Progressive Earth Vitamin E Confusion?

[indie1282]

Sorry for another Vitamin E question but i am a bit confused with some info from PE regarding the difference between synthetic and natural Vit E. Now i know that if you feed synthetic then you have to double up the dose due to bioavailability but on their web site they say that there is 2000 UI per 5ml scoop of synthetic and 1,105 UI per 5ml scoop of natural. When i questioned why there was more UI in the synthetic they said the below:

'The synthetic vitamin E has a high elemental level per gram of product (50%) and is a heavier product than the natural hence the different amounts per scoop.
This has nothing to do with the bioavailability to the horse, the natural being more bioavailable'

Then i asked:

'So if I needed to feed my horse 5,000 UI of Vitamin E i would need to feed 5 x 5ml of synthetic ( 2,000 UI per measure = 10,000 UI ) as it needs to fed at double the rate due to bioavailability or 5 x 5ml of natural (1,105 UI per measure = 5,000 UI ) ? '

They replied with:

'Yes, you will need to feed double the quantity of synthetic vitamin E to have the same bio available uptake as natural vitamin E'

It may be me being thick ( quite likely!) but i can't work out why i would pay almost double the price for natural when i can feed the same amount in volume i.e 5 x 5ml scoops? i have asked this question to PE but have not heard back yet. Any experts able to help me out here??

 

[Dexter]

I dont know about PE but forage plus works out the cheapest for natural vitamin e powder

 

[indie1282]

I dont know about PE but forage plus works out the cheapest for natural vitamin e powder

Forage Plus is £37.98 for 0.5kg and PE is £30.99 for 0.5kg for natural Vit E

Forage Plus is £18.99 for 0.5kg and PE is £16.99 for 0.5kg for synthetic Vit E

Am i missing something? Is the FP better for some reason? As it isn't cheaper.

 

[criso]

'The synthetic vitamin E has a high elemental level per gram of product (50%) and is a heavier product than the natural hence the different amounts per scoop.

Is it because they are using both volume and weight in their discussion. If as PE say the synthetic is heavier, a 5ml scoop of synthetic will weigh more than the natural so you are getting more by weight in the scoop.

So 500g of the synthetic will not give you as many scoops as the natural, same as you will get more scoops of chaff than nuts out of a 20kg bag.

Not sure if that is the case, just my first thought.

 

[indie1282]

Is it because they are using both volume and weight in their discussion. If as PE say the synthetic is heavier, a 5ml scoop of synthetic will weigh more than the natural so you are getting more by weight in the scoop.

So 500g of the synthetic will not give you as many scoops as the natural, same as you will get more scoops of chaff than nuts out of a 20kg bag.

Not sure if that is the case, just my first thought.

I'm not really sure, i think i'm really thick and cant wort it out! lol.

I did ask if feeding 5 x 5ml of synthetic was the same as feeding 5 x 5ml of natural and they said yes, and i was talking about UI rather than weight - so that's where my confusion comes from...

 

[criso]

Forage Plus is £37.98 for 0.5kg and PE is £30.99 for 0.5kg for natural Vit E

Forage Plus is £18.99 for 0.5kg and PE is £16.99 for 0.5kg for synthetic Vit E

Am i missing something? Is the FP better for some reason? As it isn't cheaper.

Postage costs can make a difference, I sometimes find for bigger orders FP works out cheaper with free postage, with PE they seem to accumulate quite quickly. I once ended up paying nearly £20 for postage with PE for a big order which was split into 2 parcels.

 

[criso]

I'm not really sure, i think i'm really thick and cant wort it out! lol.

I did ask if feeding 5 x 5ml of synthetic was the same as feeding 5 x 5ml of natural and they said yes, and i was talking about UI rather than weight - so that's where my confusion comes from...

Yes but if each 5ml scoop weighs more, then you won't get as many out of a 500g bag.

 

[indie1282]

So the below response is what i got when i asked why i would pay almost double the price for natural when i can feed the same amount in volume i.e 5 x 5ml scoops?

'It is a personal choice, some people prefer to use a natural product than a synthetic one.... .'

 

[Tiddlypom]

I did look into this when I started feeding vit E in 2017.

I can’t remember the actual numbers, but it worked out cheaper to feed FP (8000iu/day) natural Vit E than PE, as the iu per 5ml scoop were different.

OTOH, PE‘s whey protein isolate is cheaper than FP’s, so it does pay to shop around .

