Problems feeding alfalfa... need a new chaff for tb!

[lilym]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

OP is your horse a good doer or does he need weight on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wight wise he's doing well for him, still quite light but mainly lack of muscle, this is him on Monday:

He's not doing much in the way of work at the moment.

[he's not usually out naked in January but we moved yards and he sweated up in the lorry and the only rug available was a h/w so he went out in the nude... and rolled...]

[/ QUOTE ]

For his type, at this time of year I don't think you have much to worry about, I reckon graze -on and speedibeet and a course of pink powder will have him looking fantastic!! A good excercise program will help his muscle development too.

 

[SirenaXVI]

Weight wise he does not look too bad to me, if he is in light work I would feed a grass chop, I prefer Ultra Grass or Just Grass to Graze-on, as Graze-on is dried in a different way to these two and can sometimes smell a little burnt imho. I would add speedibeet and agree that Pink Powder would go down well, if you increase his work load and think he is dropping off, you could add oil to this.

All of the above is slow release energy and should help keep him on an even keel.

 

[teddyt]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea comes from laminitis itself - the dietry cause and consequent pain in the hoof is well researched. The same processes (laminae/supercorium) attacked by toxins become inflamed) produces foot pain (both hoof wall and solar), causing footiness in barefoot horses. Shod horses will suffer in the same way but lameness is masked by shoes (painful soles prevented from touching the ground, plus the circulation in shod hooves is severely compromised so fewer toxins get into the hoof to attack the laminae).

I don't know of any research specific to barefoot horses and grass intake but there has been much research into the processes causing laminitis and associated hoof pain. For barefoot horses the proof is anecdotal but has been proven again and again - put certain horses on grass and they beccome footy, often within 24/48 hours. Take those same horses off grass and they'll come sound just as rapidly. It's a logical outcome from what we know about laminitis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laminitis is caused by a sugar or starch overload though, which sets off toxins in the gut and a consequent inflammmatory cascade. In some horses a small amount of grass is sufficient to do this because of insulin resistance/too fat/poor hoof balance/wrong diet etc are also contributory factors. so a horse gets a handful of grass or extra sugar and that is blamed as the sole cause.

I think problems also come because alot of the grass that people keep horses on is unsuitable because it is fast growing, high sugar grass designed for maximum milk and meat yield for food animals. Added to that alot of people feed cereal mixes to horses doing light work or nothing and lots of feeds are covered in mollasses and the diet is much higher in sugar than is natural for the horse. I read a post the other day where people were gleefully boasting how quick their horse ate a likit. i cringed! half a kg of pure sugar in 2 minutes!

In a 'normal' healthy horse grass (or sugar) will not cause footiness IF it isnt at an unnaturally high level. I personally dont believe that horses need a sugar/grass free diet however i also believe that too many people feed too much mollasses, cereals and unsuitable grass and this is the problem. I would never feed my horses course mix, likits or mollichaff and the grass they graze is specifically grown to be low sugar. I have some shod and many unshod and none are footy!

Sorry to hijack your post OP!

 

[AmyMay]

Think the horse looks cracking, actually - and certainly not the condition score you've given him.

If you're that worried about his weight, pop a rug on to keep him warm and dry.

 

[Sooty]

I used soya oil (try to avoid cod liver oil as it is not from a vegetable source), then moved on to Baileys Outshine, which is a high oil supplement and is so much easier to feed! I only give him a spoonful though, not the recommended amount if you are using it as a balancer.

 

[Sooty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like alfafa for horses; it is a legume not a grass, and doesn't suit quite a few of them. For non-heating weight gain try oil, and for chaff something like Happy Hoof is good. Speedibeet is good stuff though. It's often a bit trial and error finding a feeding regime that works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happy hoof contains alfalfa too.......If you think your horse really is intolerant to alfalfa -some are most are not, then feed a pure dried grass product. Alfalfa is a good feed for the majority of horses being much easier to digest than many cereal based diets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eeek! So it has! Blimey... In our case it is more a case of protein levels; alfafa is high protein and they just don't need it. Thank you for that.

 

[Sooty]

He looks fine to me!

Another vote for Pink Powder btw.

