PSSM Diet

E

emfen1305

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 December 2015
Messages
1,046
Visit site
Having read a lot recently around this and googled the symptoms, I think my horse could potentially be a candidate due to his breed and how he acts. I wanted some advice on his diet to see if there are any absolute no no's and what I could add, if anything, to see if he improves. For context he is a 9yo cob x appy, good doer, was diagnosed with gastric ulcers and then hock arthritis after not wanting go forward. Can sometimes look tucked up and always quite stiff over his hind end. He looks better now due to the injections but just want to rule out anything else!

He is currently in light work - 5 days a week hacking, schooling and 1 day lunging on a v large circle. We are just moving up a gear in terms of speed but a lot of time in walk.

He is fed Readymash Fibre, Topspec Lite balancer, Suppleaze Gold for the arthritis, Protexin for his gut and Micronised Linseed also for his stomach. He doesn't need any more weight on him but is there anything I shouldn't be feeding? I understand there are different types of PSSM so is it just better to get him tested?

Many thanks :)
 
there are lots of earlier threads on here about PSSM. You can test for type 1 £30, hair sample. Type 2 is more difficult ie muscle biopsy
Many just try diet for type 2 to give them some idea if it is type 2.
Whatever the test results there is no treatment you just have to find the right management for that horse.
lots of info on FB "pssm forum"

for diet I feed
alfalfa pellets,
copra
micro linseed
salt
a balancer
alcar
high dose vit E, around 10000iu per day of natural vit E. That is the most important ingredient in the diet.

I always use an exercise sheet, warm up and down slowly and I over rug. For mine warmth is vital plus daily exercise.
I am pretty sure mine is type 2 and he responded very favourably to this diet and management.
 
paddy555 said:
there are lots of earlier threads on here about PSSM. You can test for type 1 £30, hair sample. Type 2 is more difficult ie muscle biopsy
Many just try diet for type 2 to give them some idea if it is type 2.
Whatever the test results there is no treatment you just have to find the right management for that horse.
lots of info on FB "pssm forum"

for diet I feed
alfalfa pellets,
copra
micro linseed
salt
a balancer
alcar
high dose vit E, around 10000iu per day of natural vit E. That is the most important ingredient in the diet.

I always use an exercise sheet, warm up and down slowly and I over rug. For mine warmth is vital plus daily exercise.
I am pretty sure mine is type 2 and he responded very favourably to this diet and management.
Click to expand...

I have joined the FB group so will spend some time scrolling through there and through the other threads on here :)

I think the only thing he is missing then is the Vitamin E and Alcar - he has a salt lick but I could always add a tablespoon in his feed. Which Vitamin E do you buy? I read the Equimins one is good. What made you think yours has PSSM? Thanks!
 
I have 2 with PSSM type 1 diagnosed by the genetic test. Its cheap and easy to do (Animal Genetics UK site) and definitely worth it to know what you are dealing with.

My mare is currently not in a good position with the disease and its interesting that you say you had the hocks in your horse injected. The vets want to do that with her, but I'm currently after a second opinion because I'm concerned about steroid injections into a horse with a known metabolic problem. I only got my gelding tested because he was a high risk breed - finding out he was positive was a bit of a shock because he has no obvious symptoms.

In terms of diet.
I use kwik beet and copra for both horses as they are low sugar / starch, together with some oat chaff. I did use alfalfa but my mare has pink skin and it made her very sensitive to the sun.
Oil for the mare - about 250ml, but I might be increasing that given our current problems.
salt - decent tablespoon each day.
vitamin E - I use the forage plus powdered natural vitamin E as I found Equimins oil a bit hard to deal with, especially if the yard had to feed on my behalf. Mare is on 10000iU, gelding 2000iU
Magnesium. A decent tablespoon for each horse.
Forage plus winter balancer (although about to change for the mare as it appears linseed upsets her tummy)

Alcar did nothing for either of my horses. I do add l-carnitine, but I'm yet to be convinced that does anything either.

My mare is draft x Appy, so as soon as I read the PSSM description and the type of horses it affected I had a horrible feeling that was what she has. I'm glad I tested otherwise I think we would still be going round the loop of lameness exams / ulcers that weren't clearing up / behaviour issues etc. Given what you've said about your horse I would spend the £30 and see whether they are carrying the gene.
 
emfen1305 said:
I have joined the FB group so will spend some time scrolling through there and through the other threads on here :)

I think the only thing he is missing then is the Vitamin E and Alcar - he has a salt lick but I could always add a tablespoon in his feed. Which Vitamin E do you buy? I read the Equimins one is good. What made you think yours has PSSM? Thanks!
Click to expand...

