Pros and cons of Competition Horse Breeding

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NR99

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Struggling to get to the end of the day *yawn* so have been virtual horse shopping as we have decided we will shortly add to our brood.

We have always bought Irish Horses apart from a French TB but we were wondering about other breeds and their strengths, weaknesses and character.

Basically we are looking for an allrounder for a mother/daughter share. Mum gets priority and is no longer as brave as she used to be :rolleyes: so would like to do some Dressage, hacking and maybe some hunting and daughter is far more gung ho so would like to event along with the dressage, though she already has a main horse so this would be just an additional one for a jolly now and then so although she might like it to be capable of JRN it doesn't have to be ;).

Have seen some other breeds, Hanoverian, Dutch & Polish Warmblood - any body got any thoughts good or bad or should we just stick with what we know?:confused:
 
The only thing I have found with some of the "highly bred" sport horses is they are bred from young dam's/sire's based on the breeding instead of temperament/soundness etc. Therefore you get horses that look fantastic, but could of inherited genetic weaknesses that aren't detected in the parents until the horse is born and it's too late! Also a lot are bred for performance, so aren't suitable for amateur riders...

However, there are also hundreds of lovely highly bred horses that will make superb allrounders..... :D
 
I would always think very carefully if you're not used to sports horses as they are a total different ball game to an all rounder.

I always keep an eye on the van overis stud as they often have some nice youngsters but having just watched video mantages of a youngster bought by someone over here I have changed my mind as its behaviour was the sort not many people could have coped with. Am not saying they are all like that but it illustrates how you can't get carried away with the romance of a good looking horse and not fully appreciate what their trainability and temperement can involve.

If your mum is a happy hacker and wants something routine i'd think very carefully about taking on a WB unless its an older proven horse.
 
All the WB I've come into contact with have all been nice to look at and talented but either quite sharp and quirky or mind numbingly boring and stupid. I reckon stick to your classic ID x TB for fun but sane and flexibility in terms of discipline.
 
ID or native x TB sounds the sort you want although I would keep an open mind. TB x connie is an excellent cross.
 
Warmbloods get such a bad press but there are some nice ones out there. After all, surely the original idea of warmblood breeding was to get the athleticism of the hot blooded breeds and the calmness and trainability of the more cold blooded ones.

When we were looking for a horse for my 13 year old daughter we kept an open mind on breeding, but envisaged getting a native x TB or an Irish type, but ended up with a warmblood. In theory he is by a KWPN stallion out of a Selle Francais mare, but the stallion is actually half Selle Francais himself, so our horse is really 3/4 Selle Francais.

He had only showjumped when we got him five months ago, but since then he has been to Pony Club rallies and camp, done a musical ride, been placed in hunter trials and dressage and turned out to be a good hunter too. Plus hacks out alone and in company.

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So I definitely wouldn't discount a warmblood if the temperament was right!
 
Obviously, it depends on the individual so you can't generalise by breed BUT, that said, big competition books/breeders breed what they do for a reason and it's USUALLY targeted at the top end of the sport (WBFSH rankings and the like) rather than for the amateur/all around market. The sort of ridability that people are breeding for at that level is not always what the average rider needs and I think often those horses get a bad rap because people don't understand they're not being "bad", they're just unfit for purpose.

BUT there are breeders who do have an eye on that market and purposefully use lines that are suitable for the rider who wants a reasonably talented but "user friendly" horse. I used to work for a big Trakehner stud and one stallion in particular produced very easy horses that weren't huge movers but balanced and athletic enough for almost everyone's needs. Another stallion they had, with a top eventing pedigree, produced big moving, big jumping, sharp horse not at all suitable for most everyday tasks. Same breed, totally different ends of the type spectrum. Someone familiar with a particular studbook could probably assess a pedigree for an intended task but the average rider doesn't usually see enough of one family to be able to judge accurately.

It's a bit of a problem that no one keeps stats on good "family" horses - I'm sure there are lines and breeders out there reliably producing horses for this market but it's very hard to track!

