PSSM 2 Test Hair Test

[SpotsandBays]

Do you trust this test?

It seems an awful lot of money for something that is not peer reviewed or recognised by vets.
I feel like most horses that have this test come back with some variant on their results. (Maybe that’s because it’s only really suspects that are being tested?)
Just mulling. Would love to hear your thoughts on it?
(Edited to add that I’m referring to the hair test!!!)

 

[ycbm]

I don't trust the test and I won't until it gets wide Veterinary approval.

PSSM2 is "illness of the day" at the moment. I don't believe that problems caused by it are anywhere near as widespread as some people and some social media sites are suggesting.

I do think it is possible that a lot of horses need more vitamin E than they are getting, which can give some similar symptoms, and that the genes tested are common, resulting in horses that just need more vitamin E being diagnosed wrongly as PSSM2.

I'm now of the belief that all working horses should be supplemented with at least the RDA of vitamin E from Christmas to spring, and many all year round.
.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I don't trust the test and I won't until it gets wide Veterinary approval.

PSSM2 is "illness of the day" at the moment. I don't believe that problems caused by it are anywhere near as widespread as some people and some social media sites are suggesting.

I do think it is possible that a lot of horses need more vitamin E than they are getting, which can give some similar symptoms, and that the genes tested are common, resulting in horses that just need more vitamin E being diagnosed wrongly as PSSM2.

I'm now of the belief that all working horses should be supplemented with at least the RDA of vitamin E from Christmas to spring, and many all year round.
.

Spot on. Having spoken to a leading orthopaedic consultant about this, his comments were as above.
I was kicked out of the PSSM Facebook group for saying this and pointing out all the shockingly lame horses that need a lameness exam , not hair tests.

 

[SpotsandBays]

Spot on. Having spoken to a leading orthopaedic consultant about this, his comments were as above.
I was kicked out of the PSSM Facebook group for saying this and pointing out all the shockingly lame horses that need a lameness exam , not hair tests.

I’m in a few of the PSSM groups and I do cock my head at the many many posts going
“My horse is doing XYZ, could this be PSSM?”, when really that symptom/thing they are doing could be related to many many other issues.

 

[SpotsandBays]

I don't trust the test and I won't until it gets wide Veterinary approval.

PSSM2 is "illness of the day" at the moment. I don't believe that problems caused by it are anywhere near as widespread as some people and some social media sites are suggesting.

I do think it is possible that a lot of horses need more vitamin E than they are getting, which can give some similar symptoms, and that the genes tested are common, resulting in horses that just need more vitamin E being diagnosed wrongly as PSSM2.

I'm now of the belief that all working horses should be supplemented with at least the RDA of vitamin E from Christmas to spring, and many all year round.
.

This is how I feel. I have a Whitehawk (if you’re in the pssm groups on Facebook you’ll know the drama surrounding the whitehawks!). I had the type 1 test done because it’s inexpensive and recognised - came back n/n. I won’t be testing type 2 unless symptoms begin to show, and even then I’m not sure whether I would go down the follicle or biopsy route.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I’m in a few of the PSSM groups and I do cock my head at the many many posts going
“My horse is doing XYZ, could this be PSSM?”, when really that symptom/thing they are doing could be related to many many other issues.

When the horse, if video provided , is clearly lame and if presented to a capable vet , in vast majority of cases will have a concrete reason for the lameness.

But I guess blaming PSSM is cheaper than sending your horse for a scan!

My final straw in one group was a horse being ridden , hopping lame behind , with gushing text about how much better she is and other idiots encouraging the woman to keep going ! That's nothing short of abuse !

 

[shortstuff99]

The guy who developed the tests runs it with an iron fist, you cannot debate his findings in anyway, shape or form.

 

[paddy555]

The guy who developed the tests runs it with an iron fist, you cannot debate his findings in anyway, shape or form.

this, and so it never progresses any further into being valid test or otherwise.

 

[SEL]

I'm one of the people who tries to have a debate with Paul S about why Equiseq haven't yet been able to support their findings with muscle biopsies etc. I get that a gene can be carried without symptoms but if the horses testing positive are symptomatic (& many have been euthanised) then surely it will show up in muscle tissue. The human equivalents of p8 & K1 definitely do.