 

[TGM]

QR: It is interesting reading this post to see how many people have not got a clue what goes into the stuff they feed their horses! Perhaps make it a belated New Year's resolution to actually read the labels on your feedbags or check out the manufacturer's websites! (Unfortunately, not all manufacturers put ingredients on their websites

so you may have to rely on the feed bags).

As for chaff, I don't feed my poor doer any as her feed is mixed with beet, she doesn't bolt her food and she is on ad lib haylage so hardly short of fibre! (Interestingly, her condition actually seems to be better since I dropped the chaff, so I don't think her digestion has been compromised!)

 

[vonno]

Have you considered a complete feed like Primero Equine Total feed? Mine used to go 'nuts' on normal mixes, but have been great on this and all kept good condition. It also works out less expensive, as they do not need a lot of it. A friend on the same yard has a TB which was a bit scatty until she changed him onto this. It has no preservatives and is delivered direct from the mill, but the downside is there is a minimum order of 12 bags.

 

[SirenaXVI]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idea comes from laminitis itself - the dietry cause and consequent pain in the hoof is well researched. The same processes (laminae/supercorium) attacked by toxins become inflamed) produces foot pain (both hoof wall and solar), causing footiness in barefoot horses. Shod horses will suffer in the same way but lameness is masked by shoes (painful soles prevented from touching the ground, plus the circulation in shod hooves is severely compromised so fewer toxins get into the hoof to attack the laminae).

I don't know of any research specific to barefoot horses and grass intake but there has been much research into the processes causing laminitis and associated hoof pain. For barefoot horses the proof is anecdotal but has been proven again and again - put certain horses on grass and they beccome footy, often within 24/48 hours. Take those same horses off grass and they'll come sound just as rapidly. It's a logical outcome from what we know about laminitis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laminitis is caused by a sugar or starch overload though, which sets off toxins in the gut and a consequent inflammmatory cascade. In some horses a small amount of grass is sufficient to do this because of insulin resistance/too fat/poor hoof balance/wrong diet etc are also contributory factors. so a horse gets a handful of grass or extra sugar and that is blamed as the sole cause.

I think problems also come because alot of the grass that people keep horses on is unsuitable because it is fast growing, high sugar grass designed for maximum milk and meat yield for food animals. Added to that alot of people feed cereal mixes to horses doing light work or nothing and lots of feeds are covered in mollasses and the diet is much higher in sugar than is natural for the horse. I read a post the other day where people were gleefully boasting how quick their horse ate a likit. i cringed! half a kg of pure sugar in 2 minutes!

In a 'normal' healthy horse grass (or sugar) will not cause footiness IF it isnt at an unnaturally high level. I personally dont believe that horses need a sugar/grass free diet however i also believe that too many people feed too much mollasses, cereals and unsuitable grass and this is the problem. I would never feed my horses course mix, likits or mollichaff and the grass they graze is specifically grown to be low sugar. I have some shod and many unshod and none are footy!

Sorry to hijack your post OP!

[/ QUOTE ]

Going to hijack too and say I completely agree with this - my horses are shoeless (they just don't need shoes - they are not 'barefoot') I have not had a problem with laminitis in any shape or form.

 

[TGM]

[ QUOTE ]
Alison27 - that is VERY INTERESTING and confirms everything I suspected - that Happy Hoof (Happychaff as you call it) is the worst of the lot despite being approved by the Laminitis Trust. I hope others read this who shot me down in flames when I blamed the Happy Hoof for sending my sugar intolerant pony loopy and got poo pooed by them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happy Chaff is NOT the same as Happy Hoof - Happy Chaff is a completely different product that was discontinued by Spillers in 2007. Happy Hoof itself contains 5% sugar and 4% starch.

 

[SirenaXVI]

[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing what a difference feed can make, especially to those ultra sensitive horses. Your EP will no doubt talk you through everything but in preparation for his shoes coming off you could start to add a magnesium oxide supplement to his feed. Mag Ox aids the breakdown of sugars before they can form toxins which is what causes your horse to react (and will make his feet more sensitive) and is very commonly given to barefoot horses - for some it makes all the difference between sound and footy. Don't spend a fortune on the branded magnesium supplements in the shops - much cheaper to buy from ebay.

