Proper answer to the barefoot trimming post

[tallyho!]

One more thing, just as an aside... I don't see many farriers coming on here to help with problems people post?

I guess they are too busy working and that I cannot argue with. However, I know a few that have been very helpful and helped me understand the shod equine foot better, for example the 'good shoeing post'. You tend to find that experienced owners/trimmers, the latter whom also work with hooves for a living and equally as busy, who come forward with help, yet get slated by the shod mafia for even breathing.

 

[Holly Hocks]

When I told my farrier that I was taking my navicular horse barefoot, he admitted himself that I would be better with a trimmer and was looking at doing the barefoot training himself as he was very open to different ideas. He is an fabulous farrier, well educated and explained everything. (Unfortunately he has gone missing without trace - all the owners on the yard who used him have been unable to contact him for several weeks.....Jason where are you?!?!) So I use a barefoot trimmer now who I am perfectly happy with - however if I wasn't happy I would use a different trimmer or farrier. In fact some of the liveries use another farrier who also encourages horses to remain unshod. It's personal preference really - if your horses feet are fine with whoever you use, stick with them!

 

[abitodd]

That is good but it baffles me, as to why four farriers, all members of the worshipful, supposedly specialists in remedial work, could not make my horse sound?

It motivated me to do my own personal development into hooves and decided that bf is the way forward. I was right!! I have no training whatsoever!!!

And if, the bright sparks were so bright, why did they not corner the bf market 15 years ago if they knew so much about it? I know the worshipfuls were consulted on a great matter of things and because they all huffed and puffed, some people looking for alternatives had to go to US to get some help.

I Have been maintaining and fixing my own land rover engines since I was a teen. So, there

When OH started doing barefoot 15 years ago,it was unheard of in this country(although there were plenty of horses without shoes!) The owner who started him on the journey needed a professional's support to ward off welfare concerns! It was thought one could not ride a shoeless horse on tarmac. So he offered his support,having long thought that shoes were often unnecessary,and started learning. He is still learning!
So he did see barefoot as the way forward all those years ago and now has over 200 horses on his books. 70% are working horses.I would say he has cornered the market!

AND I can strip a landrover carb too.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Don't read threads you don't like it's so easy.
If you word a thread in a silly way on here newcomer or otherwise you can expect people will have a bit of fun with it.

I had no problem with the OP's thread, however some of the responses were unkind and ridiculing new members is not something I'd condone. Without encouraging new members HHO will quickly become very stale and jaded.

That's why I didn't walk away.

As the owner of 2 unshod, working horses, I get tired of some of the propaganda spoken about barefoot. Stop making it a new industry in holistic care. Some of us have been managing our horses with plenty of exercise and an appropriate diet for years. Its not rocket science, its old fashioned horse care.

 

[A Guilding]

One more thing, just as an aside... I don't see many farriers coming on here to help with problems people post?

I guess they are too busy working and that I cannot argue with. However, I know a few that have been very helpful and helped me understand the shod equine foot better, for example the 'good shoeing post'. You tend to find that experienced owners/trimmers, the latter whom also work with hooves for a living and equally as busy, who come forward with help, yet get slated by the shod mafia for even breathing.

One of the problems with being dim I struggle with the typing, But in fairness I do try to help people, sometimes behind the scenes.
I spend the first two years training an apprentice to trim and the last two years teaching them to trim better. Good trimmers make good shoers. when they can trim they can shoe.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

I had no problem with the OP's thread, however some of the responses were unkind and ridiculing new members is not something I'd condone. Without encouraging new members HHO will quickly become very stale and jaded.

That's why I didn't walk away.

As the owner of 2 unshod, working horses, I get tired of some of the propaganda spoken about barefoot. Stop making it a new industry in holistic care. Some of us have been managing our horses with plenty of exercise and an appropriate diet for years. Its not rocket science, its old fashioned horse care.

LIKE!!

 

[Marydoll]

I had no problem with the OP's thread, however some of the responses were unkind and ridiculing new members is not something I'd condone. Without encouraging new members HHO will quickly become very stale and jaded.