I use the equimins one. He was never right muscle wise, worked far below his capabilities, was very spooky at nothing. He tied up and went down with a rider on and then went down twice afterwards in the field. His muscles were like rock. Blood tests showed that AST and CK levels were not going down as expected. My vet had no idea and had to ring the vet schools. They suspected PSSM as the place to start. I had already googled high AST, CK, RER etc etc. I knew PSSM was one cause of it but always thought that was the quarter horse disease. How wrong I was! Management for RER had failed and he wasn't responding anyway. 2 days into vit E and I started wondering, 4 days and he was a different horse. Alcar introduced later (do one thing at once) produced even further improved performance. Removed alcar and he slipped back a bit, reintroduced it and improvement again.
I don't think they get enough salt from a lick. I give 2 x 20ml scoops of salt per day plus a 20ml scoop of bicarb (sodium hydrogen carbonate)
 
SEL said:
I have 2 with PSSM type 1 diagnosed by the genetic test. Its cheap and easy to do (Animal Genetics UK site) and definitely worth it to know what you are dealing with.

My mare is currently not in a good position with the disease and its interesting that you say you had the hocks in your horse injected. The vets want to do that with her, but I'm currently after a second opinion because I'm concerned about steroid injections into a horse with a known metabolic problem. I only got my gelding tested because he was a high risk breed - finding out he was positive was a bit of a shock because he has no obvious symptoms.

In terms of diet.
I use kwik beet and copra for both horses as they are low sugar / starch, together with some oat chaff. I did use alfalfa but my mare has pink skin and it made her very sensitive to the sun.
Oil for the mare - about 250ml, but I might be increasing that given our current problems.
salt - decent tablespoon each day.
vitamin E - I use the forage plus powdered natural vitamin E as I found Equimins oil a bit hard to deal with, especially if the yard had to feed on my behalf. Mare is on 10000iU, gelding 2000iU
Magnesium. A decent tablespoon for each horse.
Forage plus winter balancer (although about to change for the mare as it appears linseed upsets her tummy)

Alcar did nothing for either of my horses. I do add l-carnitine, but I'm yet to be convinced that does anything either.

My mare is draft x Appy, so as soon as I read the PSSM description and the type of horses it affected I had a horrible feeling that was what she has. I'm glad I tested otherwise I think we would still be going round the loop of lameness exams / ulcers that weren't clearing up / behaviour issues etc. Given what you've said about your horse I would spend the £30 and see whether they are carrying the gene.
Click to expand...

I did look at the test and I think I will just get it done! He is definitely a candidate, hard bum muscles, camped under, never looks quite right behind. It was something I mentioned to the vet but we were already going down the bone scan route and found the arthritis so it got forgotten about! Is it quite easy to do? I read on the website it was 30-40 hairs (it will have to be from his tail as he is hogged) - is this what you did?

I'm sorry to hear about your mare. It seems the symptoms can range from quite serious tying up to just looking not right and I would say I am at the not right part which makes it harder to convince a vet! I did go with the steroid injections but we have absolutely no grass at the moment and the haylage isn't overly rich so I took my chance with the laminitis. I don't know about your grazing but my vet recommended now to be the best time to do it as we are coming into the lighter nights so could really get on with his rehab but the grass is still low in sugar due to not growing.

It seems like the only thing I am missing is Vitamin E really and maybe some more salt. I think I will get some Vitamin E at the weekend and just start him on it while I'm waiting for the test results. Did you go through your vet for the test or have you done this off your own back? Many thanks!
 
paddy555 said:
I use the equimins one. He was never right muscle wise, worked far below his capabilities, was very spooky at nothing. He tied up and went down with a rider on and then went down twice afterwards in the field. His muscles were like rock. Blood tests showed that AST and CK levels were not going down as expected. My vet had no idea and had to ring the vet schools. They suspected PSSM as the place to start. I had already googled high AST, CK, RER etc etc. I knew PSSM was one cause of it but always thought that was the quarter horse disease. How wrong I was! Management for RER had failed and he wasn't responding anyway. 2 days into vit E and I started wondering, 4 days and he was a different horse. Alcar introduced later (do one thing at once) produced even further improved performance. Removed alcar and he slipped back a bit, reintroduced it and improvement again.
I don't think they get enough salt from a lick. I give 2 x 20ml scoops of salt per day plus a 20ml scoop of bicarb (sodium hydrogen carbonate)
Click to expand...

The spooky at nothing sounds very much like my boy, I just assumed it was his nature and that could still be the case but he has been so stoic throughout all of his issues that it wouldnt surprise me if he was in a lot of pain! He has never gone down or tied up badly but he has always had sunken flanks, again i thought this was a conformation thing and the vets never showed any concern. Since really concentrating on only feeding non-molassed feed and no carrots etc this has improved slightly. I will give more salt and Vitamin E and do the test to see what I am dealing with. The hard part is convincing the vet who seems to think that I want him to be poorly, I just want to make sure he is 100% before pushing him too hard!
 
Mine is a coloured ISH (more cobby than ISH though!) who was normal for about the first week I had him and then got very spooky out riding. He hated cars coming past him although was fine when they drove up behind him. Had rock hard bum muscles, was very strange about tacking up etc. He tied up badly last January a couple of times and it took a fair while for come to go back to normal. Another thing I found was that he always felt cold backed when I first got on and it would take him about 100 yards before he relaxed if that makes sense.

I changed his diet and put him on alfalfa pellets, alfa a oil, copra, speedibeet, micronised linseed, salt, 10,000 iU Vit E oil, