PSSM, any experts?

Hormonal Filly

Hormonal Filly

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Can anyone explain PSSM to me?

My gelding had a PSSM blood test a few months ago, he was out of work and the results were much higher than they should be. The vet suggested he could possibly have PSSM but when we found the arthritis in his neck we treated that.

Now Alfie has started to shake a lot in his flank area when tacking up (especially) when boxed elsewhere or in the box. He was constantly shaking/muscle tremors during camp when I was tacking up but was relaxed in himself, didn't seem stressed and performed great. I have just red this is a sign but always thought it was excitement. I have never noticed him suddenly sweating, unable to move as it suggests typing up is?
During camp I used some of my friends mix, which has a lot of molasses in so that could of caused it if he does have PSSM as they're sensitive to molasses.

I wonder if he is tying up when travelling and is why he hates going in the box? He use to be a poor doer and difficult to get weight on for the last 3 years. I now find and am confused as to why he has been in lot of work but he has fat pads on his sides, he is fed barely anything and my extremely good doer Welsh D who has been out of work for 4 months is much more 'trim' and 'fit' looking to my cob whos been in work? He is on good grazing yet seems to get fat just looking at grass these days, I am going to have to restrict him which I never have done in 5 years.

Could it all be related to PSSM? Is it something they can get as they get older? Hes just turned 10.
Thank you all!
 
catembi said:
I have just found this: http://equiseq.com/learning_center/health/polysaccharide-storage-myopathy-pssm

I had an ISH with it. Symptoms worsened with age...he was fine at 4/5. He used to bang about a lot in the lorry. Muscle biopsy can be -ve at the younger ages as there might not be enough accumulated damage to pick up on.
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Thats excellent, thank you will have a read. The vet also said his age could be a sign as he didn't show any of these signs as 5yr old. He has always gone onto a nice summer field with no issues but within the last week he has worsened and thats since hes been in his summer paddock so can only assume its related.
 
My mare has got worse as she's got older sadly, but it is common for something to trigger the first episode. Stress, change of feed, spring grass could all be triggers.

We've never had the stereotype tying up with refusal to move and sweating. She gets stiff, grumpy and would not go forward under saddle. It was regularly running blood tests for muscle enzymes that helped understand her behaviour.

Rule in / out type 1 with Animal Genetics and go from there IMO. Also ask your vet to check for insulin resistance in case it's EMS
 
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The shaking you describe is a classic symptom. I'm not an expert and dont have one with it, but know enough horses who do have it, and the second I read the flank shaking my heart sunk for you.
 
You can do a test for it.

Its recently been found in New Forests and has become a big focus point with breeding. Everyone is testing their mares and all of the stallions have had to be tested; those found to be affected are no longer licensed to breed.

That said, some of those that are affected have lived perfectly normal lives with the correct, strict management. All is not lost if your horse does have it. Just do plenty of research and manage him correctly and hopefully you will do just fine together for many years to come.
 
Thank you all for your comments and thank you @SEL for being so helpful on private message.

I have already called Animal Genetics and paid £30 for the PSSM Type 1 test, sending the hair sample off today with a 5/10 day wait and asked for the result to be emailed which they said is quicker. I am going to restrict his grazing on my dinner break today. He is also very 'sore footed' which i have red is a symptom of PSSM. He isn't looking laminitic but suddenly I find myself panicking he could easily be if not managed.

Its very funny as for the last 5 years he has grazed good grazing without a issue, never got fat and never had any fat pads. I wonder if this is more of a issue than his neck itself.
 
Always happy to help if I can. Did you have a steroid injection into the neck? It can make them more susceptible to laminitis but I would have thought you'd have had signs before now - might be worth chatting to your vet tho.

Let us know how you get on with the test. Muscle problems are becoming my mastermind subject these days!!
 
SEL said:
Always happy to help if I can. Did you have a steroid injection into the neck? It can make them more susceptible to laminitis but I would have thought you'd have had signs before now - might be worth chatting to your vet tho.

Let us know how you get on with the test. Muscle problems are becoming my mastermind subject these days!!
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Yes, but that was done coming up to 6 months ago now. I did notice the fat pads form after the steriod but the vet said it shouldn't effect him that much.