That's why I didn't walk away.

As the owner of 2 unshod, working horses, I get tired of some of the propaganda spoken about barefoot. Stop making it a new industry in holistic care. Some of us have been managing our horses with plenty of exercise and an appropriate diet for years. Its not rocket science, its old fashioned horse care.

like

 

[tallyho!]

One of the problems with being dim I struggle with the typing, But in fairness I do try to help people, sometimes behind the scenes.
I spend the first two years training an apprentice to trim and the last two years teaching them to trim better. Good trimmers make good shoers. when they can trim they can shoe.

Thanks A G. you have been more than helpful to many and I kinda wish I met you before all my horses problems... Why can't there be more farriers like you and abitodd's husband???

I can't help walking around looking at horses feet now, whereas a few years ago all I cared about is how cute the faces were, and I see some terrible trims with shoes slapped on. I see few bits of good work. Why are so few being trained to trim well?

Furthermore, why are the various bodies not integrating?? This could help solidify schools of thought, improve bad practice and diversify hoof care for the benefit of horses and owners alike. This is the bit I don't like. I yearn for a united approach. Why the chip on the shoulder?

 

[tallyho!]

When OH started doing barefoot 15 years ago,it was unheard of in this country(although there were plenty of horses without shoes!) The owner who started him on the journey needed a professional's support to ward off welfare concerns! It was thought one could not ride a shoeless horse on tarmac. So he offered his support,having long thought that shoes were often unnecessary,and started learning. He is still learning!
So he did see barefoot as the way forward all those years ago and now has over 200 horses on his books. 70% are working horses.I would say he has cornered the market!

AND I can strip a landrover carb too.

Genuinely glad to hear that! Why aren't his fellow farriers following suit? Would make some horses lives less of a misery....

 

[A Guilding]

Thanks A G. you have been more than helpful to many and I kinda wish I met you before all my horses problems... Why can't there be more farriers like you and abitodd's husband???

I can't help walking around looking at horses feet now, whereas a few years ago all I cared about is how cute the faces were, and I see some terrible trims with shoes slapped on. I see few bits of good work. Why are so few being trained to trim well?

Furthermore, why are the various bodies not integrating?? This could help solidify schools of thought, improve bad practice and diversify hoof care for the benefit of horses and owners alike. This is the bit I don't like. I yearn for a united approach. Why the chip on the shoulder?

Market forces and Education will change most situations. I have been a farrier for 30 years and much has changed and a lot of that recently.
When I started all you had to be was reliable and your books were full. mostly with what I call transient trade.
Then as time went on I improved the type of horses and owners I worked on, some have been a privellege to work for and an education. With that came a pressure to improve myself to serve this better client or lose them.
I have seen many farriers qualify since me and been very buisy, working hard all hours of the day and night and some good hands.
Such has been the demand from the massive numbers of horses bred there have been a massive training in apprentices, some of the trainers may have lacked the education and have not trained as well as they should. The colleges have struggled to cope with some of the poor performing ATF'S (Aproved Training Farriers) and consequently there poor performing apprentices.
The colleges have altered there stance now in an edevour to up the standard, any apprentice who fails a milestone block, at the end of each year, will have to resit the exam and if they fail again then they will be kicked off the course. This will make it difficult for poor performing ATFS to keep pushing poorly trained apprentices through the system.
The next thing is because there is more choice it is not required for people to employ unreliable poorly skilled farriers.

 

[xxMozlarxx]

DD, to be fair, a really good discussion was had from original post. I know a lot more about hobbits and legwarmers now than I did previously, and this Thai fish stuff I had never heard of... It's completely true and I have found a spa near me that has them! Just booked me n my friend in for next Saturday!

I've done the Thai fish thing...bl**dy rubbish, I'm sure they didn't train long enough...

 

[tallyho!]

