Promotion of Overbending in the Young Horse

criso said:
Comments and marked down all they way through for being in front of the vertical, not on the bit etc. In the comments judge liked paces but wanted to see him in an outline.
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But a judge marks according to a standard - the 'ideal' or 'perfect' way of going for that level of test. They don't take into account the age of the horse (they don't know!), so although to you, your horse may have had a perfectly acceptable way of going for its age and level of training, according to judging standards it did not.
 
I attended a BD lecture demo last year by David Hunt (I think) and the horse was very BTV - deep and round - and he implied that's how he thinks they should be. It was interesting to hear his view point on that as it seemed to me not in line with current thinking. The horse looked extremely relaxed and swingy.
 
The point David Hunt was making was that deep and round is not bad, but part of training tools. Should be able to put horse in lots of differing outlines according to what you are training - that horse started like that in the session for suppleness / submission then was brought up :)
 
meardsall_millie said:
But a judge marks according to a standard - the 'ideal' or 'perfect' way of going for that level of test. They don't take into account the age of the horse (they don't know!), so although to you, your horse may have had a perfectly acceptable way of going for its age and level of training, according to judging standards it did not.
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I did say it was an intro walk trot test, that's the most basic entry level.
 
nikkimariet said:
Agree to disagree!!!
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I do agree to disagree, because clearly it works from your own great sesults.

But I think the discussion is very interesting, because it is, as far as I am aware, a complete departure from classical principles. And also because of the changes which have been made in the scoring of movements at high levels, which Karl thinks are as a result. For anyone who wants to see what he means, the book 'Twisted truths of modern dressage' is a great read.


Can people continuing the discussion please note that the OP was not commenting on the horse in the picture being overbent at that moment in time, she was commenting on the picture being used inmore than one article as an example of good training.


PS my comments are made by someone with no track record of success in affiliated dressage.
 
meardsall_millie said:
But even at the most basic level the horse should work forwards into a contact. You stated that yours did not in this test.
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I didn't say he was not working forwards into a contact, he was but with his head above the vertical. He was not in an outline with his nose on the vertical and that is what the judges were hoping to see even at entry level.

As said they don't seem to mark down an error in the opposite direction. A friend whose horse tends to go overbent and tucks in behind the bit as an evasion didn't get a comment for this.

And if judges mark up for outline even when the horse is not working properly then you can't blame people for putting the same emphasis on their training.
 
criso said:
I didn't say he was not working forwards into a contact, he was but with his head above the vertical. He was not in an outline with his nose on the vertical and that is what the judges were hoping to see even at entry level.

As said they don't seem to mark down an error in the opposite direction. A friend whose horse tends to go overbent and tucks in behind the bit as an evasion didn't get a comment for this.

And if judges mark up for outline even when the horse is not working properly then you can't blame people for putting the same emphasis on their training.
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This.

I see it all the time. An error of head carriage is usually only penalised in one direction - before the verticle.

In desperation on two not naturally talented horses, I have ridden them overbent through a test. The first was unaffiliated prelim in front of an affiliated judge. He won by a mile in a class of thirty.

The second was affiliated novice eventing, where to my recollection he scored 71%, a mark I had never got near with that horse before.

I also question whether in front of the verticle should be marked as an error at all in prelim and below. I understand why we do it. I've been doing it extensively on my KS rehab precisely because it loosens his back right off.
 
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Ferdinase514 said:
The point David Hunt was making was that deep and round is not bad, but part of training tools. Should be able to put horse in lots of differing outlines according to what you are training - that horse started like that in the session for suppleness / submission then was brought up :)
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cptrayes said:
I do agree to disagree, because clearly it works from your own great sesults.
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Yep - Fig remains soft and supple in the contact regardless of where I place the poll, nose or neck. It is not always perfect (nothing ever is), but his consistent and elastic contact is always positively commented on by judges :)
 
criso said:
I did say it was an intro walk trot test, that's the most basic entry level.
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just to pick up on this point.

its a test of the most basic movements, and there is still and ideal standard against which it is judged.

if the horse is generally on the aids, accepting the aids, and supple, it will come together in a half decent outline. Perhaps the judge could have worded it better but i would hazard a guess that the horse was generally not accepting of the aids and not *through* and thus working incorrectly, so the outline/frame whatever, shown did not meet the standards.

the horse that goes BTV perhaps is overall more supple, kept a better tempo etc and met the standard better so scored higher (not saying thats a definate but just a perhaps). Perhaps the judge had many other things to comment on, the BTV being the smallest issue-judges can give pointers but not a mini riding lesson or essay and thus cannot cover every point!
 