I spoke to my vet a couple of hours ago over the phone, hes such a nice chap and really spoke thoroughly. He did say the PSSM test we done before had abnormal levels even at rest so he will visit next week to take a insulin test as the fat pads, how hes been acting and the tremors all sound to similar.

My Welsh is being shod this week with the hope he can start work in a fortnight, everything crossed.
 
It does not sound like you had a PSSM test from the bloods. It sounds like you had the test for abnormal muscle enzymes in the blood. While that will result from PSSM caused muscle damage, my understanding is that it will also result from other types of muscle myopathy and other causes of muscle damage.

It's also quite possible that your horse has EMS as well as PSSM and I would be testing for both that and Cushings if he was mine.

I'd also get him onto high doses of vitamin E immediately, and add alcar if that doesn't resolve things, then try other amino acids or high oil if he is still not right.

I hope that helps, it's a very frustrating disease.
 
ycbm said:
It does not sound like you had a PSSM test from the bloods. It sounds like you had the test for abnormal muscle enzymes in the blood. While that will result from PSSM caused muscle damage, my understanding is that it will also result from other types of muscle myopathy and other causes of muscle damage.

It's also quite possible that your horse has EMS as well as PSSM and I would be testing for both that and Cushings if he was mine.

I'd also get him onto high doses of vitamin E immediately, and add alcar if that doesn't resolve things, then try other amino acids or high oil if he is still not right.

I hope that helps, it's a very frustrating disease.
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That sounds about right, he had abnormal muscle enzymes. I have sent off a test for PSSM and vet is going to take bloods for EMS, will mention cushings.

Without sounding dumb, where can I buy vitamin E? Just plain simple vitamin E powder?

I have just bought them in for a few hours and sectioned off their field. It is good grazing and I've given him a pen for now. I'm just concerned my other horse will get fat if hes grazing 3/4 of it on his own so may have to section off a area for him as well.
 
I get mine from Forage Plus - you need natural not synthetic. It's expensive! Thunderbrooks and Progressive Earth also do straight vitamin E.
 
Firstly - don’t panic! And don’t read all the doom and gloom out there. It is actually more common that people realise and a lot of issues look fairly similar.

I bought a 4yr old ISH with “shivers” which from research and his breed lines I thought was more likely EPSM or metabolically related. It was all doom and gloom out there at the time but I just took to this horse when I went to see him and bought him regardless. And what a purchase he turned out to be! He is now 13yrs old will turn his hoof to anything and has huge jumping scope. I just have to be a bit careful with his diet. After discussion with the vet they said the only way to know for sure is a muscle biopsy and as I was already embarking on managing as if he had it just to see how it went. He is on a low sugar diet (he won’t let us increase the oil or control it that much as he’s a very fussy eater) and he get a loading dose of Ty Guard (Selenium and vit E) every day. He is 17.2hh so you may get away with a normal dose daily. This stuff works miracles, we only see mild shaking flank, twitching tail and occasionally leg hitch and shake if he has a cold hosepipe on his back end, is full of a cold or has more than a week without the supplement. There has been no deterioration at all and he is out on grass 24/7 at this time of year without issue. If he had problems then we’d turnout night only. He is on Saracen re-leve as it is pretty much the only thing he’ll eat without tonnes of sugar in it. Occasionally he might put up with a bit of micronised linseed but not for long. Won’t eat chop/beet etc... or most feeds so it’s mainly the selenium and vit E that keeps him manageable.
 
cyberhorse said:
Firstly - don’t panic! And don’t read all the doom and gloom out there. It is actually more common that people realise and a lot of issues look fairly similar.

