Prong collars

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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Go to www.luvmydog.co.uk and look under "prong collars".

Sorry, I don't know how to post the picture/link. Maybe someone else does. But I just wandered onto this website (and no doubt there are others selling these things too) - I was looking for an ordinary bog-standard collar for my two mutts, and I came across this. They're made by Sprenger too, I don't know if its the same people that make horse bits.

I am shocked and appalled. I didn't know these awful things existed, or even that they were legal in the UK. I have e-mailed the company concerned and asked them how they'd feel if they had one of these collars around THEIR necks for more than five seconds.

One wonders what the RSPCA is doing about this??? :(
 
I'm probably going to get my head chopped off, but here goes: neck - line! Ime a correctly fitted and correctly used prong collar is not always a bad thing. Same as a strong bit on a horse -- only as strong as the hands of the handler.

Some dogs are really rather thick furred and skinned, and will practically choke themselves unless something makes them back off (or worse - take off across a busy road, etc). While I think correct training, like correct schooling in non-snaffle mouthed horses, is the long-term way forwards, sometimes animals arrive with ready-made problems that require a different approach!
 
Agree with above poster :)

Having actually felt and worn (me not the dog :o ) a prong collar, they are not quite as evil as they look ;) bearing in mind the 'prongs' are rounded, not sharp as they often look.

I do not think they should be used as a general daily collar. However in a training scenario by experienced hands, it definitely has its place.

I however would never use a thin choke chain on my dogs as they can do a hell of a lot more damage IMO but many people find them totally acceptable :rolleyes:
 
i taught dog training for many years and at one of the places i taught at the secretary had gordon setters her other half had cheasapeke bay retievers and her son had working springer spaniels. all the dogs were working and trialing dogs and they had a few that wore prong/spike collars when waiting to compete.
i was really against them until i had a lady in my class who had a german shepherd puppy she bought him training for 3yrs only missing the odd night, he was not good with other dogs but knew to behave himself whentraining and generally when out and about too. BUT he would always go after cats and pulled his owner over a couple of times (once into the road) when cats ran out of gardens, when this lady was pregnant her husband (a fit 6'2'' 18stone) who was used to dogs did all the walking, when the dog pulled him over after a cat it was the last straw and she borrowed one of the collars , the dog pulled in it once and never again :eek: but when ever they tried a normal collar he was bad with the cats again.
I also know with my lurcher if she was a heavier dog i would have considered one of them :eek: for exactly the same reasons I CANNOT make her behave with cats
 
Couldn't have put it better Miss Tyc. Like many training aids in the right hands there is nothing wrong with them, I have used one in the past , so will put my neck on the line next to you .
 
Dog training is a lost art. Using those collars is a bit like using a chiffney every time you have to walk your horse down the field.
 
aren't they illegal in the uk? man here walks his gsd in one. not got good hands, the first i was aware was when i heard his dog screaming from the other end of the park. says it is because the dog is untrainable! i have had a few run ins with him. his poor beautiful dog is never off the lead now, although it is fine with other dogs. probably doesn't want to come back to him.
 
not illegal to my knowledge but i believe they will be sometime soon
the man sounds like an a**se, but i do believe they have a place

oops the collars not a**ses, there is obviously a place for them
 
chestnuttymare said:
aren't they illegal in the uk? man here walks his gsd in one. not got good hands, the first i was aware was when i heard his dog screaming from the other end of the park. says it is because the dog is untrainable! i have had a few run ins with him. his poor beautiful dog is never off the lead now, although it is fine with other dogs. probably doesn't want to come back to him.
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Sadly they are not illegal, but they should be. This story illustrates why prong collars (and shock collars) should not be on public sale. People will look for the quick fix and then slap one of these on, rather than look into proper training. No dog should be trained with pain. These collars seem to have become more prevelant in this country thanks to a certain Mexican dog torturer on TV, who uses them a lot more that people realise.
 
They may be more prevalent now but they are certainly not a new idea, one was recommended for a dog my mum took on nearly 50 years ago! Like all such things they do need to be used reponsibly, I agree with kc mac that I think very fine check chains are far worse, I have seen a dog have a bone in its throat damaged by one of those.:(
 
Have used them in the past, for a variety of reasons, given guidance by a trainer, not entered into lightly and saved me from having a dead dog.
Yes, Sprenger that make the bits and stirrups make the are the market leaders in prongers and chokes.
My dogs are not abused and have not died because of the very occasional use of a bit of power steering, if anyone wants to come and watch me train in person or meet my dogs, you are very welcome, if not, don't judge me, thankies :)
The first one I used, which was borrowed, I still have, and it is approximately 30 years old - I recall seeing footage of them being used in the 20s.
 