It can also be a good idea to give a liver tonic - a healthy liver will expel the toxins before they can cause damage to the feet. Ronfields Remount is a great one.

Without wanting to cast gloom because I think it's great you're trying barefoot with him, you might find it much harder work than other people with less sensitive horses. There are horses that have to be kept off grass altogether - even small amounts of grass can make them footy. You can of course use hoof boots but some people get very disheartened when their horse doesn't grow stronger feet... 90% of the time this is down to being grass intolerant. But it's important to note that simply putting shoes on those sensitive horses does not make them any less sensitive - shoes simply mask the pain. So the ultra sensitive horse who has been footy whilst barefoot may seem 'sound' when the shoes go back on but the problem is still there. His feet will be being attacked by toxins and weakened more and more... which may well be a cause of navicular syndrome. The damage being done is hidden but will have a far greater negative effect further down the line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I simply have to reply to this.

Firstly, most horses in this country are NOT magnesium deficient, the only time they could be is in spring and autumn grass flushes, the potassium in the grass then 'locks in' the magnessium, this is why it is often considered beneficial to feed magnesium to laminitics at that time. Magnesium is essential for the nervious system, but, unless you have a horse on a low fibre and high cereal diet, such as racehorses et al, the horse is VERY UNLIKELY to be magnesium deficient, although I would be the first to admit that there are some horses who need extra as they seem unable to process it in the normal way, which is where magnesium calmers come in.

As for the Barefoot thing, I keep my horses shoeless, they simply don't need shoes, they have very hard feet, I do not employ an EP, I use my normal farrier, this talk of toxins is complete rubbish, if your horse is footy because of toxins, then he has laminitis end of. The toxins originate from an acidic HINDGUT, which can be caused by an over intake of fructans but can also be from other factors such as stress etc. The acidic hindgut becomes 'leaky' and the toxins get into the system triggering laminitis in those horses that are prone to it. The first thing you should do feed wise is settle the hindgut, with fibre and a good probiotic. You call it grass intolerant, I call it laminitic.

Shoes simply MASK the pain? Are you for real? Unless they are impregnated with bute (now there's an idea) that is impossible. The real reason the horse is footy is simple, if you are going to take shoes off a horse, you have to allow at least six months for the foot to adjust - I know I have done it. By removing the shoes you expose more of the foot to the ground, if the horse is worked or kept on a hard surface the sole becomes bruised and sore, if he had shoes on it would not be sore as the foot is raised off the ground. For this reason it is inadvisable to let a flat footed horse go barefoot.


ETS: Sorry OP have hijacked your post again

 

[mrdarcy]

[ QUOTE ]

Laminitis is caused by a sugar or starch overload though, which sets off toxins in the gut and a consequent inflammmatory cascade. In some horses a small amount of grass is sufficient to do this because of insulin resistance/too fat/poor hoof balance/wrong diet etc are also contributory factors. so a horse gets a handful of grass or extra sugar and that is blamed as the sole cause.

I think problems also come because alot of the grass that people keep horses on is unsuitable because it is fast growing, high sugar grass designed for maximum milk and meat yield for food animals. Added to that alot of people feed cereal mixes to horses doing light work or nothing and lots of feeds are covered in mollasses and the diet is much higher in sugar than is natural for the horse. I read a post the other day where people were gleefully boasting how quick their horse ate a likit. i cringed! half a kg of pure sugar in 2 minutes!

In a 'normal' healthy horse grass (or sugar) will not cause footiness IF it isnt at an unnaturally high level. I personally dont believe that horses need a sugar/grass free diet however i also believe that too many people feed too much mollasses, cereals and unsuitable grass and this is the problem. I would never feed my horses course mix, likits or mollichaff and the grass they graze is specifically grown to be low sugar. I have some shod and many unshod and none are footy!

Sorry to hijack your post OP!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're preaching to the converted here. I agree with everything you say. Certainly my horses seem able to be turned out on grass and remain rock crunching yet my friend's horse is one of those that even a couple of hours out on grass make her very uncomfortable. This horse has a lot of other issues (is a rescue case) - so who knows what is going on internally. I think some official research would be really interesting, particularly measuring liver function and blood sugar levels of sensitive v non-sensitive horses on the same grazing.

