Project Horses

TheBlackMoth

TheBlackMoth

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Ok - this may be somewhat controversial but I am genuinely interested. Remember I am a non horsey mum (with teenagers with horses). I was just prompted to look at project horses from a post further down. I noted two things from the horses on there. 1 A lot of the owners are selling due to injuries the owners have sustained. 2. Loads of them are Parelli or NH people who want their horses to go to homes like this.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am a soft, lefty, armchair socialist who can hug trees with the best of them. I genuinely believe we should be kind and caring with our animals and would always want the best for them.

But... the number of horses with problems on that site makes me think that this type of horse management can't work. (I know it's a site for problem horses - I suppose I mean the specific type of problems.) Am I being too quick to judge? Is there something specific I am missing about this site.

Funnily enough someone had suggested we try and sell our problem mare on this site. However, I don't think it would be the right place as I genuinely believe our mare needs some really tough management to get her to realise she is not in charge. I don't think hugs would help her
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(Although I hasten to add that she does get plenty of hugs!!!!)


Really not trying to start a Parelli argument (as I realise these can go on and on). I am just very curious!
 
I have always assumed that a large majority of people who carry out Parelli are not 'Natural Horsemen', but have just read the book and attempted to follow the instruction (without the benefit of years of experience or a single ounce of Common Sense between them).

Having brought the book/DVD/Carrot Stick and Ball they then purchase their project (or a perfectly good well mannered horse they then turn into a project). Due to having little knowledge (bar the book/DVD) or experience they then don't know how to react, when the horse doesn't do exactly what they are expecting (as per book/DVD), thus react inappropriately i.e. pushing when the horse needs reassurance or reassuring when the horse needs to be push.
 
It certainly looked like it.

I am not unsympathetic. After all at the moment I have a mare that we have bought and ruined by not having the experience to handle her. Sadly, she now also has foot problems (bloody farrier - but that's another story) and cannot be sold yet. So it looks like we are going to have to keep her over the winter and try and fix some of her issues.
 
Hi,
What problems does your mare have, and what has been tried to fix them? I've seen project horses, and have to agree there are lots of NH type horses on there, but I think if I remember rightly there's a link to it from one of the NH type websites.
I've got 3 horses, one 9yr old that I've had since he was 2, a pony we've had a year for my daughter and a yearling warmblood filly I got three months ago. I used the NH and Parelli methods with my boy from the age of 2 and despite being a huge heavywight 15.2 he is now the kind of horse you can do anything with, my 4 yr old daughter rides him!! The pony was started using conventional methods by a BHSAI and is quite honestly very bad mannered! Bites, kicks etc, has no respect for humans and doesn't trust anyone to do anything, due I think to "firm handling". With this mare firm handling gets you hurt! I've been doing join up etc with this pony and we've come to have a little mutual respect but still not perfect, it's gonna take some time! My yearling (15hh already!) is being brought up with NH/Parelli and already I have had saddles, bridles, long reining equipment, rugs and even plastic bags on/around her as part of her training, with no problems. She is incredibly trusting of me and that's down to join up etc. She's even a bright chestnut mare (reputedly impossible!). I'd have to say I'm a huge fan of these methods, but I think the problems ocurr when people don't quite understand what they're doing. I didn't! I had a qualified Intelligent Horsemanship Associate training me with my horse. It costs a fair bit, but you wouldn't learn to ride by reading a BHS book would you?
Ok enough ranting - I'm not a total nutter, and of course I don't think the conventional ways are bad, jst different!!! I believe horse handling comes down to respect, if your horse respects you he'll work with you, but you have to prove you're worthy of respect first. NH/Parelli/Intelligent Horsemanship all teach you how to earn this respect, they just need to be learnt and understood fully. Just my opinion, if anyone thinks differently please shout!! I'm a newbie on here so quite happy to be put in my place!!!
 
She's young and a bit confused and hasn't had the most consistent handling from my girls. Her ground manners are not great - although they are improving. Sadly she has just had a very bad experience with a farrier so is not great for shoeing. She is fine to ride but needs a more confident rider than my daughter.

I think the most important thing for her is firm handling and she is just not getting that from my girls at the moment. They try but I believe they are slightly out of their depth.

She was a bad choice for us really and sadly she is paying the price. Once we have her feet sorted I will have another think at how we are going to deal with her.

