PSSM, any experts?

[Hormonal Filly]

pick up bottle of oil, open lid, pick up mayonaise bottle, open lid. Time perhaps 20 seconds. Pour from one bottle to the other. Perhaps a minute. Put lids back on bottles, 20 seconds. Walk back to cupboard where the bottle is kept, 20 seconds. You must have a very busy life!!

Thanks all - I have ordered some due to be delivered tomorrow!

Paddy555 are you saying if I have a mayonnaise bottle or a bottle with a squirty top its easier? How do you measure it out?
To add, I rode last night and noticed his muscles were really hard and tense, specially his neck? Rock solid.. I have red some other forum posts and it seems quite a few PSSM horses have the same. I rode for barely 15 minutes as he lacked energy, struggled to hold a canter and felt so down and depressed. When I got back to the stable he stood having his tack off with his ears pinned back, so unhappy.
Interesting about the new forest pony link someone posted, as he has unknown breeding but his passport is from new forest pony and his breeder breeds new forests usually although he tested negative for PSSM 1 he could have PSSM 2 but part of me also suspects cushings as he does have a thick coat.
Will let you all know how we get on.

 

[Ellietotz]

Just to confirm, as going to buy the vitamin E from Equamins..
I am working it out that 250ml Equimins Vitamin E oil = £27.95 inc delivery
10g needed a day for 10,000iu (correct?) as 1g = 1,000iu = 25 days worth = £1.18 a day?

Yes, sounds right. I get the 500ml bottle which is 50 days at 10,000iu. Can't bring myself to spending £100 on the bigger one!

I pour mine into a big ketchup squeezy bottle first. Then I have a little 250ml squeezy ketchup bottle so I can top it up easily by squeezing it out from the bigger bottle. This sounds pointless but it makes sense, pouring it straight in isn't always easy as it doesn't stop as soon as you tip it up, it's too thick! Then I shove a big syringe in the hole of the small squeezy bottle, tip it upside down (the syringe takes up the hole so no space for it to run out), draw it out (you do have to apply a fair bit of pressure to syringe it out because it's so gloopy) then put on feed! I hated it at first but you get used to it!

Just to add, I syringe from the little bottle because it's not as heavy and easier to balance when it's upside down on the end of the syringe!

These are the syringes I use:

https://www.evetdrug.co.uk/medical-...MInv_59qyO4gIVCZzVCh0oSQ5CEAQYByABEgLJp_D_BwE

 

[paddy555]

Thanks all - I have ordered some due to be delivered tomorrow!

Paddy555 are you saying if I have a mayonnaise bottle or a bottle with a squirty top its easier? How do you measure it out?
To add, I rode last night and noticed his muscles were really hard and tense, specially his neck? Rock solid.. I have red some other forum posts and it seems quite a few PSSM horses have the same. I rode for barely 15 minutes as he lacked energy, struggled to hold a canter and felt so down and depressed. When I got back to the stable he stood having his tack off with his ears pinned back, so unhappy.
Interesting about the new forest pony link someone posted, as he has unknown breeding but his passport is from new forest pony and his breeder breeds new forests usually although he tested negative for PSSM 1 he could have PSSM 2 but part of me also suspects cushings as he does have a thick coat.
Will let you all know how we get on.

 

[paddy555]

Thanks all - I have ordered some due to be delivered tomorrow!

Paddy555 are you saying if I have a mayonnaise bottle or a bottle with a squirty top its easier? How do you measure it out?
To add, I rode last night and noticed his muscles were really hard and tense, specially his neck? Rock solid.. I have red some other forum posts and it seems quite a few PSSM horses have the same. I rode for barely 15 minutes as he lacked energy, struggled to hold a canter and felt so down and depressed. When I got back to the stable he stood having his tack off with his ears pinned back, so unhappy.
Interesting about the new forest pony link someone posted, as he has unknown breeding but his passport is from new forest pony and his breeder breeds new forests usually although he tested negative for PSSM 1 he could have PSSM 2 but part of me also suspects cushings as he does have a thick coat.
Will let you all know how we get on.

the point of getting it into a mayonaise bottle with a squirty top is that you can control the oil. You will find when it arrives it is very thick and gloopy and there is little chance of being able to control it with any degree of accuracy. Once it is the squirty bottle then you can control it. You can either squirt a drop at a time onto bread and weigh out your 10 g on gram scales if you want to do it that way or you can syringe it out as described above.