I was supportive but now I'm annoyed by the lack of science.

 

[paddy555]

I can't see any circumstances that I would do the test unless I suppose I had such a conundrum of a horse with symptoms that had been checked for most other things plus I had money to spare.

I was supportive but now I'm annoyed by the lack of science.

I agree so prove it and it will help a lot of horses or it simply cannot stand up to scrutiny but will presumably be making a lot of money for equiseq. Is this just a money thing that has now got a following of internet "groupies"


I'm sure we have a pretty large problem area with vit E deficiency myopathy that needs bringing to light a lot more.
I do wonder if people give up too soon when they detail their problem and PSSM 2 is suggested. I haven't found the natural E in a powdered form to be that effective and, on recent re reading, I see it can take a month to increase the vit E levels. Possibly people are not allowing sufficient time to check out vit e deficiency. Of course those horses may be lame or have other problems as the initial vit e deficiency has then had a knock on effect.


RT I am on some of the PSSM groups but it is a long time since I read them so please save me a bit of time, what is a "whitehawk" ?

 

[Fransurrey]

It would be quite easy to verify and publish a test of this type, so as a peer reviewed scientist myself, I find it odd that he doesn't do that, as the test would be taken up by vets all over. I can partly understand the biopsy not always matching up, as it relies on muscle cell phenotype, which will vary massively according to diet, exercise, quality of the biopsy and stain. The test, though? Is it just that he won't discuss with laymen? Ordinarily with a new technique it would be disseminated via seminars, workshops, veterinary conferences and so on. At the very least it would be an article in the Veterinary Times.

 

[shortstuff99]

I'm one of the people who tries to have a debate with Paul S about why Equiseq haven't yet been able to support their findings with muscle biopsies etc. I get that a gene can be carried without symptoms but if the horses testing positive are symptomatic (& many have been euthanised) then surely it will show up in muscle tissue. The human equivalents of p8 & K1 definitely do.

I was supportive but now I'm annoyed by the lack of science.

I did my PhD in genetics and so I get really annoyed when I see him throwing things around and trying to blind people with complicated science that doesn't mean much!

When I questioned him all he would do is just post chunks out of his manuscript. No actual debate of it.

 

[shortstuff99]

It would be quite easy to verify and publish a test of this type, so as a peer reviewed scientist myself, I find it odd that he doesn't do that, as the test would be taken up by vets all over. I can partly understand the biopsy not always matching up, as it relies on muscle cell phenotype, which will vary massively according to diet, exercise, quality of the biopsy and stain. The test, though? Is it just that he won't discuss with laymen? Ordinarily with a new technique it would be disseminated via seminars, workshops, veterinary conferences and so on. At the very least it would be an article in the Veterinary Times.

It gets weirder when there are published papers that disprove his findings but he can't publish his at all?

And he knows what he is doing as he has loads of papers in Drisophila genetics.

 

[Fransurrey]

It gets weirder when there are published papers that disprove his findings but he can't publish his at all?

And he knows what he is doing as he has loads of papers in Drisophila genetics.

Bizarre. Interesting fact: I went for a PhD which would have involved me squashing Dm testicles between slides. Before that interview I had no idea flies even HAD balls. Didn't get it and ended up studying mucus instead. Blurgh. He sounds like the owner of TB. She was like that but wouldn't engage with other scientists.

 

[BBP]

I can't see any circumstances that I would do the test unless I suppose I had such a conundrum of a horse with symptoms that had been checked for most other things plus I had money to spare.




I agree so prove it and it will help a lot of horses or it simply cannot stand up to scrutiny but will presumably be making a lot of money for equiseq. Is this just a money thing that has now got a following of internet "groupies"


I'm sure we have a pretty large problem area with vit E deficiency myopathy that needs bringing to light a lot more.
I do wonder if people give up too soon when they detail their problem and PSSM 2 is suggested. I haven't found the natural E in a powdered form to be that effective and, on recent re reading, I see it can take a month to increase the vit E levels. Possibly people are not allowing sufficient time to check out vit e deficiency. Of course those horses may be lame or have other problems as the initial vit e deficiency has then had a knock on effect.