I certainly don't know enough to be for or against Parelli - but it does seem that a lot of people go at it half baked and end up with worse problems than they started with. However, I am fully willing to accept that my opinion has been built from posts on here and I don't think this is the most Parelli friendly forum!!!
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If you'll pardon the pun, it's horses fo courses!!!

Who's to say the pony that as started buy the BHSAI would be any different any other way or the 2 year old you started with NH vice versa!

One of mine wuld be quite happy with NH as she's a big scaredy cat and needs constant reassurance! The other needs and responds well to firm handling. If you tried NH with her you'd come off worst!
 
Before the inevitable mud slinging starts . . .

I think there is more to this than "Parelli ruins horses". After all, people have been ruining horses since we first stated riding and driving the poor critters, using many more systems than this one.

Couple of points:

1) Parelli and similar TENDS to attract people who are relatively new to horse ownership and I think it gives some people the idea a book and a dvd and a few sessions is all one needs. Every good horseman I know (Olympians, Grade 1 racing producers, top Reining trainers, German stallion producers etc.) says the more they live and learn the less they realise they know. I think a system that encourages people to think they know it all early on - even if this is not the stated aim of the system - is dangerous.

2) The people who are attracted to "alternative" systems tend also to be attracted to "alternative" horses - iconoclasts tend to think the rules don't apply to them, especially when they're inexperienced. So the least prepared people often end up with the least suitable horses and then don't have the resources to make an informed decision or deal effectively with the situation. I find this programme, particularly, takes little notice of differences in individual horses and how that might affect expected outcomes. In other words, there are lots of horse that are NEVER going to be safe novice hacks. That's not what they're bred or built for. It doesn't matter how many games they play, in the end they are going to continue to be what they are.

3) I know some "natural horsemen" with FANTASTICALLY trained horses. But they are HORSEMEN (for argument let's say it's a gender neutral term) first and see themselves that way, so they are always learning from other horsemen, regardless of whatever hat they wear. There are many and myriad "natural" systems with good foundations and proven success. Unfortunately, as in all things, the most publicised not only gets the most attention but attracts the most followers, who will run the gamut from good to bad, sensible to perhaps not so much.

4) Western training, which is what much of the NH stuff is based on, is for specific ends. While some of it may cross apply, not all of it does. Training a horse for one discipline (even if that's "pet") and expecting it to magically do another is not sensible. But devotees of very restricted systems are famous for thinking their rules and practices are "the best" for any situation.

5) People who are true believers but not overly experienced don't generally feel comfortable asking for help outside of whatever system their locked into. They have often "turned against" other systems and therefore pride can make them persevere when something isn't working.

6) Related to above, when the parameters for picking help are so narrow most people will do without rather than compromise. So people who *need* a Parelli instructor will either put it off or dismiss anyone who doesn't fit their narrow definition of success.


All of which, I suspect (and see . . .it's my bread and butter) leads to a lot of quite inexperienced people with more than averagely difficult horses and no actual support system. A recipe for disaster. But they cling to it because to do otherwise would be to admit they'd made a wrong choice.
 
In my opinion the reason you see so many failures using NH etc on this site is that people go at it half baked and their results are on Project Horse. I have a friend who is having great success with Parelli but she has even been to the states to train and knows and understands its a method that has to be done correctly 100% of the time or you have a confused horse.
 
That's very interesting and makes a lot of sense.

It is difficult to admit you made the wrong choice. It has taken us nearly a year with our mare to accept we just picked the wrong horse for us. She would have been a fantastic choice for someone else she is just not right for us. What makes me sad about this is that she is a lovely girl and none of this is her fault. The girls love her - she is a very affectionate mare - but they don't enjoy her and as it's a hobby that should be what it is all about.
 
Yes I agree, I've had horses for the last 15 years and it's only the recent ones I've trained using these methods, prior to them I used conventional ways and still had perfectly mannered, well behaved animals, so I don't think any method is 100% better than any other. I do think however that a lot of the bad press NH receives is down to people buying a book or a DVD and thinking they know it all.
It sounds to me a little like the mare with the problems needs a firm but fair approach in whatever method, but done by somebody who clearly understands all the implications of the method they use.
Horses for courses is definitely the pun for the thread!!!
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**gets large bucket of popcorn and waits, sod it also gets glass of wine**

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I'm with you Josie, it is Friday after all!
 
