I'd been learning for the same time period as A but I'd been having lessons weekly and did very little hacking. So I'd wondered if I was just too dumb to identify when he misbehaved. Horse's behaviour however I now know reflected our individual experiences. A was used to handling horses on the ground whereas I had barely even led or tacked up my own horses before. I was initially cautious about leading and grooming and general handling but once on his back I knew what to do so he'd not play me up.
There are other problems with him..possibly a rig and he's bitten one of the other geldings quite badly as the mare is now in season and he's gotten very possessive. A was told he'd had two owners in his life..she found out later he'd had five, and he was just 5years old.
I suspect that this story reflects the experience of a lot of first time buyers when their desire to ride on a limited budget results in their getting the green or problem horse. Its tough on the buyer but its also tough for the horse.
I watch from the sidelines and try to gain as much experience as I can in caring for riding and understanding horses. Novice owners are a great opportunity for uncaring sellers. Caveat emptor indeed.
 
Affone said:
It's been a miserable few weeks for me, my daughter and my friends and family who have been very supportive. I just wanted to say it's not always 'numpty' purchasers who suffer with post-purchase issues. :).

Anyone had a similar experience?
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How awful for you and your daughter. You did more checks than most, and still it goes wrong.

Sounds as though he is an absolute star, i just hope you can get him sound.

Has the vet given you an indication of cost & recovery time ?

In relation to the OPs question, i just find people want something for nothing these days. Expect to pay peanuts, but want a schoolmaster that will take their children onto the teams within a week of owning them.

Whats wrong with getting a new horse/pony and taking things slowly ? Building a bond by just being with them and having fun, rather than expectations of red rossettes within weeks

All too much too soon in my opinion.

I do hope the owners of the 3 year old coloured takes the good advice given on here and turns the poor horse away for a year. Another too much too soon case. Very sad. If only i had a spare stable, i would have gladly taken that one on.
 
Last week, another livery at my yard and I were analogising learning to ride and handle horses to learning a language -- which it is, really. If you spent a lot of time with horses, especially as a kid, you'll have more fluency in that language, thus you can communicate with horses as well as "read" any potential new purchase. Trouble is that a lot of people -- at least around the sort of yard I seem to always keep my horse at -- come into horses later in life. They may have loved them and taken a few lessons as a kid, but only as adults can they now afford to live the dream and get a horse of their own. Yet they have only a rudimentary understanding, if that, of the language and run into all sorts of behaviour problems due to their inability to communicate with their horse.

I also think this isn't a new issue, but we get to hear about it a lot more due to the nature of internet forums. I mean, the term "horse dealer" has historically been synonymous with being shady and somewhat unscrupulous. Anyway, prior to the internet, would people be more likely to look for professional help in their area? Whereas now they say "I know. He rears and spins but I'm going to ask a bunch of random strangers on the internet what to do about it." I don't know the answer to that; I certainly had a bit of a bumpy settling in process with my first two horses but there were trainers at the stable who helped me sort it out. It would not have occurred to me to ask the internet. But this was in the late 90s, so while there were forums, I don't think they were quite as popular as they are now.
 
Gloria Victous said:
Not problem purchases really, just stupid buyers.
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I have to say I agree with this...

I viewed a horse on Sunday, took a sensible friend, got on with him really well, however wasnt going to buy him based on that visit alone, and i believe many people would have done... I went back the next day to be faced with a horse that had, had a personality transplant (cue bolting and some serious bucking) and I walked away... confident that he had probably been worked into the ground prior to our visit the previous day and/or doped... I honestly think the seller thought i was going to make them an offer on the first visit...
 
Paulag said:
Can I take Bree back? I've had her 6 weeks and she's still afraid of the killer deer? :D

Paula
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Can't you just put blinkers on her so she can't see them. That plus a very strong bit and various martingaley thingymebobs should soon sort your problem our. :)
 
Also think there a lot of people who just see a bargain buy, don't look too closely and then are surprised that there safe would be low level eventer is green or has problems. Interesting conversation with one of the vets on our yard. So for eventers, everyone wants a well mannered pref bay gelding, no bigger than 16.2' no older than 8, good eventing experience, up at novice level with a good track record, sound and easy to ride. see lots of wanted ads for that sort, guess how much he sees these types going for...between £30-£50k. Safe, sound, kind and well mannered Hens teeth. Shocked the YO as that would describe her best horse who she wants to keep!