The big thing with equimins oil is that you have to get it under control.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Just an update to my post #38 in which I thought my 8yo was responding to increased vit E supplementation. I may have been a bit previous. The chiro vet came out yesterday to see her, and found her to be sore from front to back in a manner consistent with her having had a splat of a fall in the field. She has had a load of adjustments from her poll backwards, and will be seen again in 6 weeks. Meanwhile I will carry on with the 10000iu of Vit E and the Protexin acid ease until she’s seen again, to keep those bases covered. It could yet be ulcers too, not a huge surprise as she’s been recovering from poor foot balance for a year.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

We are 3 days into feeding Equamins vitamin E now. It is a bit of a hassle. I have a syringe and have put a marker on the correct amount.. but still find it rather goey so will put it into a ketchup bottle once we use whats left.

I know a bit early to tell, but he definitely seems a bit happier in himself. I rode him on the evening after he his first dose, I noticed straight away when tacking him up he stood looking out the box with his ears forward rather than standing in the corner, and found he felt much 'looser' to ride and more forward going with me only having to ask verbally without kicking. Hes been running to call within the last few days and putting his head into his head collar and interestingly before he was on vitamin E he wasn't interested, even ran away from me once.. nothing else has changed that I am aware of.

Today coming in he was much more forward going and even had a little trot behind me - usually I'm dragging him in and out. In his stable hes been eating his hay but not moving or doing much, even if I am next door.. but the last couple of days hes been biting my other horse over the partition if I am in there not giving him attention and even nibbled the vet this morning being very inquisitive and jealous I can assume.

Going to ride tomorrow (5 days into feeding Vit E) and see how we get on. Its to early to tell really, those reason above may just be luck but my vet said it was a great idea to try.

 

[DD]

I feed powdered synthetic and it most definitely does work out significantly cheaper than oil. 3gms a day is equal to 2000iu I fed 6gms a day to mine which meant 500gms lasted me 80ish days for £17.99. My current pony has no issues but gets 3gms a day over winter when grazing is restricted. It costs me £17.99 for the whole winter and I've still got some left!

can you supply the name of this product and where to buy it from please ?

 

[ycbm]

can you supply the name of this product and where to buy it from please ?

I'm not sure whether you have noticed that on this thread and another one we have conclusively established that it is NOT cheaper to feed synthetic vitamin E. The cheapest way to feed vitamin E, per unit, by far, is Equimins oil.

Synthetic vitamin E powder is sold on eBay from a number of suppliers with selenium in. This is not advised if feeding extra quantities of vitamin E as the selenium is very toxic even in small overdoses.

Synthetic vitamin E alone is sold by a number of suppliers, but definitely by Forageplus and Progressive Earth, both online only.

Do be aware that it is half the cost of natural vitamin E but you need to feed TWICE as much because it is only half as effective. So you might as well buy natural in the first place unless you are just testing to start with and want the smallest initial outlay.

.

 

[SEL]

@Aimeetess that sounds really promising. Let's hope you've found the answer ☺

 

[ozpoz]

Since I read this and put mine on it he is not needing a slow and gentle warm up before he strides out and moves properly. Today, for the first time, I just got on and hacked out. No tension. I'm delighted. Thank you all!

 

[SEL]

Since I read this and put mine on it he is not needing a slow and gentle warm up before he strides out and moves properly. Today, for the first time, I just got on and hacked out. No tension. I'm delighted. Thank you all!

That's great to hear. Miracle stuff 😊

 

[Ellietotz]

Really good news @Aimeetess and @ozpoz !

Isn't it amazing how much difference is made from feeding it. I still notice different things about my mare now she is on it! I think I would put any horse on it now, even on just a maintenance dose.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Really good news @Aimeetess and @ozpoz !

Isn't it amazing how much difference is made from feeding it. I still notice different things about my mare now she is on it! I think I would put any horse on it now, even on just a maintenance dose.

What is the maintenance dose? I'm going to start giving my other some at a low dose, think he could really benefit from it.

 

[Leo Walker]

I'm not sure whether you have noticed that on this thread and another one we have conclusively established that it is NOT cheaper to feed synthetic vitamin E. The cheapest way to feed vitamin E, per unit, by far, is Equimins oil.

