chaps89
Well-Known Member
Really odd question given protexin gut balancer is to settle tummies but has anyone ever had a horse get an upset tummy on it?
Protexin and upset tummy
- Thread starter chaps89
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magicmoments
Well-Known Member
Only had one horse on it, and no not had an adverse reaction.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I have used it for years I have never had an adverse reaction .
Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
Yes. I started a thread on here 'Winter faecal water syndrome' and asked a similar question.
It appears my old cob can't cope with a high fibre diet. Since switching to a small bran mash and a handful of Alfa A, his problems have cleared. Can't blame the Pink Mash, but he was as bad on that as he was on Fast Fibre.
It appears my old cob can't cope with a high fibre diet. Since switching to a small bran mash and a handful of Alfa A, his problems have cleared. Can't blame the Pink Mash, but he was as bad on that as he was on Fast Fibre.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Probiotics can sometimes speed up bowel transit times and cause looser poops - temporarily usually.
I’d give a daily dosing for a week, monitor poops, and if they remain loose caused by probiotics, stop after week and monitor.
I’d give a daily dosing for a week, monitor poops, and if they remain loose caused by probiotics, stop after week and monitor.
Wheresthehoofpick
Well-Known Member
Yes!
I have sworn by it for years (and still use it for the dog!) but one I had it just seemed to make things worse. Pink powder was even worse.
maxwell gut health was a game changer for him.
chaps89
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies.
Doesn’t seem to be the protexin causing our issues, thought it might be to start as his tummy dried up when I ran out of it but it didn’t last. Clutching at straws really I suspect!
Doesn’t seem to be the protexin causing our issues, thought it might be to start as his tummy dried up when I ran out of it but it didn’t last. Clutching at straws really I suspect!
PurBee
Well-Known Member
The only other thing that caused very loose worrying bowels with mine was a brand of haylage. Further enquiries lead me to believe it was a high nitrate batch of haylage - from having a heavy dose of NPK during fertilising the field in spring.
I changed their forage source and bowels returned to normal. Have you tried a forage change?
chaps89
Well-Known Member
I’ve tried dry, freshly soaked and soaked-then-drained hay and 2 totally different types/batches of hay.
I genuinely can’t find the pattern as to why he is sometimes passing normal droppings and no liquid, sometimes his droppings are normal but followed by liquid and other times he does cow pats.
He’s very well and bright in himself but despite getting around 6-7kg hay a day (he’s an 11.2hh pony!) and turnout (there is grass, they have to work for it now but it’s not a mud pit) he’s only put on 15kg since early Dec and I suspect the upset tummy is a part of that.
Although he doesn’t get particularly calorific bucket feed and my hay is very low sugar so I wouldn’t expect him to put loads on but it does seem to be less than I expect.
He is a cushings pony but it’s well controlled on half a tablet a day.
I just feel bad as an upset tummy can’t be nice for him, nor can having his bottom washed in winter!
I genuinely can’t find the pattern as to why he is sometimes passing normal droppings and no liquid, sometimes his droppings are normal but followed by liquid and other times he does cow pats.
He’s very well and bright in himself but despite getting around 6-7kg hay a day (he’s an 11.2hh pony!) and turnout (there is grass, they have to work for it now but it’s not a mud pit) he’s only put on 15kg since early Dec and I suspect the upset tummy is a part of that.
Although he doesn’t get particularly calorific bucket feed and my hay is very low sugar so I wouldn’t expect him to put loads on but it does seem to be less than I expect.
He is a cushings pony but it’s well controlled on half a tablet a day.
I just feel bad as an upset tummy can’t be nice for him, nor can having his bottom washed in winter!
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Maybe gut infection? Though i’d expect him to be somewhat withdrawn than normal self. Its a possibility if grazing is low, more exposure to soil bacteria ingestion.
A tummy bug kinda fits the sometimes loose poop, sometimes more solid poop profile too, as hay bulking feed times in a way act like a gut ‘broom’ and would disturb the bacterial colonies forming on the gut wall, then during down times of not eating so heavily, the bacteria can recolonise, interfering with gut wall absorption of water, so the start of some feeds literally pass along without moisture being absorbed until enough hay passes through and ‘sweep’ away gut wall bacteria somewhat by bulk hay feed passing through. If that makes sense…i can visualise the process but not explaining it well!
Sometimes probiotics are used in cases of gut infections as the good bugs can kill the bad by suffocating them in numbers simply by multiplying fast, but youve tried protexin.
Did the loose stools absolutely start when protexin was first used…or did you try protexin due to loose stools?