Oh no... I booked it as a birthday treat too!!! Oh well, it's part of a lux pedicure treatment so even if the fish are poorly trained, might help dislodge some of my callouses!! Not that you wanted to know that

 

[rhino]

Oh no... I booked it as a birthday treat too!!! Oh well, it's part of a lux pedicure treatment so even if the fish are poorly trained, might help dislodge some of my callouses!! Not that you wanted to know that

I've been chucked out of one of those places before. No idea why

Well, maybe it was something to do with my friend (who lost a leg below the knee in an accident a few years ago) whipping his prosthesis off and then screaming 'Piranhas' at the top of his voice

I am as always surprised at how many people are happy to put up with substandard work and care from any professional. If any farrier I had used had left my horse standing 'in pools of blood' or any of the other stories we hear on a regular basis I wouldn't only be finding myself a new farrier, but I would be making a complaint to the FRC. That's why we need regulatory authorities!

Maybe I've just been lucky with farriers; my last farrier was very talented, and had won awards for both farriery and trimming. Current farrier as well as having shod a number of Olympic eventers is happy to advise having horses unshod if he feels it would be the best option for that horse.

 

[dieseldog]

And here is my answer.

1. This subject has been done to death on this forum

So I have decided to start yet another post on it

 

[tallyho!]

Rhino, I haven't put these spa standard fish to test yet... Will let you know next week...

Agree with rest of post and yes.... I should have reported the farrier who lamed my horse, but you know what? I was too scared!

 

[mountainview22]

A guilding - apologies for the hi jack, but you don't by any chance have an apprentice opportunity at the moment do you?

Chances are you've been sent my c.v and letter, maybe twice, I've sent to every single registered atf atleast once.

I would pm you but on mobile, could I be a burden and ask for some advice on gaining an apprentaship?

Thanks.

 

[Oberon]

I am as always surprised at how many people are happy to put up with substandard work and care from any professional. If any farrier I had used had left my horse standing 'in pools of blood' or any of the other stories we hear on a regular basis I wouldn't only be finding myself a new farrier, but I would be making a complaint to the FRC. That's why we need regulatory authorities!

It was my horse left standing in pools of blood.

In those days (2006), I believed the farrier was the expert and I did not have a right to comment. I had only a basic knowledge on hooves and has no confidence to speak up or even question. The farrier could have blagged me with any old pseudo babble and I would have swallowed it.

However, it kicked me into going and learning what I could.

Said farrier is well known and respected in the area and also heavily involved in the local Hunt.

I have seen him lame a horse out of (we believe) sheer spite when the owner dared to ask him to shorten the toe a bit. £200 vet's bill and the horse's pain later and the farrier made it clear to the owner that it wasn't her place to suggest anything.

Owner is now terrified to open her mouth. If the she walks away to another farrier and he is worse than that...where else can she turn?

 

[abitodd]

Genuinely glad to hear that! Why aren't his fellow farriers following suit? Would make some horses lives less of a misery....

Many are. However they often come up against owners who are unable or unwilling to make changes in diet and management and because these people are using a farrier rather than a trimmer,its easy for them to revert to shoes if the going get tough. Couple this with cashflow(in an ideal world,horses trim their own feet and only need checking by an expert every few months) and the fact that farriers are reluctant to charge a decent price for a trim. So it makes more sense to shoe horses,unless you are one of the few who are so passionate about the natural capabilities of the hoof that you don't mind not earning much!!!!!!!

 

[paddy555]

It was my horse left standing in pools of blood.

In those days (2006), I believed the farrier was the expert and I did not have a right to comment. I had only a basic knowledge on hooves and has no confidence to speak up or even question. The farrier could have blagged me with any old pseudo babble and I would have swallowed it.

However, it kicked me into going and learning what I could.

Said farrier is well known and respected in the area and also heavily involved in the local Hunt.

I have seen him lame a horse out of (we believe) sheer spite when the owner dared to ask him to shorten the toe a bit. £200 vet's bill and the horse's pain later and the farrier made it clear to the owner that it wasn't her place to suggest anything.