Synthetic vitamin E powder is sold on eBay from a number of suppliers with selenium in. This is not advised if feeding extra quantities of vitamin E as the selenium is very toxic even in small overdoses.

Synthetic vitamin E alone is sold by a number of suppliers, but definitely by Forageplus and Progressive Earth, both online only.

Do be aware that it is half the cost of natural vitamin E but you need to feed TWICE as much because it is only half as effective. So you might as well buy natural in the first place unless you are just testing to start with and want the smallest initial outlay.

.

It is cheaper, even based on double amounts. I've provided the sums on a previous thread so you can see for yourself I do not understand why you keep insisting its not.

I get it from Progressive Earth and based the calculations on the one they sell

 

[ycbm]

It is cheaper, even based on double amounts. I've provided the sums on a previous thread so you can see for yourself I do not understand why you keep insisting its not.

I get it from Progressive Earth and based the calculations on the one they sell

God almighty Leo, I know you are in pain and having a shit time losing your sight, and I feel for you mightily, but why must you keep arguing about this when your argument is plain straightforward incorrect? You are confusing people who don't understand about feeding vitamin E and annoying those of us who do. You work with statistics, you know better than this. Please stop.

On current prices, both synthetic and natural powder are about 13.5-15p per bio available 1000iu and Equimins oil is 10p per bio available 1000iu

These are the sums, which I gave on another thread on May 4th. Prices from Forageplus. Progressive Earth currently £17 a pack, not £19, but still works out much more expensive (13.6p) per unit than oil (10p) without including postage which is zero on oil and charged extra on powder.



Quote:

The sums are easy:


A bottle of oil is £100 and contains one thousand 1000iu units, one per mil, 10p each.

A 500g packet of synthetic is £19 and is equivalent in bioavailability to natural at £38. Natural contains 1000 iu per 2g, 250 doses in a pack, over 15p per dose.


These sums may vary from day to day with offers, but, in general, it is much cheaper to feed vitamin E by buying a bottle of Equimins oil.

Some people find it messy and fiddly and prefer to pay for the powder. Others get on fine with it.


End quote.
..

 

[paddy555]

What is the maintenance dose? I'm going to start giving my other some at a low dose, think he could really benefit from it.

I am not sure there is an answer to that, I give my cushings horse 5000iu, my 25yo arab who is a bit stiff(arthritis type stiffness) 5000iu and one of my others who I imagine could easily be veering towards PSSM2 5000iu. I give my 4yo 3000iu and he has had that since 7 months old.

Leaving aside what we refer to as PSSM2 horses I believe their could well be a large deficiency of vit E in many horses, especially those on restricted grass (lami, tracks etc) who are on the same management systems for years on the same ground and same ownership. I am working on the basis with the 4yo that he has always had low amounts so hopefully I can always keep it low. There is vit E in many supplements but I wonder about the quality of it. ie. we are using a natural quality product eg equimins/FP/PE for what we call PSSM2 but what is the quality and effectiveness of vit e in supplements.

 

[ycbm]

What is the maintenance dose? I'm going to start giving my other some at a low dose, think he could really benefit from it.

I've seen it quoted at 2,000 iu a day for a working horse, to 5000iu a day in hard work. But they are only guesses, and the answer is 'whatever works for your horse'. For the cob I sold it was between 2 in summer and 5 in winter.

 

[Xanthoria]

Hope I'm not repeating info already given, but my horse weighs 1500# / 680 kg.

In creating his custom supplement with Horsetech I had them add 10,000IU natural vitamin e powder to the recipe based on on the commonly given opinion that "PSSM/shivers horses need 10kIU"

He's done well on 7500 IU too, but not so well with none.

Does the common wisdom of 10k IU mean 10k IU of natural or synthetic? And what sized hose is that based on - a "standard" 1,100# / 500 kg horse?

 

[ycbm]

Natural. For synthetic, you double it.

It's based on a finger stuck in the air, as far as I know.

 

[Xanthoria]

Well I guess if he's doing alright on it I'll keep it at 10k natural... (cost is $189 / £146 for a 35# / 15.8 kg bucket which works out to about $2 / £1.55 per day but includes all the vit E, and a full daily ration of ll his other vits and mins, custom balanced for our hay)

 

[ycbm]

That's a good price.