I bought a 4yr old ISH with “shivers” which from research and his breed lines I thought was more likely EPSM or metabolically related. It was all doom and gloom out there at the time but I just took to this horse when I went to see him and bought him regardless. And what a purchase he turned out to be! He is now 13yrs old will turn his hoof to anything and has huge jumping scope. I just have to be a bit careful with his diet. After discussion with the vet they said the only way to know for sure is a muscle biopsy and as I was already embarking on managing as if he had it just to see how it went. He is on a low sugar diet (he won’t let us increase the oil or control it that much as he’s a very fussy eater) and he get a loading dose of Ty Guard (Selenium and vit E) every day. He is 17.2hh so you may get away with a normal dose daily. This stuff works miracles, we only see mild shaking flank, twitching tail and occasionally leg hitch and shake if he has a cold hosepipe on his back end, is full of a cold or has more than a week without the supplement. There has been no deterioration at all and he is out on grass 24/7 at this time of year without issue. If he had problems then we’d turnout night only. He is on Saracen re-leve as it is pretty much the only thing he’ll eat without tonnes of sugar in it. Occasionally he might put up with a bit of micronised linseed but not for long. Won’t eat chop/beet etc... or most feeds so it’s mainly the selenium and vit E that keeps him manageable.
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Thank you for your long reply, very helpful!
I have been recommended saracen re-leve by another friend too, I am guessing its this one? https://www.saracenhorsefeeds.com/performance/re-leve#detailed-description

I am worried about feeding him much of anything at the moment as he is over weight with fat pads. (that could be related to EMS) I am feeding him a handful of alfa-a, 2 handfuls of micronised linseed and equlibria blanancer. Is saracen re-leve to be added to that?
 
With respect Cyberhorse shivers is not PSSM - Valberg has proved that. She also proved that vitamin E deficiency can present like a myopathy which I suspect is why many, many untested horses do so well when supplemented.

There is a genetic test for type 1 and that is a robust test.

The gene it tests for is described as incomplete dominant. That basically means they know there are other genes that trigger it to varying degrees, but they don't know what they are.

That is why I have a homozygous horse with virtually no symptoms and a heterozygous horse who is barely rideable. Last summer a heterozygous holiday livery joined the herd who was less symptomatic than my mare until he went onto grass - then he could barely move. On a bald paddock you would have just thought he was slow to warm up.

I'm not saying the OP's horse has PSSM, but you've said your own horse hasn't been tested so you don't know if yours has either.
 
SEL said:
PSSM - Valberg has proved that. She also proved that vitamin E deficiency can present like a myopathy which I suspect is why many, many untested horses do so well when supplemented.

.
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that is a very relevant point. How many of these horses have what we refer to as PSSM 2, and how many have VEDM. Vitamin e deficiency myopathy. The management is similar but the reasons may be different. There is also the question of RER.
 
We are learning all the time about muscle myopathy, aren't we? Three years ago I thought I had two with PSSM. One could only manage on high vitamin E and alcar, and with too little of either went as solid as a rock. The other I eventually realised after two years of experimentation was only vitamin E dependant, and not particularly badly at that (5k iu winter, 2k iu summer).

I'm with other people who think that there are a lot of vitamin E deficient horses around. It would be my go-to now for any horse that seems lazy, feels a bit solid, or needs a long slow warm up.
 
That would be mine - I have him on a PSSM type diet which he does well on, but have not yet supplemented with vit E. Off to find out the best source.
 
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ozpoz said:
That would be mine - I have him on a PSSM type diet which he does well on, but have not yet supplemented with vit E. Off to find out the best source.
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You can buy natural or synthetic, but synthetic contains only about half the chemical you actually need, so you have to feed twice as much. It costs half as much, so it works out about the same, so you might as well buy natural in the first place!

Oil is cheapest, from Equimins, but like many people I found it bloody awful to use, very thick and sticky, difficult to measure, went everywhere! Powder is much easier, from Forageplus or Progressive Earth.


Best advice is probably to start high and reduce to see where you need to be. I think it's pretty normal that you can feed less when there is a lot of light around for the grass to create it, in high summer, a bit more in the shoulder months and a lot more in the depths of winter.



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I feed powdered synthetic and it most definitely does work out significantly cheaper than oil. 3gms a day is equal to 2000iu I fed 6gms a day to mine which meant 500gms lasted me 80ish days for £17.99. My current pony has no issues but gets 3gms a day over winter when grazing is restricted. It costs me £17.99 for the whole winter and I've still got some left!
 
Leo Walker said:
I feed powdered synthetic and it most definitely does work out significantly cheaper than oil. 3gms a day is equal to 2000iu I fed 6gms a day to mine which meant 500gms lasted me 80ish days for £17.99. My current pony has no issues but gets 3gms a day over winter when grazing is restricted. It costs me £17.99 for the whole winter and I've still got some left!
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You are feeding roughly half the active ingredient, though. If 2000 iu of synthetic works, then so will 1000iu of natural.