As oldvic says though, many of the crossbreds will more reliably produce a "go everywhere, do everything" sort of horse. Depending on the bits you get from each side, obviously!
 
Interesting points, TS and I must add that our boy's dam was actually a 'family horse', although successful herself and from good jumping lines.
 
Just a point to note.

A TB (Hot Blood) x with a Draught Horse (Cold Blood) produces a Warmblood. Thus an TB crossed with an ID (Irish Draught) produces a Warmblood. Do not doubt that an IDXTB is a warmblood.

There are good and bad in every breed. I personally have had enough nappy, backward thinking IDxTB to never wish for another one to cross my yard entrance! However if it jumped Grand Prix I would have to eat my words and let it in!!!

Just try everything carefully and check out as much as you can before you buy anything.
 
Thanks everyone, interesting feedback.

LHS - I am the Mum, not quite a Happy Hacker yet my 18yo chestnut mare is far from sane ;) just jumping has always been our thing but now I quite fancy being a diva and having some bling and matchy matchy gear and will jump for fun hunting but don't want the pressure (nor the hanging around) of show jumping.

To be fair both mares ID/TB and ISH are quirky, quirky is fine but loony isn't so good - also really wonder about soundness issues with the various breeds and Kat makes a valid point. Lazy warmbloods not a problem either as both DD and I have electric seats apparently, if there is such a thing and lazy is not normally a problem. I guess what we need to do is go and see a variety and keep an open mind.

There is a really nice horse in Cornwall I am hoping to go and see that we both feel is a pretty good match to what we want and belongs to a fellow HHO member just persuading the other half that it is not necessary to have looked at what else is on the market nearby first to have something to compare on what he get's for his hard earned dosh :) cheeky beggar I actually earn more than him!

Thanks again everyone.
 
sport horse said:
Just a point to note.

A TB (Hot Blood) x with a Draught Horse (Cold Blood) produces a Warmblood. Thus an TB crossed with an ID (Irish Draught) produces a Warmblood. Do not doubt that an IDXTB is a warmblood.
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Technically true (and I agree with everything else you said :)) but the "big" books of the WBFSH are many generations from that cross with the idea that there is now much more consistency or type and ability to predict the outcome of specific "nicks". A first generation cross can get you pretty much any combination of factors!

Also, some books have never had "heavy" horses as we understand them in the mix, but are based on carriage or cavalry horses. So really, there isn't much "steadying influence" at all in those horses! (My favourite Trakehner joke is they're a whole breed based on horses bred to run head first into bayonets!" :D )
 
WB tag can be fairly misleading as well.

Both of my home-breds are WB by registry (KWPN) but actually 2/3 TB by blood as Mum is 7/8TB and sire has quite a good percentage of TB in his bloodlines as well.
Both have amateur friendly temperaments (I didn't want something that would kill me!) but are physically more talented for dressage than Mum.
Mum was bred to event but hated the SJing bit and went to Inter I level in dressage, 4yo daughter looks and moves like a dressage horse, has great ground speed but has no real enthusiasm for jumping (although did clear the field fence while dressed in a full neck winter rug as a 2yo :rolleyes: so no lack of ability).
5 month old colt foal moves well for dressage, is VERY fast over the ground and loves jumping - he was a bit feral when he came home from stud so we herded him from field to stable at first, his entertainment was to abandon Mum and jump back and forth over the railway sleepers that border our outdoor arena. Never misses his stride. Wish in some ways I could keep him for eventing, but he was bred to sell and not sure my back would take the SJing/XC now. Having said that he's not sold yet so might manage to find an excuse to keep him!
 