 

[Ellietotz]

I've seen it quoted at 2,000 iu a day for a working horse, to 5000iu a day in hard work. But they are only guesses, and the answer is 'whatever works for your horse'. For the cob I sold it was between 2 in summer and 5 in winter.

This is what I had read too. 2000iu for maintenance I believe.

In reference to the double amount thing, I worked out how much it is daily and it is incredibly expensive, it just looks cheap from the outset, very deceiving!
I worked out that, based on the horse getting 10,000iu, a 500g bag of synthetic vitamin e from Forage Plus at £18.99 would cost £1.51 a day as you would need to feed 40g/20,000iu of which only 10,000iu would be absorbed. One bag would last 12.5 days!
Strangely, it works out the same daily cost on their natural powder! 20g/10,000iu all of which is absorbed would make a 500g bag last 25 days and at £37.98 a bag, it still works out at the same daily rate.

Equimins is by far the cheapest though.

 

[DD]

I'm not sure whether you have noticed that on this thread and another one we have conclusively established that it is NOT cheaper to feed synthetic vitamin E. The cheapest way to feed vitamin E, per unit, by far, is Equimins oil.

Synthetic vitamin E powder is sold on eBay from a number of suppliers with selenium in. This is not advised if feeding extra quantities of vitamin E as the selenium is very toxic even in small overdoses.

Synthetic vitamin E alone is sold by a number of suppliers, but definitely by Forageplus and Progressive Earth, both online only.

Do be aware that it is half the cost of natural vitamin E but you need to feed TWICE as much because it is only half as effective. So you might as well buy natural in the first place unless you are just testing to start with and want the smallest initial outlay.

.

Thank you

 

[Hormonal Filly]

To follow up, start of last week before adding Vitamin A when i rode in the arena I came out after 15 minutes nearly in tears, Alfie couldn't hold a canter more than 3 strides even with me kicking him and felt was so backwards. He felt stiff and unhappy, constantly fighting the contact. He felt late 20's not 10.. I even said to my other half, part of me thinks I need to think about that decision.

We went into area last night to see if there was any difference, to tack him up he actually escaped out his stable before I'd finished (was hiding in the corner prior to feeding Vit A) and walking to the arena he was alert and happy, even trotting on the spot part way.
He stood perfectly at the block, we warmed up and then done some walk and trot, he was very forward and held a lovely long and low outline moving like elastic from behind. We tried a canter.. to my amazement he cantered off to my voice, he was happy to keep cantering until I asked for trot. We even done a lap and a 20m circle in canter with no bother at all, and walk to canter. I was so happy, had a tear in my eye after 20 minutes. It was so nice to ride my horse I've owned 5 years and finally he feels so comfortable.

Its completely clear now he is much much happier since being fed the Vit A.. the difference is unbelievable, more noticeable than when he had his neck injected. Does this mean hes probably type 2 positive? Or could he have PPID still?

A lady at the yard previously had PSSM positive horse, she was constantly tying up and nothing could control it to the point she was PTS at 8. This lady said if Alfie had any type of PSSM he'd be properly tying up and it would be clearly noticeable..

 

[ycbm]

I think you mean vitamin E not A?

PSSM is a spectrum disease, from asymptomatic to full on tying up. Your horse may have it, or may simply be a horse who needs more vitamin E.

Great news on the improvement 😊

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I think you mean vitamin E not A?

PSSM is a spectrum disease, from asymptomatic to full on tying up. Your horse may have it, or may simply be a horse who needs more vitamin E.

Great news on the improvement 😊

LOL yes!
Oops.. that’s what you get for being naughty typing quick at work! Vitamin E not A!

 

[paddy555]

This is what I had read too. 2000iu for maintenance I believe.

I think you would also have to take into account how it is kept. Lots of grass in summer or virtually yarded and stabled most of the year. Also how hard it works. I would be giving more to a horse hunting hard or working several times a week than say a horse that poggled once around the block on a Sunday.

To follow up, start of last week before adding Vitamin A when i rode in the arena I came out after 15 minutes nearly in tears, Alfie couldn't hold a canter more than 3 strides even with me kicking him and felt was so backwards. He felt stiff and unhappy, constantly fighting the contact. He felt late 20's not 10.. I even said to my other half, part of me thinks I need to think about that decision.