A tummy bug kinda fits the sometimes loose poop, sometimes more solid poop profile too, as hay bulking feed times in a way act like a gut ‘broom’ and would disturb the bacterial colonies forming on the gut wall, then during down times of not eating so heavily, the bacteria can recolonise, interfering with gut wall absorption of water, so the start of some feeds literally pass along without moisture being absorbed until enough hay passes through and ‘sweep’ away gut wall bacteria somewhat by bulk hay feed passing through. If that makes sense…i can visualise the process but not explaining it well!
Sometimes probiotics are used in cases of gut infections as the good bugs can kill the bad by suffocating them in numbers simply by multiplying fast, but youve tried protexin.
Did the loose stools absolutely start when protexin was first used…or did you try protexin due to loose stools?
Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
I started a thread a little while back asking about 'Winter faecal water syndrome' which seems to echo what you are seeing.
Eventually, I cut out all high fibre bucket feed (Fast Fibre or Pink Mash), and replaced it with a stubbs scoop of bran and two handfuls of Alfa A dampened and split between two buckets. His balancer went into this as well. In addition I stopped soaking his forage, and the water cleared up within a week. It would appear that some horses cannot cope with a high fibre diet; mine has previously been diagnosed as EMS. Hope this helps.
chaps89
Well-Known Member
I read that thread Thankyou 
it seems like a lot of things that what works for one horse doesn’t for another.
I’m not sure if a tummy bug fits - he’s with me on a sort of retirement livery, his owner warned me he had a sensitive tummy when he arrived and that he gets the protexin gut fix tube at worming time etc and sometimes has spells of upset tummy. If it was a bug I don’t think it would be an ongoing thing (over years)?
What’s odd is he was fine till mid-Jan then it started and other than an occasional dry day or two he’s been bad since. Nothing changed around then either.
He’s also getting food aggressive again so somethings not working.
He had full panel of bloods in November which were apparently normal, and just had annual jabs and cushings test done.
The vet suggested psyllium and said it might just be how he is.
Unfortunately I have to give soaked hay as my other one is obese (I advertised for a good doer that needed restriction - his owner said that’s what he is but he turned up looking like a hat rack so I’m trying to muddle through to spring when I’m hoping Dr Green will help)
Interesting about high fibre maybe being problematic, I’d have thought it might be the other way round. Owner has been very good with my suggestions so far but I don’t want to take over or push it. Might see if I can beg/borrow/steal a small amount of bran off someone before committing to a whole bag and finding it doesn’t work ?
it seems like a lot of things that what works for one horse doesn’t for another.I’m not sure if a tummy bug fits - he’s with me on a sort of retirement livery, his owner warned me he had a sensitive tummy when he arrived and that he gets the protexin gut fix tube at worming time etc and sometimes has spells of upset tummy. If it was a bug I don’t think it would be an ongoing thing (over years)?
What’s odd is he was fine till mid-Jan then it started and other than an occasional dry day or two he’s been bad since. Nothing changed around then either.
He’s also getting food aggressive again so somethings not working.
He had full panel of bloods in November which were apparently normal, and just had annual jabs and cushings test done.
The vet suggested psyllium and said it might just be how he is.
Unfortunately I have to give soaked hay as my other one is obese (I advertised for a good doer that needed restriction - his owner said that’s what he is but he turned up looking like a hat rack so I’m trying to muddle through to spring when I’m hoping Dr Green will help)
Interesting about high fibre maybe being problematic, I’d have thought it might be the other way round. Owner has been very good with my suggestions so far but I don’t want to take over or push it. Might see if I can beg/borrow/steal a small amount of bran off someone before committing to a whole bag and finding it doesn’t work ?
PurBee
Well-Known Member
its been very mild where i am, considering this is meant to be winter. Some horses have started shedding already. Has it been mild where you are this year? Just wondering if encysted small redworm would rupture earlier from the gut wall earlier than usual springtime, due to it being a mild winter? They would cause bowel wall distress thus loose poops. They probably erupt in phases, like chickens hatching, than all of them in 1 go…potentially causing a few weeks of gut distress.
It aligns with the weight loss your seeing too?
A longterm sensitive stomach sporadic symptoms would make me wonder about parasites, and the damage they do to the gut wall.
Moxidectin is the only effective encysted red worm wormer to treat these types of worms. Fenbendazole is licensed for them too but there’s reports of the worms being more resistant to that wormer. (You likely know this just saying in case of confusion, i was once under the impression off the shelf wormers targeted the worst)
All the other wormers on the market say on the label ‘kills most species’ - but dont target the most common and most dangerous encysted small redworm. This worm does the most damage to the gut due to its burrowing nature into the gut wall.