With Hanoverians you know the stallion has been vetted and xrayed and ridden under saddle and the mare has been inspected and graded. ST PR or Elite mares have also been tested under saddle . A large percentage of the stallions marks are for willingnes to work and temprement. So you know both sides have been examined and with most studbooks there is no mare examination and no stallion testing under saddle. There are 15000 Hanoverian foals in Germany each year and several hundred in the Uk. There are many well tested horses out there and many at very reasonalble prices not the escalted values to see claimed. Try to buy from a private owner who has handled the horse from birth and avoid dealers yards where horses come and go. Ring the studbook and ask for information they often have very detailed info on competition results and number of coverings and number of foals. I have detailed knowledge of warmbloods bought on the continent and then appearing with Irish passports of no known breeding. (Red Baron).
 
Im looking for a new horse at the moment and went to see a WB in September. Owner said it had done some hunting but it was so nappy going to the field to school and bucking walking round the school that I immediately gave up. So thats put me off WBs.

Are hanovarians any saner?
 
While I agree that on the continent the stallions are tested and the mares graded, it doesn't necessarily prevent soundness issues or mean that the progeny will have the ambition/ability to be what we want them to be, any more than putting an oaks winner to a derby winner will definitely make a champion racehorse.
There are plenty of stallions with continental pedigrees standing in Ireland as well as the ones with more traditional irish breeding so really it doesn't matter where the horse comes from, it is how it performs that counts and changing the nationality of the passport is not going to turn a 1* horse into a 3* one.
 
No feeling on breed or type personally as long as it does the intended job without too much trouble. The analogy i like to use when amateurs (and very amateur ones at that!) try to blind me with foreign studbook info is: 'Buying Tiger Wood's golf clubs won't make my husband win at St Andrews.....'
 
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Baggybreeches said:
No feeling on breed or type personally as long as it does the intended job without too much trouble. The analogy i like to use when amateurs (and very amateur ones at that!) try to blind me with foreign studbook info is: 'Buying Tiger Woods golf clubs won't make my husband win at St Andrews.....'
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BB - love the golf clubs analogy :D
 
I have a Belgian warmblood. I don't understand all this warmblood malarkey. All his ancestors are German - Holsteiners and Hanoverians - but he is a Belgian Warmblood.

He is mardy, moody, spooky, sharp, bites me every day and chews everything in sight. Scared of everything and allergic to everything.

He also jumps fab.

I love warmbloods and wouldn't have anything else now. I think they are very beautiful horses - elegant and powerful but not skinny.

But they can be sharp and temperamental.
 
I know about the golf clubs but it gives you more confidence if you look the part. The Irish point is that someone saw an Irish dealer bin 6 warmblood passports with the comment "I cannot sell Irish Sports Horses with no known breeding but not warmbloods" so there may not be as much Irish as you suspect. (name supplied).
 
sywell said:
I know about the golf clubs but it gives you more confidence if you look the part. The Irish point is that someone saw an Irish dealer bin 6 warmblood passports with the comment "I cannot sell Irish Sports Horses with no known breeding but not warmbloods" so there may not be as much Irish as you suspect. (name supplied).
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Food for thought? :confused:

Thing is I have had 5 "Irish" horses and they have all been good in their speciality and nice to deal with, so perhaps we should stick with what we are used to?
 
sywell said:
I know about the golf clubs but it gives you more confidence if you look the part. The Irish point is that someone saw an Irish dealer bin 6 warmblood passports with the comment "I cannot sell Irish Sports Horses with no known breeding but not warmbloods" so there may not be as much Irish as you suspect. (name supplied).
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I assume you mean he can sell irish with no known breeding. Maybe there is a reason why he can't sell warmbloods. There is no proof but I suspect that, to be good in competition, warmbloods need to be quite sharp and perhaps a little tricky whereas irish can be but don't need that so much. This is a generalisation and there will be cases on both sides to disprove this theory but the more competitive warmbloods that I have dealt with are as a rule more tricky than the traditional irish bred horses.
 
As a generalisation I have always found traditionally bred irish horses to be more straightforward and forgiving, and also happy to think for themselves without a need to combine that with sharpness. They tend, in my experience, to be sounder as well, and easier to work through any issues and therefore more suited to non professionals.
 
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