I feel very strongly that we need to look very carefully about the judging at the lower levels to ensure people are not misguided into thinking BTV is the way their hose should be.
An educated rider understands how to work their horse so that it can be placed anywhere and sometimes BTV is the right place for the horse at that time- maybe it is being used to make the horse more supple, more rideable, less spooky, whatever.
However, many prelim riders that I see out and about fix the hands low or saw the head in and keep it there because that's what they think they should do. Judges then place them top of the class because their horse is 'on the bit'.
 
TheMule said:
I feel very strongly that we need to look very carefully about the judging at the lower levels to ensure people are not misguided into thinking BTV is the way their hose should be.
An educated rider understands how to work their horse so that it can be placed anywhere and sometimes BTV is the right place for the horse at that time- maybe it is being used to make the horse more supple, more rideable, less spooky, whatever.
However, many prelim riders that I see out and about fix the hands low or saw the head in and keep it there because that's what they think they should do. Judges then place them top of the class because their horse is 'on the bit'.
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i spend a lot of time at a lot of shows and we watch every class we possibly can and in 99% of cases there is more to it than this.

the riders that have taken the time to learn what the top riders do and try to copy them, have generally pickled up more than just *get its head in* and are often the people trying so so hard to actually supple and gymnastisize (sp?) their horse so may well be BTV (by mistake, mis timing etc)but may also be a lot more supple and a lot more connected and submissive than something IFV but tight over back and laterally stiff for eg.

they are the best of that class, not the best ever full stop and if they meet more of the criteria than anyone else, they will win.

granted this is BD not unaff but i see little sawing or fixing(aside from the odd anomalous shocker!)

I currently train 2 very talented young ladies on 2 young horses (one is 4 and the other is 5 but both are a little weak for their age).
we work on suppleness and throughness and making the horses as soft and strong as we can, week by week breaking down the stiffness and building up the strength.
These are horses ultimately aimed at medium-PSG level.

both horses have a tendancey to drop BTV if worried or tired(the big lad in particular) but having watched both at local unaff shows (prelim and nov) they are a lot more supple than 99% of the rerst of them and clearly showing ability for the higher levels.
I would be fuming if they were beaten by something that went round IFV but stiff as a board with no ability to stay on the hind leg or show true self carrige, no matter how deep they dropped!!!!!
 
final point:

if you produce a test, on the vertical or IFV, that is soft over back, laterally supple, accurate, connected and engaged you will NOT be beaten by a horse that is BTV plus all of the above.

so if you are being beaten by BTV horses, you have probably got other(bigger) issues to adress......
 
TheMule said:
I feel very strongly that we need to look very carefully about the judging at the lower levels to ensure people are not misguided into thinking BTV is the way their hose should be.
An educated rider understands how to work their horse so that it can be placed anywhere and sometimes BTV is the right place for the horse at that time- maybe it is being used to make the horse more supple, more rideable, less spooky, whatever.
However, many prelim riders that I see out and about fix the hands low or saw the head in and keep it there because that's what they think they should do. Judges then place them top of the class because their horse is 'on the bit'.
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Yes.

Being behind the vertical does not automatically mean that a horse is not working correctly behind. It is possible for a horse to be BTV and engaged behind.

Being above the vertical does not automatically mean that a horse is working correctly from behind.

Being on the vertical does not automatically mean that a horse is working correctly from behind.

Now, IMO and experience, a horse can only really be BTV and working correctly from behind when the horse is either young or green and unbalanced, where the BTV position is fleeting and created by the horse as he searches and learns OR when a horse is established in the basics and can be worked in a variety of frames without force or compromising the correct movement in the basic paces and exercises.

