Problem with collie after sending dog away to trainer.

[Patterdale]

So we have a 2 year old sheepdog, who's been here since she was a puppy. She was bought to be a working sheepdog but I also planned to do some agility with her after losing my agility dog in a car accident a few years before.
She has always been a bit 'nervy' typical of the breed, but I did basic training (sit stay instant down etc) with her which she enjoyed. She was always brilliant to train and enjoyed learning new things.

When she was around a year old we sent her away to be trained as a sheepdog to a recommended trainer.
She was away for around 6 weeks but came back a different dog.
She was fully trained (come by, away, walk on etc) but if she made a mistake or got something wrong she would completely fall apart.
If you lifted a crook she would cringe away and show you her belly.
In short, and I don't say this lightly - I think the trainer consistently beat her up. The result is a dog who is so terrified of doing wrong that she freezes, completely forgets the job in hand and just runs wildly.
For example, if you said 'come by' and she went away, and you said 'come BY!' where the other dogs would just correct themselves, she will panic and go deaf.
When she's calm and working well she is brilliant, but the second anything goes wrong, that's it.
She's improved slightly with lots of love and patience but I'm concerned she'll always be like this now

SO - at the moment there isn't much sheep work to do, so I thought I'd start taking her to agility classes so she can do something fun and hopefully enjoy training again.

But here's my problem. I've been trying to do some preliminary training before the first class, just jumping over some of the show jump fillers, but it is not going well.
She takes absolutely no joy in any part of it, she cringes round the jumps and then steps over and shows me her belly. Or she goes round and looks terrified. All because its some kind of training I think, as she's fine the rest of the time.
I'm trying to be as jolly as I can, I've been giving her treats when she gets it right, and very slowly she's improving, but she still looks at me like I'm sticking pins in her.

I want to continue as I hope that she'll find it fun once it clicks. But am I being a bit optimistic? I feel awful when she looks so sad but I just thought that it might help her to see training as being fun again.

Any thoughts? Anyone ever had a dog like this? Any ideas how I can help her?

Thanks very much, and sorry for the essay

 

[Superhot]

How very sad that you put your faith in someone, and they seem to have abused it...has anyone else experienced similar with this particular trainer?
When you're trying to teach her agility, are you doing it on your own, one on one, or is she in a group/class situation? She might relax more if she had other canine company. Have you tried clicker training her, or indeed, doing a little Ttouch to help her relax?

 

[JFTDWS]

Can you fool her into thinking it isn't training? Run around over the jumps and encourage her to chase you and play with her over them? Once she associates the kit and jumping etc with fun, you can then start to get her going over by herself and do the "training" side.

 

[Patterdale]

How very sad that you put your faith in someone, and they seem to have abused it...has anyone else experienced similar with this particular trainer?
When you're trying to teach her agility, are you doing it on your own, one on one, or is she in a group/class situation? She might relax more if she had other canine company. Have you tried clicker training her, or indeed, doing a little Ttouch to help her relax?

She's just in the field at home. The dogs all live free-range so sometimes the others come to watch but sometimes not. First class is on Monday.

Can you fool her into thinking it isn't training? Run around over the jumps and encourage her to chase you and play with her over them? Once she associates the kit and jumping etc with fun, you can then start to get her going over by herself and do the "training" side.

Lol I did try that and she just lay there with a scandalised look on her face while I ran crazily round the jumps grinning like a madman
Will try and rope the other dogs in though and try and get them all 'playing' round the jumps instead of training, good idea to try and make it a game before trying to actually 'teach' her.

 

[Dobiegirl]

You say she was always nervy which is typical of the breed, BC are not always nervy, I do think its a big assumption on your part that the trainer has beaten 7tons of s*** out of her. I think because she is the nervy type the training and being away from home was just too much for her. Did you get progress reports from the trainer? did you go see her in training? I think all you can do now is build her confidence, dont put any pressure on her at all, make everything a game and just take her for walks and get her to chill out.