So, looking back. How much did we learn by working for lessons? By riding anything we could? And by most importantly, accepting we never know everything and never will..
 
lizziegoos said:
This.ME a novice handler, hence why I volunteer at my RS - see the hard work behind the lessons,understand each horse quirks & why,etc. I have spent £1000s on;; riding lessons, hacks, novice competitions, BHS stage 1 & 2. Also volunteer at RDA & feel I am not competant enough yet to buy my own pony/horse. So many riders in my group lesson say "I wouldnt pay what you pay a week for your lessons & hacks out Im gunna buy one soon, its cheaper" after their 3rd half an hour group lesson& I have the determination to wait 2 years & learn what i can to become competant BEfore buying.I jump, hack out, do dressage competitions & school every week so they are novices willin to gain more expereince and wait! Dont get why people wont wait & understand horses first & understand the hard work behind the scenes of their lessons.
I am the only adult volunteer at my RS out of alot of adult riders.
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Same here and also the same route I'm taking with lessons and gaining experience before I even consider owning my own ..
 
Great thread :)

I would agree with what most people say. More novices = more problems.

I was 15 when I was allowed to get a horse, I asked my RI to help, and somehow ended up with a 3 year old TB. I soon realized I'd been over-horsed, and I can only assume my RI told me to buy him so she could ride him.

2 years later we have worked through numerous issues, and I now have a great horse, but it's not been plain sailing and I think 99% of people, if they had bought him under the same circumstances I did, would have sold him on.
 
I think its expectations being unrealistic both from sellers and buyers.

We've been looking for a suitable pony for my son, I'm not expecting RDA but I am expecting a suitable lead rein/first pony and by that I mean it doesn't bite, buck, rear, bomb off at the first opportunity and is happy to be groomed without kicking. Some of the ponies that we have seen listed as a lead-rein/first pony have to be honest been no where near, more second ponies for a keen child, great ponies in themselves but not suitable for the purpose of sale or the market aimed at. Waste of my time and theirs.

I don't think the sellers are always being dishonest I just don't think they remember what they were looking for when their children were learning to ride.

From a buyers point of view though I do think parents misjudge the level of their child's ability, a perfectly good pony for an enthusiastic confident little rider won't suit a child whose used to riding school or kick along ponies if they lack confidence themselves resulting in a child that refuses to ride anymore. I know my son needs a pretty much bombproof confidence giver but my niece whose ability is pretty much the same so would need a pony in the same selling group would suit a pony with a bit of ummph. Really do think parents need to be more honest about their child's ability and search for a pony accordingly.
 
lizziegoos said:
This.ME a novice handler, hence why I volunteer at my RS - see the hard work behind the lessons,understand each horse quirks & why,etc. I have spent £1000s on;; riding lessons, hacks, novice competitions, BHS stage 1 & 2. Also volunteer at RDA & feel I am not competant enough yet to buy my own pony/horse. So many riders in my group lesson say "I wouldnt pay what you pay a week for your lessons & hacks out Im gunna buy one soon, its cheaper" after their 3rd half an hour group lesson& yet they cant untack (wont tack up themselves like i do) - i have to help them!! Alot of other horse owners have said to me i am "one in a million" as will not rush to buy a horse for my son to learn to ride on & happy hacker for me! I have the determination to wait 2 years & learn what i can to become competant BEfore buying.I jump, hack out, do dressage competitions & school every week so they are novices willin to gain more expereince and wait! Dont get why people wont wait & understand horses first & understand the hard work behind the scenes of their lessons.
I am the only adult volunteer at my RS out of alot of adult riders.
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Good on you and you are very fortunate to find a RS that allows you too progress all to often riders are kept at walk or trot too long on a different horse every time with no progression of riding technique beyond getting on and off and hacking no jumping or local comps etc - I suspect for some it's a wish to break free and not be a weekly cash cow. I recently discovered this was happening to my niece (parents chose the RS and didnt ask advice)when she said she wanted to give up riding and it was clear that she had been trotting for a year and was bored. She had no understanding of leg aids etc as had never been taught that!
 
horseloaner said:
I think its expectations being unrealistic both from sellers and buyers.

We've been looking for a suitable pony for my son, I'm not expecting RDA but I am expecting a suitable lead rein/first pony and by that I mean it doesn't bite, buck, rear, bomb off at the first opportunity and is happy to be groomed without kicking. Some of the ponies that we have seen listed as a lead-rein/first pony have to be honest been no where near, more second ponies for a keen child, great ponies in themselves but not suitable for the purpose of sale or the market aimed at. Waste of my time and theirs.