RT I am on some of the PSSM groups but it is a long time since I read them so please save me a bit of time, what is a "whitehawk" ?

My horse is one that has suffered badly from low vitamin E levels (confirmed via blood testing, but I hadn’t identified it being a myopathy in its own right until last year). Said horse was muscularly weak, you could hoik him over really easily on a tail pull and he struggled to rise from lying down. On each occasion that this became a concern, I started him back on 10,000iu of vitamin E and within 4-5 weeks he was getting up normally again. I had his bloods tested a couple of weeks ago and even following 4 months of high levels of vitamin E supplement he still has blood serum levels that are only just within the normal range. His blood selenium levels also fall at the very bottom end of normal. So I definitely agree that vitamin E deficiency myopathy can cause real problems.

I have ranted a few times on here about Equiseq listing Px as being part of their PSSM testing. RER as a stand-alone condition has diddly squat to do with polysaccharide storage and to my knowledge, they have not identified this gene in those horses that have been biopsied and confirmed to have the centrally localised nuclei and other features typical of RER. My horse was diagnosed with RER by muscle biopsy and although I have a mild curiosity, I don’t plan to give equiseq my money to see if he has the gene that they have identified as being linked to the calcium regulation fault.

 

[ycbm]

Mine is also low side of normal vutamin E, he's on 3-6 x RDA and has been now for 2 years..

As a spotted horse with probable QH genes I'm sure the diehards would be screaming PSSM2, but he has no signs other than needing higher levels of vitamin E than normal horses.
.

 

[shortstuff99]

Bizarre. Interesting fact: I went for a PhD which would have involved me squashing Dm testicles between slides. Before that interview I had no idea flies even HAD balls. Didn't get it and ended up studying mucus instead. Blurgh. He sounds like the owner of TB. She was like that but wouldn't engage with other scientists.

I can just picture little fly balls on a slide ?

 

[Indefatigable]

Spot on. Having spoken to a leading orthopaedic consultant about this, his comments were as above.
I was kicked out of the PSSM Facebook group for saying this and pointing out all the shockingly lame horses that need a lameness exam , not hair tests.

This all day long. - do the lameness workup and only then test for PSSM. Having said that, I do feel the condition is linked to orthopaedic issues and much much more.

 

[SpotsandBays]

I can't see any circumstances that I would do the test unless I suppose I had such a conundrum of a horse with symptoms that had been checked for most other things plus I had money to spare.




I agree so prove it and it will help a lot of horses or it simply cannot stand up to scrutiny but will presumably be making a lot of money for equiseq. Is this just a money thing that has now got a following of internet "groupies"


I'm sure we have a pretty large problem area with vit E deficiency myopathy that needs bringing to light a lot more.
I do wonder if people give up too soon when they detail their problem and PSSM 2 is suggested. I haven't found the natural E in a powdered form to be that effective and, on recent re reading, I see it can take a month to increase the vit E levels. Possibly people are not allowing sufficient time to check out vit e deficiency. Of course those horses may be lame or have other problems as the initial vit e deficiency has then had a knock on effect.


RT I am on some of the PSSM groups but it is a long time since I read them so please save me a bit of time, what is a "whitehawk" ?

Whitehawk Spotted Horses - horse breeders that have had alot of PSSM 2 positive offspring (via hair follicle). There was a lot of drama online surrounding them, including posts on dodgy dealer pages

 

[paddy555]

Whitehawk Spotted Horses - horse breeders that have had alot of PSSM 2 positive offspring (via hair follicle). There was a lot of drama online surrounding them, including posts on dodgy dealer pages

thanks for that

 

[maya2008]

It needs to be studied more widely, rather than just testing symptomatic horses. You could find that perhaps only 20% of horses with a particular gene are symptomatic- and then study what causes them to become so. That would actually be useful. As it is, it can help point towards management, but that’s about it.