 

[Patterdale]

You say she was always nervy which is typical of the breed, BC are not always nervy, I do think its a big assumption on your part that the trainer has beaten 7tons of s*** out of her. I think because she is the nervy type the training and being away from home was just too much for her. Did you get progress reports from the trainer? did you go see her in training? I think all you can do now is build her confidence, dont put any pressure on her at all, make everything a game and just take her for walks and get her to chill out.

What I mean is, all dogs have different personalities regardless of breed, and she has always been more sensitive/soft iyswim. We've had (and have now!) BCs who are completely the opposite, so I wasn't just making assumptions based on the breed
Plus, like I say, I wouldn't go making wild claims like that without being absolutely sure. I'm not going to start an essay on it here though as that's not in question for me at all, what to do about it is the question.
It is over a year ago now since she came back and although she improved loads, it's just now that I'm trying to teach her something new again that she's gone backwards
Any tips would be great

She lives a very stress free lifestyle, most of the dogs live outside completely free 24/7 (unless they're in season) and they sleep together in a pack, outside if its warm or in a barn if its not. So I never really walk her as such - but any of them are free to come on hacks or if I take the pram out. She also gets lots more attention than the others as I know she's a bit more delicate.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

When trying to train a few jumps, have you tried the ice cream lids with treats on?

On an agility class that I've been to, they had lots of such plastic lids, that we put behind/after the jumps, tunnels etc. Then we showed the dog that we put a treat on the lid, went back to them and simply said "Go ahead". So in the beginning, all the focus wasn't actually on doing the agility itself, without it came as a natural way to get to the treat, which they had gotten permission to eat.

We used lids from ice cream boxes like this

The lids are shiny white on the inside, which we put facing upwards, so that the dogs could clearly see the white square waiting for them with their treat.


Might not help unless she is somewhat food orientated, but what treats do you use? Trying something really yummy, which she preferably doesn't usually get, can make some dogs more eager to try and figure out what they need to do, to get the treat. Personally and at the moment, my bitches usually get Starsnack treats, which they really like, but occasionally I might give them pieces of Schmackos or homemade pieces of dried liver, and the later two treats makes them even more eager to try and do what it takes to get those treats.


And if you have another dog that you can do a few jumps with, in front of her, that can sometimes be an eye-opener, to see that the other dog does so and so, and gets lots of yummy treats and makes you really happy, and hopefully she will want to try and mimic the other dogs behaviour = jumping over your jumps, to get the same yummy treats and happy owner.

 

[JFTDWS]

Training is just a game with a useful end point... Or as I see life, games are just training without the drama-llama

TBF, my last collie was a cocky wee monster (but lovely and very trainable), but Wolf's a total wuss, who's default is to drop on his back if you sound vaguely annoyed at him. Some of them just are!

 

[Patterdale]

Finnishlapphund that's a brilliant idea!! Never heard it before!

 

[Dry Rot]

I wonder if it is a "pecking order" thing? She's young and had an established position in the social hierarchy of your "pack". Then she goes away and has to readjust. Now she's back and has to readjust again. Remember that you are also in that social hierarchy, presumably at the top. I'll bet she now finds herself at the very bottom and is just saying, "I'm harmless, please don't eat me!"

Frankly, if she were mine, I'd kennel her alone but where she can see what is going on and only take her out of the kennel at training time by herself. As others have said, keep the training light and easy. If she rolls on her back and shows her belly, I would not make a big deal of it. Either ignore or walk up and give her a stroking, then try to start a brief game if she will allow it, then walk off. If it continues, put her back in the kennel and try again in half an hour. I am a great believer in a little and often, so perhaps a quick visit to her kennel to pet her whenever you are passing -- but strictly limit the freedom so that when she gets out she wants to go!

I must say I find this temperament very exasperating and the most difficult to deal with. Give me a wicked bloody minded demon every time! Oh, and if it is a social hierarchy problem, she'll behave like this without any beating. Just a look that she perceives as a threat (even though it's not) might be enough to turn her into a cringing jelly!