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Dry Rot said:
Dog training is a lost art. Using those collars is a bit like using a chiffney every time you have to walk your horse down the field.
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I agree. I've voiced my opinion on spiked collars before, and on here, and my thoughts weren't too well received! :D A dog which "needs" a spiked collar, isn't a trained dog, it's a dog over which the handler has little control. Better than such a collar, is the outside of your left foot. ;) As for people leading up gundogs in Field Trials, with spiked collars, I've attended a Trial or two, and never yet seen such a thing! :D

Alec.
 
CaveCanem said:
.......

.... if anyone wants to come and watch me train in person or meet my dogs, you are very welcome, if not, don't judge me, thankies :)

.......
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I've only just read your post. No one has judged you. There are those who don't agree with the use of spiked collars. You disagree, which is fine and your prerogative.

The OP seems to think that there's a degree of cruelty attached to their use. I don't agree with that stand point either. Most dogs which need such a device will all so often learn to accept it as the norm, and all so often ignore them, I suspect.

I suspect that as with Electric Collars, the most experienced (and I'm not amongst them), may have a use for them to establish a specific point and with a specific dog. I think that the danger arises, when the novice, or those lacking in experience think that severe training aids will improve their relationship with their dog, and that would surprise me if it did.

Alec.
 
ITA Alec and was addressing no one in particular.
Everytime this subject comes up the words 'cruel' 'barbaric' 'torture' are thrown about and it rankles a little.
I do not believe everyone should be able to go out and buy and use one willy nilly.
They do not suit every dog and yes, you can ruin a dog with their incorrect use.

IMO, they should be used as a standby collar, the primary use of which is to break fixation, or for power steering in certain circumstances, not for lazy lead training, it should never be the dog's main collar or used on the dog for life.

He isn't dead. I promise. And has not worn one for years!!!

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Alec Swan said:
I agree. I've voiced my opinion on spiked collars before, and on here, and my thoughts weren't too well received! :D A dog which "needs" a spiked collar, isn't a trained dog, it's a dog over which the handler has little control. Better than such a collar, is the outside of your left foot. ;) As for people leading up gundogs in Field Trials, with spiked collars, I've attended a Trial or two, and never yet seen such a thing! :D

Alec.
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Have you been to many field trials for pointing dogs, Alec? :D

I had an interesting correspondence with an American lady who hunted a pack of foxhounds in the States. She asked a simple question that I am still hoping to get a answer to.

"How is it", she asked, "That these people (i.e. the general public) need an electric collar to control one dog when we can control 20 couple of hounds (i.e. 40 "dogs"!) without one?"

If a dog cannot be controlled without these training "aids", there is something seriously wrong. But then I think everyone knows that or there would not be the constant demands for more legislation.
 
Dry Rot that is an unfortunate example that you gave of Foxhounds, Foxhounds in the past have run on to railway lines even though they have been called off, have chased cats etc.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Dry Rot that is an unfortunate example that you gave of Foxhounds, Foxhounds in the past have run on to railway lines even though they have been called off, have chased cats etc.
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Very good point Dg, im sure those statistics wont be included in the "control" of the dogs ;) inc the ones that killed an old cat whilst passing through a garden maybe! Im no sure you can compare the training and handling of dogs keps in "out bulidings" and exercised on private land/fields who dont actually get out there in the real world to often and have a job to do. I dont see many farm collies/fox hounds walking through housing estates/on a main road/ on leads passed dogs/people/cars etc and then living in the house with the rest of the family,generally when they re kept like this there become a problem and are rid of pretty quickly;).

I don't actually use/never used a prong collar, I walk 10 dogs daily in the real world but I dont compare them to how others handle theirs or how mine behave there are to many variables that just cannot be compared:)
 
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Dobiegirl said:
Dry Rot that is an unfortunate example that you gave of Foxhounds, Foxhounds in the past have run on to railway lines even though they have been called off, have chased cats etc.
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Even so, they will be under better control than the majority of pet dogs!

I wonder how the percentages would stack up compared to pets?

Yes, hounds do occasionally get out of control, but how many pet owners take 40 dogs out for exercise, unleashed, all in one go?:D
 
can i point out that if a hound was to be one that got out of control it would be shot, no-one would try to rehabilitate it!!!:eek:
so it is a very unfair comparison.
 
jools123 said:
can i point out that if a hound was to be one that got out of control it would be shot, no-one would try to rehabilitate it!!!:eek:
so it is a very unfair comparison.
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There is a very obvious reply to that post and if the advice was followed there would be fewer young children in plastic surgery having their faces rebuilt, let alone the cemetery.

