Promotion of Overbending in the Young Horse

Sorry i just saw the one picture and as I said in an earlier post, I thought it was a poor choice for a number of reasons but it seems to have sparked a lot of exchanges additional to that debate.
Patterdale said:
But the point of this thread is, it's not just a moment in time. It was a series of pictures showing a young horse being schooled incorrectly in a nationally circulated magazine - which is shockingly irresponsible.
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I'd be interested to hear what we all think of this horse and his carriage?
 
As a declared novice, who doesn't train anyone or bring on young horses I'm prepared to have a go. Nothing better to do on a windy rainy evening. It's of course difficult to tell from a static picture but I think he may be tight in the muscle under his neck and have what my trainer describes as a stick in the throat which will stop him properly coming through from behind
 
oldie48 said:
As a declared novice, who doesn't train anyone or bring on young horses I'm prepared to have a go. Nothing better to do on a windy rainy evening. It's of course difficult to tell from a static picture but I think he may be tight in the muscle under his neck and have what my trainer describes as a stick in the throat which will stop him properly coming through from behind
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Interesting, but having ridden him that certainly wasn't my experience (he's a PRE stallion with a massive crest, BTW), quite supple in his neck and through his body.
 
When I bought my horse he never went BTV - but he was also very stiff, unbalanced, and lacked muscle everywhere except on the underside of his neck which was hugely overdeveloped and rock-solid. He was also very prone to bringing his neck up and back towards his withers as an evasion.
As his schooling and acceptance of the contact improved he seemed to go to the other extreme and appeared BTV most of the time even though the contact felt softer and more elastic and he was startingto swing through his back. I knew the outline wasn't correct but I couldn't deny that to ride he certainly felt better and he was definitely tracking up.

A year later he will now spends the majority of a schooling session OTV or varying between slightly behind or IFV depending on what we are doing. I never actively try to ride him BTV but he will start to drop his poll and come BTV when he starts to tire or initially performing harder exercises - presumably a lot of BTV is down to a lack of strength and is therefore not a fault as such?

My ultimate aim is to get him as up and open as possible in front but in order to achieve that without the braced underneck and hollow back is going to take a huge amount of strength and effort on his part as he needs to carry himself differently to how he does naturally and this takes time to develop, especially as his conformation is less than ideal. Few horses are presented as the finished article.

I also think that conformation must play a role. I remember reading an article online comparing 2 photos of piaffe, they were basically identical but one of the horses had a longer neck and thinner throatlatch and therefore found it easier to maintain an on the vertical head position where as the horse with the shorter neck was more IFV. Therefore I assume a shorter neck/thicker throatlatch makes it easier for a horse to stay IFV and less likely to overbend?
 
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Ref Cortez's horse, I like it though I am no expert. He is on, if not slightly in front of the vertical. It looks a fairly engaged trot, but it is so hard with pre's I think as they can look lovely but when compared to a WB there is not a lot of thoroughness or activity over the back. That horse could have no weight in the reins at all and yet do a piaffe I would imagine.
 
I've been following this thread, it is so interesting hearing the different viewpoints. I'm going to stick my neck on the line here (may live to regret this!). But thoughts on this picture. Horse is a rising 4yo and this is about her 6th time under saddle and 3rd time in the arena.

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charlimouse said:
I've been following this thread, it is so interesting hearing the different viewpoints. I'm going to stick my neck on the line here (may live to regret this!). But thoughts on this picture. Horse is a rising 4yo and this is about her 6th time under saddle and 3rd time in the arena.

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I love this and have very similar pictures of my gelding when he was at a similar stage, just perfect IMO, working actively, happy in the contact, no strain, beginning of connection from the back to the hand without losing it via overbending or through the shoulders.
 
As a totally useless rider, stressage-wise particularly, I am finding this thread fascinating.