Owner is now terrified to open her mouth. If the she walks away to another farrier and he is worse than that...where else can she turn?

How did your horse come to be standing in blood? I am struggling to understand.

 

[Hollycatt]

I just want to say if I offended OP or anyone else on the last thread that was not my intent. I just thought it was a bit of Friday night fun. If I offended I am sorry.

I have used both trimmers and farriers. Over the years have has shod and unshod horses. The main difference for me has always been the attitude of the trimmer/farrier concerned, as skills can be learned if that trimmer/farrier wants to be good at their job and do CPD etc. The best farrier I have seen had taken the time to learn about barefoot horses. He gave advice on nutrition, always walked and trotted the horse up before and after the trim (only farrier I have ever seen do this) and was polite, on time and always returned calls. Worst farrier (dumped after one trim when he terrified my youngster) was later in the year shoeing yearlings and 2 year olds (warmbloods) on all 4 feet as their feet apparently were not able to stand up to hard summer ground My warmblood, on same diet and paddocks as the rest, was just fine and had wonderful feet with no chipping and was not sore. Obviously once I had got rid of the bad farriers sorry ass! Best trimmer was the one that took time to help my youngster recover trust after being frightened by aforementioned terrible farrier. Worst trimmer was someone considered God on this and other forums, who although did a nice trim was arrogant, rude and self entitled. Up to 3 hours late with no warning, apology or comment (well except to say I was privillaged to have them do my horse ) and was quickly replaced by exceptionally good farrier who charged half the cost and was just as good technically.

I also think it is not so easy to read up for info on the internet regarding nutrition etc. Not everything on the internet is true, and if you go down the wrong path it can be an expensive mistake. It is a real shame there is not one, well regulated governing body with specialities so that it is easy to find someone to look after your horses feet without all the current pitfalls. This includes vets that are experts on rehab as I have seen some awful horse vets. Including one from a big well known clinic that recommended feeding only hay and bran mash (daily) for a horse on 8 weeks box rest as the owner had mentioned the horse was a good doer - errrrr - yes very nutritionally sound advice

 

[cptrayes]

How did your horse come to be standing in blood? I am struggling to understand.

A farrier cut into its foot in a routine shoeing Paddy555. Two different farriers have done it to mine as well. One by taking out a toe clip notch so deep he went through the white line. he had brought shoes that were too small because he did not believe the measurements that I gave him, and in trying to get too small a shoe on, that's what he did. Blood splodges all over the floor.The other sliced the sides of another horse's frog and left it bleeding from heel to point down both sides. Again, bloody frog prints all over the floor. Neither farrier apologised, they just tried to turn away and pretend that it hadn't happened, just like the farrier fitting a remedial heart-bar who pricked my horse. Pricking is an occupational hazard, but an apology would have helped. Everyone makes mistakes, but many farriers do themselves no favours with their lack of customer management skills

 

[tallyho!]

Many are. However they often come up against owners who are unable or unwilling to make changes in diet and management and because these people are using a farrier rather than a trimmer,its easy for them to revert to shoes if the going get tough. Couple this with cashflow(in an ideal world,horses trim their own feet and only need checking by an expert every few months) and the fact that farriers are reluctant to charge a decent price for a trim. So it makes more sense to shoe horses,unless you are one of the few who are so passionate about the natural capabilities of the hoof that you don't mind not earning much!!!!!!!

Why though? If the trimming is the most important part, why charge just for the shoeing? Both involve a tremendous amount of skill, honed over years, yet why shortchange themselves? No business would dream of doing that nowadays?

Look at the rest of the services in the equestrian world. The whole market is worth about 4.3billion/pa! Bet most of it is on expensive transport, leatherwork, lorinery and clothing (horse & rider)... yet, those who keep the horses on it's feet charge pennies in comparison! You can buy a Joules or Mark Todd t-shirt for MORE than a decent TRIM!!! Rockers if you ask me... a completely undervalued profession and one that needs to mend some holes in it's trousers.

 

[Oberon]

How did your horse come to be standing in blood? I am struggling to understand.