I don't think the sellers are always being dishonest I just don't think they remember what they were looking for when their children were learning to ride.

From a buyers point of view though I do think parents misjudge the level of their child's ability, a perfectly good pony for an enthusiastic confident little rider won't suit a child whose used to riding school or kick along ponies if they lack confidence themselves resulting in a child that refuses to ride anymore. I know my son needs a pretty much bombproof confidence giver but my niece whose ability is pretty much the same so would need a pony in the same selling group would suit a pony with a bit of ummph. Really do think parents need to be more honest about their child's ability and search for a pony accordingly.
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Have you tried the pony club website ?

You can get references from the DC too.

Learn from my mistakes - go for an oldie, with references from the PC. Usually worth their weight in gold.
 
Hedwards said:
I have to say I agree with this...

I viewed a horse on Sunday, took a sensible friend, got on with him really well, however wasnt going to buy him based on that visit alone, and i believe many people would have done... I went back the next day to be faced with a horse that had, had a personality transplant (cue bolting and some serious bucking) and I walked away... confident that he had probably been worked into the ground prior to our visit the previous day and/or doped... I honestly think the seller thought i was going to make them an offer on the first visit...
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Here's another problem. Widespread advertising means you snooze, you lose. What if that horse had been perfect and someone else had been in between your two visits and put a deposit down? Its not too bad if the horse is just down the road and you can go twice within 48 hours but viewing horses a couple of hours away, if you fanny about going back over and over when you can fit it in days apart at a time, someone else will step in and snap up the horse. I don't think you can take your time over buying an advertised horse tbh, unless you're prepared to miss out on the horse. I think its flipping hard buying a good horse.

Incidentally, I have a very good horse, which I fully credit to luck and an honest seller, not my own psychic powers of knowing things about a horse that I do not believe people can tell from one or two trial visits.
 
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Flame_ said:
Here's another problem. Widespread advertising means you snooze, you lose. What if that horse had been perfect and someone else had been in between your two visits and put a deposit down? Its not too bad if the horse is just down the road and you can go twice within 48 hours but viewing horses a couple of hours away, if you fanny about going back over and over when you can fit it in days apart at a time, someone else will step in and snap up the horse. I don't think you can take your time over buying an advertised horse tbh, unless you're prepared to miss out on the horse. I think its flipping hard buying a good horse.

Incidentally, I have a very good horse, which I fully credit to luck and an honest seller, not my own psychic powers of knowing things about a horse that I do not believe people can tell from one or two trial visits.
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I went to see him 5 times and still bought a rearer:(
 
Flame_ said:
Here's another problem. Widespread advertising means you snooze, you lose. What if that horse had been perfect and someone else had been in between your two visits and put a deposit down? Its not too bad if the horse is just down the road and you can go twice within 48 hours but viewing horses a couple of hours away, if you fanny about going back over and over when you can fit it in days apart at a time, someone else will step in and snap up the horse. I don't think you can take your time over buying an advertised horse tbh, unless you're prepared to miss out on the horse. I think its flipping hard buying a good horse.

Incidentally, I have a very good horse, which I fully credit to luck and an honest seller, not my own psychic powers of knowing things about a horse that I do not believe people can tell from one or two trial visits.
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Or at least you think thats what might happen if you dont make a quick decision!

But I think you make a good point, even if you go a couple of times, with a trainer, check out the sellers and get a full vetting with x rays and bloods it is still a bit of a punt, especially if you are buying a youngster.
 
I've found all your posts interesting, there's one on the yard whose daughter bought her a horse based purely on looks and the fact she was a haflinger. Put simply after speaking to the owner/staff etc she's too much horse for a not confident novice. She's brilliant with a more experienced and confident rider.


I've also known one person to send a pony back after a couple of days simply for not being 'too fast enough". Pony was lovely and a nice quiet ride.

