Proof of ownership documents for horses.

Damnation

Damnation

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Would something like this help, when a horse goes missing on Loan?

Me and a friend were discussing this the other day and we both thought, would it not be so much easier for the police to get involved if there was a legally recognised proof of ownership documents for horses that the owner kept hold of, that then needed to be signed off once the horse was sold?

It then means that if a horse was sold from underneath you whilst on loan you had documentation to proove you were infact the owner as the passport is not proof of ownership?

Obviously other things would need to be tweaked but would it help?

Late night musings really. :D
 
That's a really good idea :D

I have no idea about the legal side of things though. But it would be so much easier just having one document to prove ownership, rather than have lots of bits of paperwork which may/may not be proof :)
 
This is what we thought as even though you hold the passport, a new one can be applied for.
Could it not be a similar system to cars? It might be fiddly when going to sell a horse however, it means that if (god forbid!) your horse was sold on whilst on loan you could prove that horse was YOURS full stop!
 
Log books for cars are not proof of ownership either though :eek:, well not according to the DVLA, although the police do seem to accept registered keeper as registered owner if the car is stolen. I do wonder how you would ever proove that you had not sold your horse if it were stolen, mind you I also wonder how you would proove that you had not sold your telly or any other possession!
 
Well you do get a C5 with a car don't you? And when its sold you are supposed sign it off when you sell it to say you sold it.

Either way there must be some way of providing documentation to proove you own the horse! Its upsetting to see people that have horses stolen and get nowhere! :(

(ETA it could be a V5) :p With a telly a receipt is adequate I think? But with a horse all the police say is that you can prove you bought the horse but you could have sold the horse for cash.
 
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I think you have to try and gather as much evidence as poss - vet records, photos, a receipt for the original sale to you, and hope for the best.

It's pretty hopeless tbh.
 
Damnation said:
Well you do get a C5 with a car don't you? And when its sold you are supposed sign it off when you sell it to say you sold it.

Either way there must be some way of providing documentation to proove you own the horse! Its upsetting to see people that have horses stolen and get nowhere! :(

(ETA it could be a V5) :p With a telly a receipt is adequate I think? But with a horse all the police say is that you can prove you bought the horse but you could have sold the horse for cash.
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The V5 actually states on it that it is not proof of ownership.
The receipt point should be the same for any bought 'goods', so you could have sold your telly, just as you could have sold your horse (that was a bit the point I was making :) )
 
A passport alone OUGHT to be proof of ownership, it would make life a lot simpler.

If you have the passport and the horse is registered in your name, that's strong evidence. If your horse goes on loan and you notify the issuers of that, no one can transfer the horse into their name.

Surely that's enough.

It's the Police who need convincing. For some reason, they don't view stolen horses as a crime :(
 
Clippy said:
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It's the Police who need convincing. For some reason, they don't view stolen horses as a crime :(
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I so agree with that comment. I think it's time to start educating the police ourselves regarding horse theft. Let's face it, unless they are horse owners or riders themselves, the majority of the force wouldn't know a shetland from a shire, it's not part of their training. As owners ourselves we know the passport thing can be, um, slightly dubious, but to the police it seems to mean nothing. And unfortunately the police are the first port of call when a horse goes missing, so it's hardly suprising we don't get much, or any, help from them. The whole horse theft issue just seems to make them nervous.

I think we have to take the reins as it were and start training them. It would be a good idea to go and speak to someone in the local force, make a proper appointment, sit them down and go through the stolen horse scenario (obviously BEFORE a horse goes missing!!!!), and ask them how they would deal with it. Present them with the situation, as has happened recently, of the owner having to pay to have the horse returned with the police present...what would they have done? How can that be avoided? Do they know what a horse passport actually looks like? Basically if we don't educate them at least on the basics and make them aware of the seriousness of horse theft we'll never get the help we need from them when we need it.
 
Surely this is something for the big organisations like the BHS or the passport companies.

If enough people ask them, they could see it as a potential market. Something like a register of loan agreements with some sort of extra page in the passports to register the loan.

It would cost obviously, but I think most responsible owners and loaner would agree to pay.

Bottom line though its still a civil agreement and owners would probably have to sue. I doubt the police will want to be involved unless a stranger steals a horse from a field. But an official register might improve your chances of convincing them.
 
bws-uk have a proof of ownership documents with all there passports issued, and its to be kept seperate from the passport.
 
There is no single document that proves ownership of anything except land. Horses are no different to cars, dogs, TVs, jewellery etc.

The passport is helpful but until people keep them up to date etc they will be of limited use.

I don't think the police are any less helpful in recovering stolen horses than any other stolen property. They don't do much about stolen cars unless they get dumped or are subsequently involved in crime. They aren't to bothered about valuables stolen either, my friend had loads of valuable China stolen that was irreplaceable, police response was just to talk to insurers.
 
The KWPN also have a document for proof of ownership which they tell you to keep separate from the passport.
Though I must say the passport system over here seems to work much better than in the UK. It has to be presented at competitions if requested and they are checked regularly at competitions to ensure that vaccinations are up to date and that your details match the ones in the passport. So most people when they buy a new horse have to send away to whatever studbook it is to get the passport registered in their name as it causes a lot of problems if you don't.
Not sure anymore what happens with passports in the UK.
 
Thoughts
When you buy a horse you have 30 days to get the passport updated in your name--lots of folk dont bother and some of the PIOs are only staffed one day a month so it could be slow coming back
There have been a few instances lately where passport does not fit horse, even microchip does not fit passport--who is at fault?
One case--probably Auction mart (York) should be checking.
However bought at auction you do at least have a receipt, lots of private sales you never bother to ask for one--perhaps we should

Does everyone associate themselves with their horse on NED, add a picture or several--include you with your horse, update any scars, changes of colour?
If your horse is on loan--say so--NOT TO BE SOLD

I attended BHS Scotland Welfare conference last week and raised the issue of ownership documents. The speaker (BEVA vet) dismissed the idea as ''something else for owners to lose''
I dont think the speaker grasped the problem we see with stolen horses or stolen on loan.

Thanks showjumpingfilly, some PIOs do have ownership documents--very useful
 
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