 

[Fransurrey]

This is what I use. It's natural and cheaper than PE.

https://www.equestrizone.co.uk/products/h7a91e6a89/2274000037011188

 

[criso]

Found this on the PE site, Natural = 1 x 5 ml scoop supplies approx. 3.25 g of product, synthetic 1 x 5ml scoop supplies approximately 4 g of product so the Natural will last 154 days as opposed to the Synthetic at 125 days if fed at a scoop a day.

 

[quizzie]

This is what I use. It's natural and cheaper than PE.

https://www.equestrizone.co.uk/products/h7a91e6a89/2274000037011188

It is in a dextrose base, and doesn't specify the sugar levels, may not be high enough to be relevant, but worth watching?

 

[indie1282]

Found this on the PE site, Natural = 1 x 5 ml scoop supplies approx. 3.25 g of product, synthetic 1 x 5ml scoop supplies approximately 4 g of product so the Natural will last 154 days as opposed to the Synthetic at 125 days if fed at a scoop a day.

Aha! See i was being thick ;-)

So if i want to feed 5,000UI per day the natural will last 30 days and the synthetic will last 25 days.

 

[P.forpony]

I've recently done the maths on this, can't remember the exact numbers but FP does actually work out cheaper than PE, basically it's more concentrated.

FP is 2000iu per 5ml scoop
PE is 1105iu per 5ml scoop

So I feed 4x FP scoops a day for 8000iu

If I used PE I would have to feed 7 and a bit scoops to get 8000iu so would last just over half as long per 500g pack

 

[criso]

It is in a dextrose base, and doesn't specify the sugar levels, may not be high enough to be relevant, but worth watching?

I would have thought quite high given that by volume you are talking about 2 x 25ml scoops at the maintenance level instead of 1 x 5ml scoop. The 4kg at £45.95 fed at this rate would last 125 days.

 

[criso]

I've recently done the maths on this, can't remember the exact numbers but FP does actually work out cheaper than PE, basically it's more concentrated.

FP is 2000iu per 5ml scoop
PE is 1105iu per 5ml scoop

So I feed 4x FP scoops a day for 8000iu

If I used PE I would have to feed 7 and a bit scoops to get 8000iu so would last just over half as long per 500g pack

I'm not sure that there isn't a difference in how the figures are being presented or adjusted for bioavailability.
FP gives 2000iu per 5ml scoop for both natural and synthetic which is not the case once you adjust for bioavailibilty.

If you zoom into the PE label it gives 250000mg/kg which is the same as 250mg of natural RRR-alpha-tocopherol per gram on the FP site. They say this 250g is equivalent to equivalent to 500 IU per gram

 

[Horsekaren]

Thunderbrooks have started doing a vit e powder, all natural
I’ve swapped to this, works out a bit cheaper.

 

[Dexter]

This is what I use. It's natural and cheaper than PE.

https://www.equestrizone.co.uk/products/h7a91e6a89/2274000037011188

You are feeding 48gms of product to get 2700ius of vitamin e, so you are paying for a lot of fillers. To get 10000ius you would need to feed 178gms a day! It works out more expensive than both PE and FP

 

[ycbm]

It is in a dextrose base, and doesn't specify the sugar levels, may not be high enough to be relevant, but worth watching?

This is what I use. It's natural and cheaper than PE.

https://www.equestrizone.co.uk/products/h7a91e6a89/2274000037011188

It's 48g to deliver 2700iu whereas FP is 5ml (less than 5g) to deliver 2000iu.

Are you sure you've done your sums right on cost? FP at 3000iu a day will last 75+ days and costs less than a 4kg tub of that which will give 2700iu a day for 83 days.

I personally wouldn't want to be feeding 40+g of filler to deliver less than 3000iu of vitamin E

 

[criso]

Thunderbrooks have started doing a vit e powder, all natural
I’ve swapped to this, works out a bit cheaper.

They are £2 cheaper for 500g than PE but their postage is £2, more so evens out.

 

[ycbm]

Please work out cost per 1000iu folks. Different powders have different levels of 1000iu by weight.

The Thunderbrooks one has 373iu per gram, Forageplus is 2000iu in 5ml, which I think is less than 5g because it's a light powder, I'm going to measure it this morning. PE had a lot less than FP last time I looked it up.

Checked, yes, PE only just over 1000iu in 5ml, FP 2000iu in 5ml

ETA FP natural vitamin E 5ml weight 3 grams. That makes it 667iu per gram compared to Thunderbrooks at 373iu, meaning the Thundebrooks is actually much more expensive to feed even though its cheaper by weight. I haven't done all the sums because I have a stock, but I think FP is the cheapest.
.