But just want to throw in that not ALL judges prefer BTV. I was delighted last year when my son took our family horse to their first ever BE, (80T) and achieved a dressage score which put them in the top third of a large class. This despite me being very worried they would get an embarrassingly poor score, partly because the old mare is determinedly IFV occasionally OTV. but she is active, supple, etc, and they got lovely comments about 'correct scales of training'. (And made me giggle because presumably the judge thought she was a youngster!)

In fact this has encouraged my son, typical teenage boy who loves to jump etc, to declare a few weeks later that he wants to have more flat work lessons <fainting with shock gif here> :)
 
Cragrat said:
As a totally useless rider, stressage-wise particularly, I am finding this thread fascinating.


But just want to throw in that not ALL judges prefer BTV. I was delighted last year when my son took our family horse to their first ever BE, (80T) and achieved a dressage score which put them in the top third of a large class. This despite me being very worried they would get an embarrassingly poor score, partly because the old mare is determinedly IFV occasionally OTV. but she is active, supple, etc, and they got lovely comments about 'correct scales of training'. (And made me giggle because presumably the judge thought she was a youngster!)

In fact this has encouraged my son, typical teenage boy who loves to jump etc, to declare a few weeks later that he wants to have more flat work lessons <fainting with shock gif here> :)
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Iunderstand that they are told to score differently for eventing, to allow for fitter horses anticipating going jumping
 
I am in the process of schooling my young horse and as she doesn't yet have the correct muscle, yes sometimes she drops below the vertical and overbends a little. And then we work on pushing her up and out of this. I would hate for anyone to take a photo of her when she's overbending and then use it against me to say what I'm doing is wrong.
 
NellRosk said:
I am in the process of schooling my young horse and as she doesn't yet have the correct muscle, yes sometimes she drops below the vertical and overbends a little. And then we work on pushing her up and out of this. I would hate for anyone to take a photo of her when she's overbending and then use it against me to say what I'm doing is wrong.
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But that's not what happened here. A trainer, writing an article on schooling young horses, deliberately CHOSE more than one picture of an overbent horse, which means that they presumably think that this is the correct way for a young horse to go.
Which it's not.
And people will read that and think 'oh, that's what I should be doing!'
 
Patterdale said:
But that's not what happened here. A trainer, writing an article on schooling young horses, deliberately CHOSE more than one picture of an overbent horse, which means that they presumably think that this is the correct way for a young horse to go.
Which it's not.
And people will read that and think 'oh, that's what I should be doing!'
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OP asked if the article/ photo was representing the current trend for starting horses and I was just giving my example to show that (I hope) it's not!
 
charlimouse said:
I've been following this thread, it is so interesting hearing the different viewpoints. I'm going to stick my neck on the line here (may live to regret this!). But thoughts on this picture. Horse is a rising 4yo and this is about her 6th time under saddle and 3rd time in the arena.

4231D719.jpg
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Since I've already told you I think (for what it's worth) you're doing a good job with her, I will just point out that, having seen the video, you could have produced photo to illustrate about 4 other positions/contacts. This is, of course, the nature of the beast with young horses but it does show you can't judge anything helpful from a photo. The best test will have bad moments and vice versa.

For a horse at that stage I would ALWAYS want them to be taking the hand forward and except for perhaps a brief moment here or there, I am not happy if they come behind the hand because it means I'm doing something wrong. Once the horse can stay reasonably straight and forward with a following hand, then I can start to ask a bit more and the contact might become less consistent. But in those first rides it is MY job to keep the contact soft and forward, not the baby horse's. With that soft connection I should be able to start shaping the horse within a few rides but without any stress or loss of BASIC connection. I'll be really honest, I think a lot of horses get a little bit screwed up at this stage - you never have a second chance to make a first impression. I have NEVER sat on a healthy, decently produced young horse that is not soft in the back and innocent in the contact. I know that goes away just with "life" to some extent but it's my job as a producer to keep as much as that in there as possible. I will add the caveat that I have never met a horse out of racing with that innocent connection in tact - the way they are started and the job precludes it. It doesn't mean such horses can't be taught but don't confuse a completely green horse with one out of racing, at least in this area.
 
cptrayes said:
Iunderstand that they are told to score differently for eventing, to allow for fitter horses anticipating going jumping
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I don't think they are TOLD to, I think the culture is different and the majority of horses go differently than "straight" dressage horses. Someone has to win.