We went into area last night to see if there was any difference, to tack him up he actually escaped out his stable before I'd finished (was hiding in the corner prior to feeding Vit A) and walking to the arena he was alert and happy, even trotting on the spot part way.
He stood perfectly at the block, we warmed up and then done some walk and trot, he was very forward and held a lovely long and low outline moving like elastic from behind. We tried a canter.. to my amazement he cantered off to my voice, he was happy to keep cantering until I asked for trot. We even done a lap and a 20m circle in canter with no bother at all, and walk to canter. I was so happy, had a tear in my eye after 20 minutes. It was so nice to ride my horse I've owned 5 years and finally he feels so comfortable.

Its completely clear now he is much much happier since being fed the Vit A.. the difference is unbelievable, more noticeable than when he had his neck injected. Does this mean hes probably type 2 positive? Or could he have PPID still?

A lady at the yard previously had PSSM positive horse, she was constantly tying up and nothing could control it to the point she was PTS at 8. This lady said if Alfie had any type of PSSM he'd be properly tying up and it would be clearly noticeable..

re your last 2 paras I don't think you can say he is possibly positive for PSSM2 but maybe that he possibly has a vit e deficiency which is affecting his muscles and when it is supplemented there is improvement. There is a condition known as vit e deficient myopathy and the link below provides a very brief summary. If you want a much more detailed analysis google "vit e deficient myopathy" and look especially at the work of msu (michigan state uni)
I would also see improvement in management may not go amiss for these horses. For example keeping warm/ exercise sheets, keeping moving, considering if horse has a problem standing for long distances travelling. Possibly these are not horses that can do 24/7 unrugged in all weathers. Those type of things. Some may be resolved simply by vit E supplementation, some may need further care. That is what I have found so far anyway.
They don't all tie up, some are bad, some not so bad. I take it the ref to PPID meant to say PSSM. (If not these are 2 very different things and vit E supplementation will not cure a PPID horse just help it along it's way)

vitamin-e-deficient-myopathy

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Is it possible since feeding the vitamin E he could suddenly gain weight?

He was starting to look ok, but seems even on minimal (no!) grass he’s still on the fat side. My other (a welsh!!) is starting to look on the thin side so feeding him extra.

Today we rode and he got tired and sweaty very fast. Part of me thinks it’s his neck affecting him, but he’s never gained weight on nothing before and owned him 5 years. He use to always be on the slim side..

 

[ycbm]

This study on calves says yes if they are vitamin E deficient:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2071706/



My experience of PSSM horses is that they are typically spooky and nervy. If vitamin E modified that, then it's entirely possible that a horse could put on weight after being given it. I would also say that relaxed muscles look much more bulky than tight ones, which might play a part. And possibly that if he has stopped storing sugar in his muscles, he might actually be digesting the stuff?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Bumping this back up. This original post was about my coloured cob who unfortunately went to Horsey Heaven the end of last year but due to his neck getting to the point his quality of life was poor.

I have another horse, a Welsh cob. whos just turned 8. Hes been in and out of the vets for lameness and performance issues for a year and a half now. He was lame on his LH and now hes lame on his RH. Hes had his hind nerves cut, stifles and hocks injected with no improvement. I've had a second opinion, we are going to 'try' SI but he doesn't seem sore in his SI so its basically a guessing game.
The thing that made me suspect PSSM was he started to look poor (he isn't a good doer, never has been!) so I moved him into the other paddock with more grass. He has more grass but looks more unhappy and grumpy, since being in his new paddock. I haven't seen him eating much, he just stands there feeling sorry for himself. His muscle tone also looks worse than ever before, yet I've been doing groundwork with him.

He is a very nervy horse too and switches daily. For instance, yesterday was happy to see me and relaxed. Today he was terrified of everything, the headcollar, his own haynet in his stable.. very odd.
I have noticed recently he wees a lot and it is quite a thick colour rather than clear. He bunny hops in canter, currently can't even canter left and switches lameness and he rests legs constantly switching between which hind legs which I've now red is a symptom.

Hes extremely lazy in summer, always has been, yet is full of himself in Winter. When he was on box rest in October for 3 months for a tendon, he did start quivering all over a few times for a unknown reason which stopped within a hour and this happened 3 times.

I've mentioned to my vet the possibility of PSSM, or EPSM.. does it sound possible? Any other ideas? Basically clutching at straws here. Hes a lovely horse, its horrible to see him how he is.