Proposals for police dogs to protect Parliament

M

Moobli

...
Joined
13 June 2013
Messages
6,142
Visit site
I think it is a good idea so long as the dogs are adequately trained and wear stab-proof vests as standard.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...fter-westminster-terror-rampage-a3532746.html





Police dogs could be used to protect Parliament after PC Keith Palmer was killed in the Westminster terrorist attack in March.

The dogs would be deployed to help officers at the weakest points of the building – which include the gates through which terrorist Khalid Masood ran during the attack.

Sir Paul Beresford, former chairman of the Commons administration committee, said he believes that PC Palmer could have been saved if he had been stationed with trained attack dogs, reports the Sunday Times.

"If we'd had a dog there PC Palmer might have been saved,” he said.

He added: “If some idiot who is not a terrorist runs in, and there are a few of those out there, the dog will drop them and they won’t be shot.”

Mr Beresford said the introduction of the animals was being “seriously considered”.

He said: “The gates have to be open when MPs are coming in to vote, but we recognise it is a chink in the armour.”

Other plans being considered include stronger vehicle barriers around the Parliament building and measures to keep pedestrians further away.

A Parliamentary spokesman said: “Two reviews have now been commissioned into the perimeter security at Parliament and into the Houses’ response following the incident on March 22.

"Both reviews have encouraged and sought the views of those on the estate on that day and from the public.

"This feedback will be considered in detail along with other evidence.”

PC Palmer was stabbed to death by Masood after the attacker ploughed into pedestrians on Westminster Bridge, killing four and injuring dozens more.
 
I find the comments a bit naive to be honest. Arming the police would make more sense IMO.

The dogs needed for the above mentioned scenario would not be the type of dogs we see on the street doing crowd control and general purpose work. The margin for error would be huge. They're not machines.
 
The dogs mentioned should be the type of dogs used in tactical firearms operations and would need a higher level of training for dog and handler.

Arming the police is another option, but until the powers that be start to see the armed police as a viable option in a public situation and not treat any officer who pulls the trigger as a suspect until proven innocent then I can't see it happening.
 
Dogs which are above and beyond the capabilities of most handlers, don't have a leave command trained (too bad for the not-terrorist) and wouldn't really be suited to hanging around in a busy, crowded, urban environment waiting for something to kick off. A raid is a raid, you generally get a bit of notice that it's going to happen.

JMO.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Dogs which are above and beyond the capabilities of most handlers, don't have a leave command trained (too bad for the not-terrorist) and wouldn't really be suited to hanging around in a busy, crowded, urban environment waiting for something to kick off. A raid is a raid, you generally get a bit of notice that it's going to happen.

JMO.
Click to expand...

I agree this kind of dog would be beyond the capability of some handlers - not most. Perhaps I just know some exceptional handlers and instructors. The tactical firearms dogs I know do have an (excellent) out command and are much more highly trained (and motivated) than many average GP dogs. It could work imo - it would just need the right combination of dog/handler and some forethought as to where and how they would be placed and deployed.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I find the comments a bit naive to be honest. Arming the police would make more sense IMO.

The dogs needed for the above mentioned scenario would not be the type of dogs we see on the street doing crowd control and general purpose work. The margin for error would be huge. They're not machines.
Click to expand...

I find your post very naive, I assume the dogs would be deployed with a handler, not left to roam the building. I don't know about using dogs for crowd control, that is not something I am aware of, thought they used horses.
No point in arming every police officer, all we need do is surround parliament with a 2500v electric fence, or move them all to the Isle of Skye.
 
Last edited:
Do they get deployed often? The train of thought used to be that you're better in those situations to not have an out and remove the dog manually. Coming off at the wrong time (in a very loud, confusing situation) could be very dangerous for everyone.

You're just going to get people plotting how to take the dog out as well as the person.
 
I have just spoken to a friend who is a Met police dog handler and he says that any of their Trojan trained dogs are capable of taking out a marauding knifeman. The purpose of the attack dogs will be for different scenarios not in public areas like Westminster (and will be nothing to do with the current dog section). If it does happen, the dogs won't be trained by the Met dog section or affilated with them, nor will the handlers be from their unit.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Exploding Chestnuts said:
I find your post very naive, I assume the dogs would be deployed with a handler, not left to roam the building. I don't know about using dogs for crowd control, that is not something I am aware of, thought they used horses.
No point in arming every police officer, all we need do is surround parliament with a 2500v electric fence, or move them all to the Isle of Skye.
Click to expand...

Lol. Obviously with a handler. Police dogs are often deployed at football matches and riots. Hence crowd control. Police are routinely armed in another part of the UK where there have been frequent terrorism incidents.
 
There will already be armed police available, and there are plenty in places of strategic importance, but there is no call for arming of all police, and even if there was, it would not necessarily stop the determined person with a knife.
 