There are two sides to every story, i am not a true follower of NH, tend to use more conventional methods, but when you really sit back and analysis conventional methods it has amazed me how much you already, perhaps without recognising (cos you havent read the books, watched the DVDs) how close you sre to using SOME NH methods already. Have worked on several project horses with great succuess, often get comments on how well behaved are horses are, if the horse respects you and you respect it you are more than half way there
 
I'm willing to bet that 95% or so of the horses on project horses have problems far more serious and less fixable than people like to admit, whether its with carrot sticks or conventional methods. Over half of them admit their horses are to some extent lame, I bet most of the other half just don't know, they just want some of the money back they spent on said useless horse.
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I have to say, having been prompted to look at project horses by your post I am absolutely astounded at the price some of those horses are! Some of them are similar to what you'd pay for a horse with no issues. It baffles me how people can justify asking that much for horses that rear or have navicular etc etc...
I'm actually really intrigued as to how many of those horses get re-homed at prices like that!
 
natural horsemanship without the capitals is to be sought after and applauded.
once you give it capital letters and especially once you rename it parelli, it 's just a marketing ploy.
my top moan about all 'alternatives' is that, having been spawned in america, they always start from the assumption that we are roping horses, throwing them to the floor, branding them and beating them with bullwhips.
Now I trained with the BHS when the only bloke who rode a horse without a bridle was Col Sir Mike Ansell, and let me tell you, that branding and bullwhip stuff wasn't on the syllabus even then.

Edited because despite my proximity to Brizzle, I do not actually refer to the USA as 'americal' .....
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Hi - sorry to hear your girls havent got on with their new mare,, I remember how excited you were when you got her
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Your situation sounds exactly like what happened to us. My daughter has always ridden quirky types and had helped back lots of ponies ponies but still things went pear shaped when we got her a young TB. She stuck at it for over a year but with the added pressure of GCSE's and then A'levels, we decided to put her out on loan to a gutsy girls who rides every day and gets on a dream with the horse. We will re- evaluate when the loan expires in Feb. I do hope this doesnt dent your girls confidence too much. My daughter was absolutely crushed by a sense of failure, she even considered giving up riding totaly.

Fate stepped in however, we still have her 14.1 who was supposed to be going into semi retirement as mummies hack. I found out I was pregnant in May so my daughter has spent the summer back on her old faithull and is back to enjoying herself.

Hope things work out for all of you.
 
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I'm actually really intrigued as to how many of those horses get re-homed at prices like that!

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I'll bet it's not many! lol
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I'm always astounded when I look at the prices on that website!
 
Yes this is just it exactly. It has knocked her confidence. Thankfully we still have their 14 2 pony and although she is a little tall at 5ft 6in she is very very light and is now having lessons on Ebony and beginning to enjoy riding again. It's very sad when they stop enjoying it. I feel terribly sorry for Lita as she is a lovely horse, she just needs a more experienced rider.
 
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BTW - meant to say that we originaly tried advertising our mare on project horse. Bizzarely I only got responses from novices!

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who probably had the parelli dvd and thought they could therefore perform magic.
but it's like watching a spanish riding school dvd and assuming you could therefore teach levade!
parelli is undoubtedly a wonderful natural horseman, but then so is john whitaker, but buying a dvd about their methods doesn't make you them!
and there are degrees of horsemanship, I'm afraid, which are born and not made, twas ever thus.
 
I found my young mare on Project Horses and she was brought up using Natural Horsemanship from being a foal. She is the most respectful horse I have ever come in contact with
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Which is good, as she is 17.1hh and a bit dizzy
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She was on Project Horses because her breeder did not have the time to continue her education, although she had been backed as a 4 year old (she was 5 when I took her on). The site allowed the breeder to put everything about the mare that she felt necessary and the reason she was on there was because she needed someone who would be sympthetic and kind with her because she is a little bit of a worry head
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Slightly off point I know but, I'm advertising a horse on project horses at the moment. I believed he was a project because he needs someone with more experience than me to take him on. I'm amazed at the people who have called up for him - they know less than me!!! lol My yard manager is working him for me and has even competed him and assures me he is not a project just green and I should remove him from the site which I have tried to do, but it seems that once they are on, they are on for good!!
 
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