I’d be tempted to give a very generous moxidectin dose, even if he was given one in nov/dec at ideal time to kill them.
As grazing season extends and many are out in winter, 1 time worming for encysteds is unlikely to be effective with a constantly grazing animal on domestic set-up confined to same pastures.
Youre right about gut bug unlikely if for years he’s been sensitive like this. Im not familiar with equine gut infection specifics, but know h.pylori can be a longterm one potentially causative of ulcers. Whether any others longterm exist i dont know. Most common infections clear up within days.
A fecal stool sample test could be run looking for pathogens.
But depending on worming status, id go the easiest to eliminate route first, worm for encysted, then add probiotics again and glutamine. Glutamine is fabulous for repairing damaged gut wall…studies repeatedly note this.
On/off longterm gut sensitivity would make me curious about parasites and cyclical bouts of gut wall damage, moreso than anything else.
It aligns with the weight loss your seeing too?
A longterm sensitive stomach sporadic symptoms would make me wonder about parasites, and the damage they do to the gut wall.
Moxidectin is the only effective encysted red worm wormer to treat these types of worms. Fenbendazole is licensed for them too but there’s reports of the worms being more resistant to that wormer. (You likely know this just saying in case of confusion, i was once under the impression off the shelf wormers targeted the worst)
All the other wormers on the market say on the label ‘kills most species’ - but dont target the most common and most dangerous encysted small redworm. This worm does the most damage to the gut due to its burrowing nature into the gut wall.
I’d be tempted to give a very generous moxidectin dose, even if he was given one in nov/dec at ideal time to kill them.
As grazing season extends and many are out in winter, 1 time worming for encysteds is unlikely to be effective with a constantly grazing animal on domestic set-up confined to same pastures.
Youre right about gut bug unlikely if for years he’s been sensitive like this. Im not familiar with equine gut infection specifics, but know h.pylori can be a longterm one potentially causative of ulcers. Whether any others longterm exist i dont know. Most common infections clear up within days.
A fecal stool sample test could be run looking for pathogens.
But depending on worming status, id go the easiest to eliminate route first, worm for encysted, then add probiotics again and glutamine. Glutamine is fabulous for repairing damaged gut wall…studies repeatedly note this.
On/off longterm gut sensitivity would make me curious about parasites and cyclical bouts of gut wall damage, moreso than anything else.
chaps89
Well-Known Member
Parasites is a good call, especially as she’s mentioned he always has a reaction to wormers. Probably wouldn’t have thought of that so thanks.
I’d planned to saliva test for tape and poo test next month anyway (on westgate labs advice) so it will be interesting to see what they throw up (appreciate normal poo sample doesn’t test for encysted though so will bear that in mind for worming following the testing)
I’ll go and have a Google of glutamine
I’d planned to saliva test for tape and poo test next month anyway (on westgate labs advice) so it will be interesting to see what they throw up (appreciate normal poo sample doesn’t test for encysted though so will bear that in mind for worming following the testing)
I’ll go and have a Google of glutamine
maddielove
Well-Known Member
I've always wondered if it made my mare worse, I tried the double dose for a couple of pots and things definitely didn't get better, strangely enough the quick fix syringes seem to help but just didn't seem like a long term option.
After battling with faecal water for 5 winters in a row we seem to finally have a handle on things, main thing to help was the equibiome test but she still had a couple of off days here and then which I couldn't put down to anything other than days it's rained a bit more than usual. I then started adding in a small 25ml scoop of Psyllium husk every other day and this seems to be the final piece of the puzzle! a 500g bag from amazon cost less than £10 and lasted a couple of months.
After battling with faecal water for 5 winters in a row we seem to finally have a handle on things, main thing to help was the equibiome test but she still had a couple of off days here and then which I couldn't put down to anything other than days it's rained a bit more than usual. I then started adding in a small 25ml scoop of Psyllium husk every other day and this seems to be the final piece of the puzzle! a 500g bag from amazon cost less than £10 and lasted a couple of months.
Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
Interesting post about the redworm hatching, as this would tie in with his last episode of faecal water - He was actually wormed the following week, always with moxidectin as he is allergic to straight ivermectin, it triggers a bout of COPD.
I do not know anything about his worming history prior to me buying him as a rising 8y.o. so yes - there may well be gut wall damage. I am just relieved that he is finally dry and has some respite from the daily washing.
I do not know anything about his worming history prior to me buying him as a rising 8y.o. so yes - there may well be gut wall damage. I am just relieved that he is finally dry and has some respite from the daily washing.