Dr Roger Mugford, the canine behaviourist, told me he had a case in his surgery where a prong from one of these collars had entered the trachea. He felt they should be banned. We both agree there are better methods to train a dog. The problem is, as always, to train the owners.
 
Dry Rot said:
There is a very obvious reply to that post and if the advice was followed there would be fewer young children in plastic surgery having their faces rebuilt, let alone the cemetery.

Dr Roger Mugford, the canine behaviourist, told me he had a case in his surgery where a prong from one of these collars had entered the trachea. He felt they should be banned. We both agree there are better methods to train a dog. The problem is, as always, to train the owners.
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And I've seen a dog loose an eye through misuse of a Halti (sold by Roger Mugford) as well as dogs with embedded collars or chains. Should these also be banned?

This is a tool and can be a useful last resort if used by someone who knows what they are doing. Unfortunately, like many other tools, it gets misused.
 
Dry Rot said:
There is a very obvious reply to that post and if the advice was followed there would be fewer young children in plastic surgery having their faces rebuilt, let alone the cemetery.

Dr Roger Mugford, the canine behaviourist, told me he had a case in his surgery where a prong from one of these collars had entered the trachea. He felt they should be banned. We both agree there are better methods to train a dog. The problem is, as always, to train the owners.
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i dont think any of this thread is discusing aggresive dogs!

also working in a vets we see various dogs with injuries/eye infections and neck and back problems from the halti's that Dr Mugford recommends:eek:as it is unatural for a dog to have a sideways pull on their face

and dogs can be hung using a wide collar-so its the hands that hold it not the collar
 
I think that these collars should not be available to the general public but to qualified or experienced dog trainers with maybe some kind of training course as well. I think for most people they're a quick fix, a way of masking the problem without curing it. I'm sure they work for some people but for most I can imagine it to be a disaster waiting to happen.

@Dry rot dog's can injure themselves on most things. My dog was hooling round, stood in his bowl in the garden, it tipped up and whacked him. Does that mean we should get rid of water bowls. If it exists you, or an animal can be injured by it.
 
I dont think prong collars are over common, Ive yet to see one being used, but as I said in the right hands for the right dog they have a use. Dutch gags and the like I do see a lot of being used and not being used properly so I would say they are much more a problem than prong collars will ever be.

I prefer to use a Canny collar on my dogs, I hate Haltis, they ride up to the eyes and can and do cause injuries.

As I said before using Hounds as an example is not right, no one keeps 40 plus dogs together like Hounds, they are fed together,exercised together and are kept as a pack. I dont know of anyone who keeps that amount of pet dogs together.:D
 
Well, I agree with the OP and don't see much point in arguing about it.

I don't need these gadgets to train a dog so I suppose I must be doing something right.:)
 
if you lived closer i would challenge you prevent my lurcher from actively hunting feral cats:D
i wish someone could stop her it means at some yards i have worked on i have had to have eyes in the back of my head as well as elsewhere:eek:
she is a nightmare, she is ferret tame has never shown an interest but cats 'rock her boat' more than any other animal.:(
 
jools123 said:
if you lived closer i would challenge you prevent my lurcher from actively hunting feral cats:D
i wish someone could stop her it means at some yards i have worked on i have had to have eyes in the back of my head as well as elsewhere:eek:
she is a nightmare, she is ferret tame has never shown an interest but cats 'rock her boat' more than any other animal.:(
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I think you are a bit like me, a crap trainer:D my Dobes are great hunters, deer anything really.

On the other hand Ive had other breeds and mongrels which were beautifully behaved, did that make me a good trainer? no:D we dont always get it right but you just work with the dogs and their drives and if that requires gadgets sobeit.:D
 
my two terriers are as good as gold both with drop in full chase of anything from vast distances:D
i have competed at obedience, my dogs all socialise well and behave when out and about (apart from the cat thing):D
he prey drive with cats is a nightmare:eek:
 
jools123 said:
if you lived closer i would challenge you prevent my lurcher from actively hunting feral cats:D
i wish someone could stop her it means at some yards i have worked on i have had to have eyes in the back of my head as well as elsewhere:eek:
she is a nightmare, she is ferret tame has never shown an interest but cats 'rock her boat' more than any other animal.:(
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You hit the nail on the head, not all dogs are the same, be it breed/drive/behavioural traits/back ground/environment (all these factors have to be taken into consideration). Hence my non comparison statement, I dont use gagitry either lol but it does not make me superior:p, there is a big difference between someone would trains alot of dogs/all breeds/all behaviours with results not just "their own pet dogs";) (for example) then proceed to compare them to dogs with severe behavioural issues and the owners/handlers failure to get the same results they did with some non comparitable/sometimes non existent problems;). (Im probably going off subject a little) but its kinda my point in most cases:)
 
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