I think a lot of it is down to expectations, research, and experience :)
 
I think its the costs coming down, people buy and sell cheap and DIY livery and equipment costs are quite low, barefoot is a popular option and suddenly a pony or horse comes in to the 'reasonably affordable' category. I have recently bought two Section A ponies which together cost considerably less than my pedigree kitten

People who havent thought it through come unstuck and sell the animal on to someone who comes unstuck and so habits get worse and combined with a novice rider its not surprising that things go wrong

In saying that sometimes even stuff you have done before gets harder depending on the personality of the pony/horse involved, I have dealt with youngsters before but have struggled with one of my ponies who is nervous/taking the mick but I have the commitment and will pay for the assistance I need to sort this out

I dont think people understand when buying cheap youngsters that their formative years are so very important and its not all about grooming them and cuddling them
 
canteron said:
my beautiful girl took 10 years for us to really gett a strong bond, but the journey I have been through with her had been wonderful/terrible/exhilarating/disappointing/scary/life enhancing depending on which day you catch me?
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Think this is another part of the problem! People treat their horse as a pet and forget horses were bred to be working animals. The RS I went to would pick up a load of horses in the morning, they were ridden by two members of staff to assess their suitability and were carrying paying customers the next day. They had happy confident horses who knew where they stood from day one.
No professional is going to mess around for years like that.
 
baran said:
Think this is another part of the problem! People treat their horse as a pet and forget horses were bred to be working animals. The RS I went to would pick up a load of horses in the morning, they were ridden by two members of staff to assess their suitability and were carrying paying customers the next day. They had happy confident horses who knew where they stood from day one.
No professional is going to mess around for years like that.
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I aggree horses need a leader not a best friend in time they can have a friend who is a leader horse prefer to know where they stand and most don't turely like being dominant its hard work .
 
Goldenstar said:
I aggree horses need a leader not a best friend in time they can have a friend who is a leader horse prefer to know where they stand and most don't turely like being dominant its hard work .
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If you can't trust your rider to be boss, then you can't trust Them when something scary happens.
 
TrasaM said:
Can't you just put blinkers on her so she can't see them. That plus a very strong bit and various martingaley thingymebobs should soon sort your problem our. :)
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I was thinking of screaming and falling off, refusing to get back on and paying someone else to do that. :rolleyes:

Paula
 
Paulag said:
If you can't trust your rider to be boss, then you can't trust Them when something scary happens.
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That's it exactly I think horses teach leadership skills so well they respond instinctively to consistent fair leadership.
You can't love your horse to this place you have to lead it ,a bond with a horse is only useful if it's a helpfully one not one going along the lines of oh it's that nervous person who sees all those scary things better keep my eyes wide open or oh heres that softie who lets me push them all over the place.
 
There are a lot of people who simply over horse themselves. Plus the old adage more work less food, rings so true with many of the so called problem horses you come across. One lady I knew, bought a haflinger for her 8 year old daughter, supposed to be quiet etc. Took it home fed it haylage and hard feed, and wondered why it was off its rocker! To be fair, she listened, changed to hay, andcut the feed down, upped the work, and hey presto, nice pony again.
My pony is currently out on loan to a 10 year old. His last home was with someone who was about 14. He was returned after a year, because they felt he had arthritis, and this was why he was stopping, and it wasn't fair to him. He was overweight, and his feet were long, which didn't help. Girl is now having probles with her new horse, and they have had to admit its her riding, not my pony. They have said this to his current mum, I found it highly entertaining when I heard, as he spends most of his time polishing his halo!
 
People have far less common sense these days. Horses have become too much of a fashion accessory rather than being used. Not enough basic laid back ponies around for kids to have fun on. Too many idiot breeders breeding ponies looking like minature horses and with temprements that just fizz up.
 
I have met several people (yes inexperienced) who have been told by their "experienced advisor or the seller (generally dealer) that they are better off with a young/green horse. Sad thing is that the seller/advisor I don't think are trying to pull the wool over their eyes I actually think they believe it!!! Apparently an older schoolmaster will soon catch on that their new owner is novicey and will behave badly because of that. Their green/only knows how to go in a straight line youngster will not realise that and so they will behave better and have less problems!!!

It is actually scary that there are professionals out there that can live with themselves giving such poor advice :(
 
galaxy said:
I have met several people (yes inexperienced) who have been told by their "experienced advisor or the seller (generally dealer) that they are better off with a young/green horse. Sad thing is that the seller/advisor I don't think are trying to pull the wool over their eyes I actually think they believe it!!! Apparently an older schoolmaster will soon catch on that their new owner is novicey and will behave badly because of that. Their green/only knows how to go in a straight line youngster will not realise that and so they will behave better and have less problems!!!

It is actually scary that there are professionals out there that can live with themselves giving such poor advice :(
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That's something along the lines of what I got told. And also "you'll grow together" - er, yes. but at the detriment of us both! Luckily for me it's worked out well, because I could ride, and I could sit to a rearing 4 year old TB, but it's not been easy.
 
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