I do not believe that it is possible for a horse to maintain correct engagement from behind AND be BTV when doing anything other than basic work. So, when I see a horse BTV in anything other than the basic paces in warm up, stretching or cool downs, I believe that the movement behind is compromised and at some point, some level of force has been used.

For these reasons, when I see a horse in a test setting that is BTV consistently, I cannot attribute it to anything other than poor training and riding. If the horse is young, it's time BTV should not last an entire test so the rider is at work keeping the head in that position. If the horse is established and doing a higher level test with more demanding movements, the front end should be light and the hind more engaged to enable the correct movement...so when I then see a consistent BTV head carriage, I believe that the horse is not working correctly and the training methods used have failed the horse and created the issue.

Judging should be back to front in my opinion. Looking at the quality of the engagement and movement behind, through the lightness of the riders aids and down to the contact and acceptance of it. Judging very often however is front to back and this needs to be changed.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i spend a lot of time at a lot of shows and we watch every class we possibly can and in 99% of cases there is more to it than this.

the riders that have taken the time to learn what the top riders do and try to copy them, have generally pickled up more than just *get its head in* and are often the people trying so so hard to actually supple and gymnastisize (sp?) their horse so may well be BTV (by mistake, mis timing etc)but may also be a lot more supple and a lot more connected and submissive than something IFV but tight over back and laterally stiff for eg.

they are the best of that class, not the best ever full stop and if they meet more of the criteria than anyone else, they will win.

granted this is BD not unaff but i see little sawing or fixing(aside from the odd anomalous shocker!)

I currently train 2 very talented young ladies on 2 young horses (one is 4 and the other is 5 but both are a little weak for their age).
we work on suppleness and throughness and making the horses as soft and strong as we can, week by week breaking down the stiffness and building up the strength.
These are horses ultimately aimed at medium-PSG level.

both horses have a tendancey to drop BTV if worried or tired(the big lad in particular) but having watched both at local unaff shows (prelim and nov) they are a lot more supple than 99% of the rerst of them and clearly showing ability for the higher levels.
I would be fuming if they were beaten by something that went round IFV but stiff as a board with no ability to stay on the hind leg or show true self carrige, no matter how deep they dropped!!!!!
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:
final point:

if you produce a test, on the vertical or IFV, that is soft over back, laterally supple, accurate, connected and engaged you will NOT be beaten by a horse that is BTV plus all of the above.

so if you are being beaten by BTV horses, you have probably got other(bigger) issues to adress......
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Spot on. BTV is not the automatically the demon it is perceived to be. It just needs to be understood and its context recognised.
 
I think a young horse having moments BTV is more difficult to fix than a young horse which is poking it's nose and not really on the aids. I would kind of expect both at some moments in time though - especially when out and about with babies. My son's horse resolutely tucks his nose in which is a nightmare, he has always done it, maybe he was badly started, I suspect it has more to do with mouth issues as a baby tho. My horse was allowed to mature before I asked him to work in a more rounded outline, he is easy to work correctly at any time, he just finds it tiring.

Interestingly at the weekend we went and did a local unaff dressage. There was a very nice horse with super paces which was being warmed up perpetually short in the neck and btv. The rider looked like a semi pro, it was swinging along nicely and she worked it up into a better frame for periods.

After half an hour of solid trotting & cantering work the horse started misbehaving badly, rearing and napping and rider had to dismount during her test.

I wondered whether she rode it aggressively overbent because she knew it would misbehave. I find this is a route people take with young horses but when you shorten & over supple the neck you have no control in front of the withers IMO which can be far worse.

Anyway, the question which occurred to me at the time was whether in fact the horse started protesting because it was really uncomfortable or whether she had it in the over bent outline because she knew it might be naughty - neither is an ideal scenario.
 
Sorry Criso I'm not having a dig at you personally.

PS has already articulated much of what I would have said so I won't repeat it.