Can you see the natural indentation to the toe?

It is bilateral and quite common in draft horses (as my trimmer explained within minutes of seeing them). It's caused by a similar 'dimple' to the coffin bone and is normal for the horse.

The farrier's apprentice decided to go 'digging for gold' in not one, but both front hooves under the watchful eye of the farrier. This was during a routine trim to a healthy horse.

I was holding the lead rope but mustn't have been watching what he was doing - something I kick myself for.
I knew nothing about it until I saw him standing in pools of blood. The farrier just said, "It's a very vascular area" and dismissed us

 

[tallyho!]

Oberon, is that what is called hyperkeratinised horn?? My new filly has it but only in one hoof. She is 10mo and it could still show up in other one but so far, managing well with it.

 

[paddy555]

Can you see the natural indentation to the toe?

It is bilateral and quite common in draft horses (as my trimmer explained within minutes of seeing them). It's caused by a similar 'dimple' to the coffin bone and is normal for the horse.

The farrier's apprentice decided to go 'digging for gold' in not one, but both front hooves under the watchful eye of the farrier. This was during a routine trim to a healthy horse.

I was holding the lead rope but mustn't have been watching what he was doing - something I kick myself for.
I knew nothing about it until I saw him standing in pools of blood. The farrier just said, "It's a very vascular area" and dismissed us

yes I see them every day in one of ours. Pete Ramey called them "divots".
Makes you wonder why the farrier was not supervising the apprentice on his digging spree. From reading this and CPT's post there seems lots of bleeding in this shoeing malarchy!! glad we manage without.

 

[cptrayes]

Oberon, is that what is called hyperkeratinised horn?? My new filly has it but only in one hoof. She is 10mo and it could still show up in other one but so far, managing well with it.

I don't know what it is made of TH but it is extremely common in all types of bigger horses. It's usually smaller than that, but it's a "pip" out of the toe callous right at the centre. I too have read that it is matched by a notch on the point of the pedal bone P3. I can't speak for smaller horses, because I never buy them

 

[Brightbay]

I don't know what it is made of TH but it is extremely common in all types of bigger horses. It's usually smaller than that, but it's a "pip" out of the toe callous right at the centre. I too have read that it is matched by a notch on the point of the pedal bone P3. I can't speak for smaller horses, because I never buy them

Fascinating! My 17hh horse has them, I always wondered what they were, as they don't appear in any diagrams of hoof anatomy that I've seen. Thank you for posting that

 

[tallyho!]

Don't worry, not really clear but have been doing a tiny bit of reading on HKH. Kc had a nice article on it. Thanks

Sorry to digress!

 

[paddy555]

for any hoof anoraks who, like me, need to get a life on a Sat night this has a few points about the divots. Rick Burten is a US farrier.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126474&page=4

 

[abitodd]

Why though? If the trimming is the most important part, why charge just for the shoeing? Both involve a tremendous amount of skill, honed over years, yet why shortchange themselves? No business would dream of doing that nowadays?

Look at the rest of the services in the equestrian world. The whole market is worth about 4.3billion/pa! Bet most of it is on expensive transport, leatherwork, lorinery and clothing (horse & rider)... yet, those who keep the horses on it's feet charge pennies in comparison! You can buy a Joules or Mark Todd t-shirt for MORE than a decent TRIM!!! Rockers if you ask me... a completely undervalued profession and one that needs to mend some holes in it's trousers.

HA! Tell me about it! It may just be this particular area(South West) but there are too many people doing horses on a budget who would rather spend their money on leatherwork,clothing etc, rather than their horse's feet!
You would not go into a motorbike shop and say....'I rescued this bike,I have 2 others to keep on the road. Its only a little bike so can you do me half price tyres,because I really can't afford my hobby.'

Having said that,there are also excellent clients who insist on paying more than the asking price because they value the skill and knowledge they receive. (I have to say this attitude is more prevailant amongst barefoot owners.)
Off to find my body protector and helmet.