You sound very lucky in that you grow mixed species, low quality grasses in your fields. Unfortunately most people are stuck with what their livery yard provides and this tends to be heavily fertilized single species grasses that grow lush and sweet because, traditionally, this is what livery clients wanted for their horses. In my area many livery yards are based on former dairy farms and when I pass their fields in the spring it fills me with horror - yet if you talk to most of the horse owners they rave about having loads of lush grass. If you mention the possibility of laminitis they scoff - it's something only fat native ponies get.

I remember that likit post too

I was probably as flabberghasted as you were. Then people wonder why their horses misbehave - people know the affect of fizzy drinks and sweets on small children yet still pump their horses full of sugar and seem oblivious that there will be any adverse affects.

As for the OP who commented on not liking the term barefoot I kind of know what you mean but it is necessary to impress on newcomers that taking the shoes off is often only half the battle. I personally don't like the term unshod because it implies the normal state of affairs is to be shod. Yet no horse was born in shoes! The organisation I trained with in the US, the AANHCP, prefers the term natural hoof care, which I think is the best description but in the UK the term 'natural' with regards to horses is so closely related to the Parelli folk I use barefoot instead to try and distance what I do from Parelli and other stick wavers, crystal healers and horse psychics

 

[Natch]

QR, just to throw yet another option to the OP, what about hay chop? Literally just chopped hay - a few people I know use and swear by it, including an equine nutritionalist and a very old school horseman. They get it unbranded direct from a producer I think.

 

[criso]

Getting a bit off topic but just wanted to comment on grass and livery.
Someone I know of on a yard recently decided to move as the yard will not offer less rich grazing as it "ruins" the fields. I believe their fields are ex dairy and get fertilised!

It makes you wonder who the fields are for, the horses who would benefit from less lush grazing or the humans who want to see rich green grass. Green fields look nice if you want a flash website too!

BTW I posted on that likit post, it wasn't "boasting" when i said mine gets through one in seconds but it is the reason why he doesn't get them anymore.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
It makes you wonder who the fields are for, the horses who would benefit from less lush grazing or the humans who want to see rich green grass. Green fields look nice if you want a flash website too!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but not every owner wants their horse on 'poor' grazing. I certainly don't. And that's the challenges in running a livery yard.

 

[mrdarcy]

[ QUOTE ]

I feel I simply have to reply to this.

Firstly, most horses in this country are NOT magnesium deficient, the only time they could be is in spring and autumn grass flushes, the potassium in the grass then 'locks in' the magnessium, this is why it is often considered beneficial to feed magnesium to laminitics at that time. Magnesium is essential for the nervious system, but, unless you have a horse on a low fibre and high cereal diet, such as racehorses et al, the horse is VERY UNLIKELY to be magnesium deficient, although I would be the first to admit that there are some horses who need extra as they seem unable to process it in the normal way, which is where magnesium calmers come in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again it's anecdotal but experience has shown again and again that particularly for the more sensitive horses daily supplementation with magnesium oxide makes a big difference between being sound on rocky/stony ground and not. It works. I give mag ox to all the horses I have in work. The ones that don't work don't get it.

[ QUOTE ]

As for the Barefoot thing, I keep my horses shoeless, they simply don't need shoes, they have very hard feet, I do not employ an EP, I use my normal farrier, this talk of toxins is complete rubbish, if your horse is footy because of toxins, then he has laminitis end of. The toxins originate from an acidic HINDGUT, which can be caused by an over intake of fructans but can also be from other factors such as stress etc. The acidic hindgut becomes 'leaky' and the toxins get into the system triggering laminitis in those horses that are prone to it. The first thing you should do feed wise is settle the hindgut, with fibre and a good probiotic. You call it grass intolerant, I call it laminitic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree - and is exactly what I posted... if the horse is footy it's down to toxin and he has laminitis, not necessarily a full blown attack, enough to send him into the classic laminitic stance and lameness but in a low grade or sub clinical way. The sad fact is that many horses suffer from repeated low grade laminitis (evidenced by stress rings in hooves or sensitive soles) - which goes unnoticed or is dismissed as something else. The horse has low grade foot pain so starts to nap - he's blamed for misbehaving. Or he just starts to get a bit lazy - again horse gets the blame. Or a touch of bridle lameness or shortened or uneven strides. The body wins the battle and expels the toxins and the horse comes right again, until the next time - 90% of the time the owner will not even have noticed. If you want research then Dr Chris Pollitt is doing lots of work on the subject, as well as Robert Bowker.