The only thing I would add is that we have to remember that training and test riding are very different. In training I expect to 'break eggs to make an omelette' - sometimes stuff has to be undone or done in an out of the ordinary way in order to put it back together correctly.

In test riding we are putting ourselves up to be judged against the current standard for that level. I see it as an evaluation of my current progress with that horse but might not always like what I hear!

Whether the current standards for the level are correct is a whole other subject!
 
siennamum said:
I think a young horse having moments BTV is more difficult to fix than a young horse which is poking it's nose and not really on the aids. I would kind of expect both at some moments in time though - especially when out and about with babies. My son's horse resolutely tucks his nose in which is a nightmare, he has always done it, maybe he was badly started, I suspect it has more to do with mouth issues as a baby tho. My horse was allowed to mature before I asked him to work in a more rounded outline, he is easy to work correctly at any time, he just finds it tiring.

Interestingly at the weekend we went and did a local unaff dressage. There was a very nice horse with super paces which was being warmed up perpetually short in the neck and btv. The rider looked like a semi pro, it was swinging along nicely and she worked it up into a better frame for periods.

After half an hour of solid trotting & cantering work the horse started misbehaving badly, rearing and napping and rider had to dismount during her test.

I wondered whether she rode it aggressively overbent because she knew it would misbehave. I find this is a route people take with young horses but when you shorten & over supple the neck you have no control in front of the withers IMO which can be far worse.

Anyway, the question which occurred to me at the time was whether in fact the horse started protesting because it was really uncomfortable or whether she had it in the over bent outline because she knew it might be naughty - neither is an ideal scenario.
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i would hazard a guess she put it deep to stop it being a nob and over cooked it and the horse got tired/sore and said stuff you.

puttign them deep does work as a control mechanism (think rollkur) and is half the reason so many red hot GP horses come out very deep for the first 5/10 mins. Been there done it with a rearing and plunging CS-get its neck down and you take away much of the horses ability to explode randomly.

from a personal POV i find it much easier to get a forward thinking horse out to the contact than to ride a nose poker thats ignoring me.... but that may have more to do with mindset than frame-i want a horse that naturally wants to yield to the leg (got forward, or sideways, easily and sharply) and also yeild to the hand( maintain self carrige in the bend as well as the*frame* and not lean on me) and i find it easier to correct over enthusiastic BTV than a freight train that blunders along blindly ignoring me.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i find it easier to correct over enthusiastic BTV than a freight train that blunders along blindly ignoring me.
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Freight train pretty much describes the btv horse I mentioned. Stong, downhill, tense and tucks his nose into his chest as an evasion, usually prior to tanking off or broncing.

The iftv horse I mentioned was only there to see how he would react in a competition environment and a civilised warm up rather than a chaotic jumping warm up and I was happy that he although initially distracted, he soon settled, listened and worked forward so I got what I wanted out of the day.


Now retired but he would give me a balanced uphill canter that I could shorten and lengthen, the sort of canter you would be happy to jump anything from. Not my doing I should add, just that he was naturally balanced and built that way.

I mentioned these examples as they seem part of a pattern that I see at unaffiliated competitions. Horse after horse which has been forced into an outline it's not ready for, not working properly from behind. It seems to me that that sort of training gone wrong should be marked down more that a horse that has yet to learn not less.
 
it sounds like you got what you wanted out of the day? so lots to be pleased about? I would repeat that whichever horse meets the criteria the best/most, will win, and that if your IFV horse met all other criteria he would have won, so although his issue may not be BTV, there are obviously training issues to work on?

(and thats not a dig, lets face it there is always something to work on!)
if this happened when you took him for a look round, and he is now retired, im guessing this is a long time ago? standards have probably changed a lot since?

Judges dont try and place the wrong horse 1st, they simply judge what is presented to them accoridng to their training.

without pics no one can say for sure, but i would caution to look at the bigger pic and be honest about the IFV horses faults.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
if this happened when you took him for a look round, and he is now retired, im guessing this is a long time ago? standards have probably changed a lot since?
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Retired through injury - it was 2 1/2 - 3 years ago so not that long.