Also, I think it makes a difference if the horse's main job is not dressage, in the horse and in the riding. Gymnasts do not look like weightlifters for a reason.
 
TarrSteps said:
I don't think they are TOLD to, I think the culture is different and the majority of horses go differently than "straight" dressage horses. Someone has to win.

Also, I think it makes a difference if the horse's main job is not dressage, in the horse and in the riding. Gymnasts do not look like weightlifters for a reason.
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I thought I had read that they were told to at the major events. I may be incorrect in that.
 
Just want to add that I do realize that this technique works, and that my understanding is that the vast majority of pro riders do it, including the Hester yard. And Nikki posted lots of pictures of Fig overbent in the early days, which I queried at the time, but nobody can deny the results she is getting.

So I do wonder if it can genuinely be called wrong to school deliberately btv when it achieves the results in the ring that the judges are scoring so high?
 
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Wasn't directed at anyone in particular was replying on phone - a rather blunt tool!

Was just being clear about both outlines being incorrect irrelevant of what has been discussed. I was more miffed by the judging eventers differently comment - said with such authority yet little actual knowledge.

I do feel this thread is focussing on a very specific, detail. Judging movements in any test at any level involves a holistic view of what is presented, in context of the scales of training. outline/contact is just one element and is not static throughout, hence photographs often so not give accurate reflection of what is happening throughout, yet are often used to highlight a horse or rider using/being trained incorrectly.
 
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Ferdinase514 said:
Wasn't directed at anyone in particular was replying on phone - a rather blunt tool!

Was just being clear about both outlines being incorrect irrelevant of what has been discussed. I was more miffed by the judging eventers differently comment - said with such authority yet little actual knowledge.

I do feel this thread is focussing on a very specific, detail. Judging movements in any test at any level involves a holistic view of what is presented, in context of the scales of training. outline/contact is just one element and is not static throughout, hence photographs often so not give accurate reflection of what is happening throughout, yet are often used to highlight a horse or rider using/being trained incorrectly.
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yes!
Ferdinase514 said:
And just to add, young horses occasionally drop poll due to loss of balance due to lack of strength not always because are being ridden deep. Quite normal!
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yes again!

the overall picture and overall way of going is so much more important. Hence my pleas to be very honest about how the *ifv horse* goes generally, in comparison to how a slightly *btv horse* goes generally.
its too easy to say well hers was overbent and mine wasnt, why didnt i win.

sometimes BTV is the lesser of 2 evils, and just as a personal example, CS tends to want to drop his wither shoulder and brace his poll in the trot HP, but he stays very much IFV. However he also drops behind my leg and goes a bit piggy.

If i ride him a bit deeper and rounder, which makes it easier to stop the bracing and keep the wither up, he stays more honestly connected to my hand and in front of the leg.

the latter is a more honest way of going and a better way to improve/train the HP and hopefully will eventually lead to him being able to stay soft, supple, connected, in front of me AND IFV.
 
Ferdinase514 said:
I do feel this thread is focussing on a very specific, detail. Judging movements in any test at any level involves a holistic view of what is presented, in context of the scales of training. outline/contact is just one element and is not static throughout, hence photographs often so not give accurate reflection of what is happening throughout, yet are often used to highlight a horse or rider using/being trained incorrectly.
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The thread is actually about that picture and others being used to illustrate a horse being trained CORRECTLY



disclaimer: I am not, do not claim to be, and never will be a dressage superstar
 
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