That's why your synthetic powder seems cheaper than oil. For natural vitamin E oil is usually the cheapest.


Here's the full story for anyone who wants to read it:


https://forageplus.co.uk/natural-versus-synthetic-vitamin-e-horses/

..
 
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mule said:
So there may well be a lot of horses that we think are just lazy but actually have a medical condition. It's such a shame they can't tell us things.
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Yes, I'm convinced of it. And it also, from my experience, starts to show when they really start to work. And when is that? Five or six. And what do we call it? The feisty fives and the stupid sixes. And then they just give in and live with it, maybe?

I am not suggesting that all feisty five year olds have a vitamin E deficiency by any means, but if my current four year old becomes a feisty five he will definitely be going on the stuff.


.
 
Another point. Vitamin E powder is often called oil. It's dried out oil, powdered. If it comes in a sachet or a tub, it's a powder. It's only what we would call an oil if it's in a bottle.
 
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From the article itself:

At ForagePlus we believe both synthetic and natural vitamin E is equally valid to use. We have highlighted the differences between the two and in particular the differences with their bioavailability. If there is a strong clinical reason to load high levels of vitamin E into the blood stream as quickly as possible then a specialist product such as Nano-E has benefit, otherwise the same levels can be achieved more cost effectively by increasing the quantity of either synthetic or natural vitamin E being fed.
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It doesnt seem cheaper, it is. It cost me £17.99 for a whole winter as opposed to £100 for oil. Its ridculous to suggest that people need to spend £100 on oil when they have no idea if its an actual problem or not.

Doing the sums just to double check PEs synthetic powder is roughly 5p per 1000iu Oil is 11p per 1000iu dropping to 10p per 1000iu if you spend £100 for a litre. So its slightly cheaper to use the synthetic powder unless you buy oil in bulk. I couldnt be bothered looking at powder in bulk as it would take me decades to use it.

The oil which is notoriously difficult to use has already very nearly stopped one member of this board using it, which would have been a huge shame as its worked incredibly well for her horse. Theres also wastage with oil that you dont get with powder.

At the end of the day use what you want, but a sensible starting place if you think you have an issue is a 500gm bag of synthetic vitamin e. Thats enough to see if it helps, and you can always tweak it after that.
 
Leo Walker said:
From the article itself:



It doesnt seem cheaper, it is. It cost me £17.99 for a whole winter as opposed to £100 for oil. Its ridculous to suggest that people need to spend £100 on oil when they have no idea if its an actual problem or not.

Doing the sums just to double check PEs synthetic powder is roughly 5p per 1000iu Oil is 11p per 1000iu dropping to 10p per 1000iu if you spend £100 for a litre. So its slightly cheaper to use the synthetic powder unless you buy oil in bulk. I couldnt be bothered looking at powder in bulk as it would take me decades to use it.

The oil which is notoriously difficult to use has already very nearly stopped one member of this board using it, which would have been a huge shame as its worked incredibly well for her horse. Theres also wastage with oil that you dont get with powder.

At the end of the day use what you want, but a sensible starting place if you think you have an issue is a 500gm bag of synthetic vitamin e. Thats enough to see if it helps, and you can always tweak it after that.
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I haven't read the costings however if your horse is actually on the ground it is so bad you go for the best quality and for me that was equimins. Cost didn't come into it. Quality did. (FP natural would have done just as well) There is little savings in buying oil in bulk. I do as it is less deliveries.

Oil is not notoriously difficult to use. I don't get any wastage whatsover with oil. If I put powder in the feed an they dropped a mouthful on the ground I may do. I use oil on 5 horses once daily. It takes me less than 60 seconds to weigh out the oil for all of them. It then takes me about another minute to walk round and hand out the oil. With oil you need to get organised. Simples!

A sensible starting place, in the VERY humble opinion of someone who had a horse on the ground it was so bad is not cheap synthetic vit E. It is the very best quality you can buy. It is doesn't produce results then you have less chance of blaming the oil. If you use synthetic and there is little change you will always be wondering.
 
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