I suppose what I'm saying it, it does seem (at our local venues) that IFV always gets commented on but BTV even when forced doesn't seem to be.
 
Haven't read all other replies, but IMO

BTV can be long, deep and round - if done correctly it helps build muscle and stretch the horse. No, it is not the correct dressage competition outline but certainly useful for training. Not talking about rollkur or being on the forehand, but a horse that is swinging through from behind with all muscles behind the saddle and at the top of the neck working, with a true contact.

A lot of show jumpers (and dressage horses and eventers for that matter) are schooled this way and are not lacking in self carriage, elasticity or muscle tone. It is just not correct for a dressage test.

A horse who has a rigid neck, star gazing, sticking right out with the rider basically sitting on its spine takes MUCH more damage. But people on HHO generally don't like to criticise these riders...
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
final point:

if you produce a test, on the vertical or IFV, that is soft over back, laterally supple, accurate, connected and engaged you will NOT be beaten by a horse that is BTV plus all of the above.

so if you are being beaten by BTV horses, you have probably got other(bigger) issues to adress......
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I'm sorry, I don't agree. I think in the venues I go to that the horse which is behind the verticle will beat the one which is in front of the verticle, where everything else is equal, at least nine times out of ten.
 
cptrayes said:
I'm sorry, I don't agree. I think in the venues I go to that the horse which is behind the verticle will beat the one which is in front of the verticle, where everything else is equal, at least nine times out of ten.
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I'm afraid I agree, at least for local unaffiliated competitions. I did have a student win a test with a horse consistently ifv under a listed judge but in the other ring the judge made it very clear that in order to get anything over a 4 that was not acceptable. Mixed message!

I would say, too, I have seen a couple of lessons recently with local 'competition' trainers who were quite blunt in saying that it was preferable to have the horse behind, even if this was done by having the hand low and wide. In the face of that sort of input I can't see why a less experienced student would make a different decision and I don't think the trainers would say it if they didn't feel it was true.
 
I have had btv on my BD Prelim tests before, my horse was five, relatively immature and when tense or tired sometimes his natural response was to drop deep. Usually the comments stem from the medium walk, where he starts to anticipate a stretch down in to the Free Walk. Granted if I wasn't holding the reins he'd drop his nose to the ground instead.

We do use LDR in his work to help strengthen and supple him, just as we also spend a lot of time pushing him up to the vertical to really get him to start pushing through from behind, sometimes we put him front of the vertical a smidgen to exaggerate it.

You can't train a horse in one frame, you don't see gymnasts only working one set of muscles so you? Of course there's a correct frame, there's Valegro and that's how we want our horses to go, beautifully on the vertical, soft, relaxed and powerful. Valegro isn't always ridden in that comp outline ;)
 
Did anyone actually see the article in question?

I did. I was at the yard when I read it, I and another instructor there actually couldn't believe what we were reading. There were several pictures of that same chestnut horse, and it was overbent in all of them.
Immediately lost all respect for the trainer. Anyone who thinks that they were good pictures to use on an article about how to train the young horse really isn't on the same page as me when it comes to schooling.
It wasnt even that it was overbent but the 'stretching' excuse could be used, as the line was clearly broken about a third of the way down from the poll.

I thought it was a shockingly irresponsible article, and so did everyone else I know who saw it.
 
I love these threads, put up a picture of a horse and we're free to pull it to pieces. I think i must be missing the vids of the pretty grey horse who was consistently btv, sorry can't remember his name! Not wishing to stir things up but I understood ideally the horse should be slightly IFV with the poll the highest point in a test. clearly the poll won't be the highest point when when working long and low etc but I thought the nose should still be slightly IFV. Am I wrong? I'm sure someone will put me straight about this.
 
oldie48 said:
I love these threads, put up a picture of a horse and we're free to pull it to pieces. I think i must be missing the vids of the pretty grey horse who was consistently btv, sorry can't remember his name!.
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But the point of this thread is, it's not just a moment in time. It was a series of pictures showing a young horse being schooled incorrectly in a nationally circulated magazine - which is shockingly irresponsible.
 
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