Last edited:
WorkingGSD said:
I have just spoken to a friend who is a Met police dog handler and he says that any of their Trojan trained dogs are capable of taking out a marauding knifeman. The purpose of the attack dogs will be for different scenarios not in public areas like Westminster (and will be nothing to do with the current dog section). If it does happen, the dogs won't be trained by the Met dog section or affilated with them, nor will the handlers be from their unit.
Click to expand...

Sorry just noticed the edit. I assumed it would be a totally separate unit. That explanation makes more sense than the comments in the above linked article.
 
There are and have been for some years now, armed POs on duty at the HoC, permanently. There are also dogs in attendance. Siege dogs, though probably not on duty as standbys are quickly available, should they be needed. Siege dogs are those which will enter a room with the sole intent of attacking anyone who's in front of them regardless of who they may be. The idea and the important point is that they are a distraction and they are followed in, immediately by armed officers. Should the dog subsequently turn on the officers behind them, those who've probably discharged a firearm at a criminal, then they are sacrificed and shot. Better a dead dog than a dead copper, is the argument and it's the right approach.

Siege dogs aren't trained as such and they tend to be sourced from those in training which have a couple of bolts loose, and such dogs never have access to the public. There is little or no control of them because none's needed, they will most probably be shot anyway in a live event.

Whoever wrote that article is about 20 years out of date! :)

Alec.
 
So, working animals with very limited prospects of a retirement to a normal home? Sad. At least police horses are highly sought after when they leave duty.

Understand the logic of the siege dogs as described by AS but if they are effectively no more discriminating than a smoke bomb (not technical term but you know what I mean) then would rather see safe-ish-but-distracting ones of those/similar non animal/human distractions used as there can't be many circs where you could get a large dog but not another distraction into a room.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Do they get deployed often? The train of thought used to be that you're better in those situations to not have an out and remove the dog manually. Coming off at the wrong time (in a very loud, confusing situation) could be very dangerous for everyone.

You're just going to get people plotting how to take the dog out as well as the person.
Click to expand...

The number of times dogs are deployed in the type on incidents that require their set of skills will depends on the Force in question.

Firearms support dogs, just like GP, all have out commands. However, the firearms dogs are encouraged to stay on the arm longer with distractions going on as quite often there will be lots of shouting from the firearms teams at the suspect and the last thing you want is either the dog coming off the suspect and reattaching itself to a member of the team because he/she is shouting and being aggressive nor do you want the dog to have thought he heard an out command during all the shouting and drop off. So the handlers usually move up and take the dog off in firearms situation.
 
Alec Swan said:
There are and have been for some years now, armed POs on duty at the HoC, permanently. There are also dogs in attendance. Siege dogs, though probably not on duty as standbys are quickly available, should they be needed. Siege dogs are those which will enter a room with the sole intent of attacking anyone who's in front of them regardless of who they may be. The idea and the important point is that they are a distraction and they are followed in, immediately by armed officers. Should the dog subsequently turn on the officers behind them, those who've probably discharged a firearm at a criminal, then they are sacrificed and shot. Better a dead dog than a dead copper, is the argument and it's the right approach.

Siege dogs aren't trained as such and they tend to be sourced from those in training which have a couple of bolts loose, and such dogs never have access to the public. There is little or no control of them because none's needed, they will most probably be shot anyway in a live event.

Whoever wrote that article is about 20 years out of date! :)

Alec.
Click to expand...

Not sure where your information is from Alec (possibly the continent?) but no UK forces currently have "siege" dogs. Trojan or firearms support dogs will locate a suspect and bark and will be recalled by the handler on contact with the suspect. Siege dogs are what are called attack dogs in the UK and they are coming soon...
 
GirlFriday said:
So, working animals with very limited prospects of a retirement to a normal home? Sad. At least police horses are highly sought after when they leave duty.

Understand the logic of the siege dogs as described by AS but if they are effectively no more discriminating than a smoke bomb (not technical term but you know what I mean) then would rather see safe-ish-but-distracting ones of those/similar non animal/human distractions used as there can't be many circs where you could get a large dog but not another distraction into a room.
Click to expand...

The majority of operational police dogs are retired to their handlers, where they live the rest of their lives out as pets. If, for whatever reason, the handler cannot keep his/her retiring dog there are almost always offers from family, friends or members of the general public.

I don't know if the military have changed their stance on rehoming working dogs who are trained to bite, but I know they used to be pts :(
 
Fifteen years ago Warwickshire & West Midlands police had 'take out' dogs; these were dogs (predominantly rottweilers) who were trained to take out individuals. They also did an experiment with a Russian Black Terrier (Mig) who was awesome in action. The dogs wore stab jackets as standard and frequently trained at night around the disused GEC factories in the area.

The modus operandi, as mentioned above, was better a dead dog than a dead human. So, the proposals are nothing really new.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top