Another who thinks it might be an idea to see how she performs with the trainer.

Where's FW when she's needed??

 

[TarrSteps]

I
I must say I find this temperament very exasperating and the most difficult to deal with. Give me a wicked bloody minded demon every time! Oh, and if it is a social hierarchy problem, she'll behave like this without any beating. Just a look that she perceives as a threat (even though it's not) might be enough to turn her into a cringing jelly!

Similar with horses - it's always easier to deal with the ones who say, "Oh ya? Why should I?"

Have you tried clicker training? I'm in no way an authority or even an educated amateur but I have done a bit with horses and started one of my dogs off with it. Frankly, I kind of wish I hadn't! He can be a bit cringing in his general temperament but the clicker training turned him into an insane experimenter! I taught him to ring a bell to go out and then had to take it away as he would ring it every time he wanted anything and while I know you're supposed to ignore any undesirable behaviour, we were going mad. Even now, he will run though his behaviours the minute the clicker comes out. I wish I'd kept up more with it, especially when we got a second dog, but life intervened. I would certainly try it again with a shy/nervous type as I've found it works particularly well with that type of horse.

 

[AnotherNewbie]

I taught him to ring a bell to go out and then had to take it away as he would ring it every time he wanted anything

Sorry, brilliant image in my head of a dog lounging on a sofa, bell in his paw, ringing for a biscuit/tummy rub/bum scratch!!

Feel for you OP, must be extremely upsetting and frustrating for you. Hope she does come round and learn to enjoy life again.

 

[Patterdale]

I must say I find this temperament very exasperating and the most difficult to deal with. Give me a wicked bloody minded demon every time!

Another who thinks it might be an idea to see how she performs with the trainer.

Definitely agree with that!!

The trainer came to the farm a few months ago and the dog scarpered and didn't come slinking back until half an hour after the trainer had gone.

I see what you mean about the social hierarchy thing but I really don't think it's that. Apart from anything else, she lived here for almost a year before going off to be trained and, although naturally more sensitive was never scared and never flinched away from anything. She's also never had problems with the other dogs, either before or after going. She's gone away lambing with OH too and being away from home by itself doesn't bother her.

She came to the back door earlier looking bored so I took her out and had a play without trying to ask her to do anything, and she was much better.
I think you're right though Dry Rot (and anyone else who said it!) that little and often is key. 5 mins seems to be enough at the monent!

Thanks for all the tips/views

 

[Dobiegirl]

I take it you didnt go see her progress in training, most trainers like to have the owner there as its as important to train them as the dog.

 

[Patterdale]

I take it you didnt go see her progress in training, most trainers like to have the owner there as its as important to train them as the dog.

No I didn't.
Trainer said not to, as she said it would unsettle the dog. I know now, of course, that this should have ring alarm bells, but unfortunately I didn't then.

 

[TarrSteps]

Sorry, brilliant image in my head of a dog lounging on a sofa, bell in his paw, ringing for a biscuit/tummy rub/bum scratch!! .

You joke! He's a lurcher so that's a pretty accurate image.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I just skimmed the posts but I think DR has hit the nail on the head. I doubt very much the dog has been beaten, the sort of dog that needs "sorted" doesn't turn into a nervous wreck it relishes the fight. It sounds like this bitch is a soft natured type and just submissive. To be perfectly honest, get another one with the right temperament and leave her for the sheep. Agility sheep dogs are jacks of all trades anyway, the two things are not similar at all and it would be a rare thing indeed for a dog to excel at both things. She clearly hasn't the nature for it, and will be happier doing something else.

 

[Dry Rot]

I agree with FW and I'm sorry to say that when considering working dogs, the dog is probably the least expensive part of the equation. Cost out the food, inoculations, vet, training, and your TIME (not to mention frustration!), and the price of a pup is a mere incidental. Cut your losses and start again with the right material.

But I still think it would be worth kennelling her and just taking her out to work just to what happens. The chances are she will be so excited at getting out for that brief training session that she'll forget the nervousness. But then again she might not!