[ QUOTE ]

Shoes simply MASK the pain? Are you for real? Unless they are impregnated with bute (now there's an idea) that is impossible. The real reason the horse is footy is simple, if you are going to take shoes off a horse, you have to allow at least six months for the foot to adjust - I know I have done it. By removing the shoes you expose more of the foot to the ground, if the horse is worked or kept on a hard surface the sole becomes bruised and sore, if he had shoes on it would not be sore as the foot is raised off the ground. For this reason it is inadvisable to let a flat footed horse go barefoot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't agree with you here. I took shoes off two of my horses and they were sound barefoot straight away. It can take six months, it can happen straight away. Every horse is different. Flat footed horses are flat footed because of weak underdeveloped hoof structures from being shod and/or because of incorrect diet. Time and again it's been shown that concavity of even the flatest footed of horses improves once the shoes are off, the feet are stimulated by the right kind of work/surfaces and sugar is reduced in the diet as much as possible. One of my friends got a very flat footed TB from racing - it took a while but he now has very concave, well developed and extremely strong feet. He competes endurance and flies over any sort of terrain. He's not alone by any means.

Shoes do mask pain, there's plenty of texts around to support this... again Pollitt, Bowker and the like have written on the subject - a shod hoof is numbed by the non-stimulation of the nerve endings over time. The hoof just can't 'feel' with shoes on. Circulation is also severly compromised in a shod hoof - preventing toxins from actually reaching the laminae. Again look at Bowker and Pollitt's work.

 

[criso]

Sallysmith The place is question has hundreds of acres and many fields so could easily put a few fields aside for the fatties but chooses not to do so.
Agree that if you only have a few fields it is more difficult to accomodate everyone.

 

[alsxx]

Haha I've been on one of these yards!! The YO has a thing for foot long, lush green grass. I had to beg to get him to allow me to section of an area for my fatty to graze down. She grazed it very very short (she was on ad-lib soaked hay before anyone shoots me down!) and he kept muttering on to me about how he hoped it was growing to grow back.....

This place also had many, many fields so again would have been easy to put a field aside for the fatties...

 

[SirenaXVI]

I am familiar with Chris Pollitt's research, after all he was the first to identify that toxins (although they do not yet know which ones) were the prime triggers for laminitis. He also advocates remedial SHOEING, to support the foot and protect the sole.

Flat soles can indeed be genetic, a lot of tb racehorses are flat footed, they received top of the range nutrition and farriery from the get go, but I agree that there are some horses who are flat footed due to bad farriery. Spanish horses have the opposite problem and some are genetically box footed, no amount of nutrition or farriery work will give these horses 'normal' feet, your friend's horse is unusual in this respect.

There is no evidence that supports the fact that a low sugar diet has an effect on the feet of a non laminitic horse. It has an obviously detremental affect on the laminitic but it is nothing to do with hoof quality, it is those toxins again.

 

[teddyt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It makes you wonder who the fields are for, the horses who would benefit from less lush grazing or the humans who want to see rich green grass. Green fields look nice if you want a flash website too!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but not every owner wants their horse on 'poor' grazing. I certainly don't. And that's the challenges in running a livery yard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thread after thread on here are about YO rules. No hay in fields in winter, no electric fencing, no turnout if there is more than 1mm of rain. Most YO are thinking of themselves and not the welfare of the horses. If i can manage my fields to keep everything from an ex-laminitic shetland to full TBs (living out!) then i dont see why others cant. But then my horses come before my inconvenience and hard work.

And before people start saying that im lucky because i have my own land, i would like to say that i have made my own luck and have worked bl**dy hard to be able to have it, with many sacrifices. It cost a fortune to grow appropriate grass and the yearly maintenance costs far more than a livery bill. But i know it is the best way for the welfare and health of my horses and i personally couldnt look after my horses how many people are forced to because of yard rules.