 

[criso]

Please work out cost per 1000iu folks. Different powders have different levels of 1000iu by weight.

The Thunderbrooks one has 373iu per gram, Forageplus is 2000iu in 5ml, which I think is less than 5g because it's a light powder, I'm going to measure it this morning. PE had a lot less than FP last time I looked it up.

Checked, yes, PE only just over 1000iu in 5ml, FP 2000iu in 5ml
.

It is quite confusing not helped by a key piece of information not being on the PE website but on the packaging.

If you look at the package notes i shared, the PE has 250000mg Natural RRR alpha Tocopherol per kg, FP phrases it as 250g per g. So in terms of active ingredients the same potency and the same compound. Neither use fillers. So in terms of how many grams of active ingredient, you get the same in your 500g bag making PE marginally cheaper.

However there is a difference in how they represent what you get in your scoop. Something is going on in how they are taking into account bioavailability. Both companies are good and i don't think either is trying to mislead, but I think they are looking at the same data in different ways.

Eta scoops are a useful aid for feeding but can be misleading with different densities.

 

[Dexter]

It is quite confusing not helped by a key piece of information not being on the PE website but on the packaging.

If you look at the package notes i shared, the PE has 250000mg Natural RRR alpha Tocopherol per kg, FP phrases it as 250g per g. So in terms of active ingredients the same potency and the same compound. Neither use fillers. So in terms of how many grams of active ingredient, you get the same in your 500g bag making PE marginally cheaper.

However there is a difference in how they represent what you get in your scoop. Something is going on in how they are taking into account bioavailability. Both companies are good and i don't think either is trying to mislead, but I think they are looking at the same data in different ways.

Eta scoops are a useful aid for feeding but can be misleading with different densities.

If you do the sums, FP is the cheapest even inc postage, then PE. The rest are all significantly more expensive. I've used both and theres not a great deal in it, but worked out correctly, FP is definitely cheaper. I think it worked out about £4 a month cheaper from memory, for feeding 6000ius

 

[Fransurrey]

It's 48g to deliver 2700iu whereas FP is 5ml (less than 5g) to deliver 2000iu.

Are you sure you've done your sums right on cost? FP at 3000iu a day will last 75+ days and costs less than a 4kg tub of that which will give 2700iu a day for 83 days.

I personally wouldn't want to be feeding 40+g of filler to deliver less than 3000iu of vitamin E

My bad. I completely forgot that when I bought it it was on offer - I just remembered that it was much cheaper at the time (my email suggests it was because of a short shelf life) and didn't look at price when I added the link! Fair point about filler - I fed it at less than recommended dosage (25 mL scoop), as he already had linseed in there. It was to see if it would improve PSSM symptoms in the winter. Ignore me!

 

[criso]

If you do the sums, FP is the cheapest even inc postage, then PE. The rest are all significantly more expensive. I've used both and theres not a great deal in it, but worked out correctly, FP is definitely cheaper. I think it worked out about £4 a month cheaper from memory, for feeding 6000ius

I don't see that. I can buy 500g of natural RRR Alpha Tocopheral from either. Both deliver 250mg per gram. Neither is using a filler. PE costs 30.99 for 500g, FP costs 37.99 for 500g.

Ignore dosage, volume, scoops etc. my 500g bag will contain 125,000mg in both cases.

 

[ycbm]

I don't see that. I can buy 500g of natural RRR Alpha Tocopheral from either. Both deliver 250mg per gram. Neither is using a filler. PE costs 30.99 for 500g, FP costs 37.99 for 500g.

Ignore dosage, volume, scoops etc. my 500g bag will contain 125,000mg in both cases.

But PE state on their website that a 5ml contains just over 1000iu, where FP has 2000iu in 5ml

For it to be right that PE is the same as FP by weight it would have to weigh half as much and the FP powder is already so light I find that inconceivable.


What's going on?!?

 

[criso]

But PE state on their website that a 5ml contains just over 1000iu, where FP has 2000iu in 5ml

For it to be right that PE is the same as FP by weight it would have to weigh half as much and the FP powder is already so light I find that inconceivable.


What's going on?!?

Basically the 2 pieces of information contradict each other but i would be more likely to go by the amount of active ingredient per kg for working out cost as opposed to the recommended scoop dosage.

PE are generally though not always a little cheaper than FP though in the past postage has balanced these differences out

As i said, i do not think either company is trying to mislead but there is something off in how the info is being presented.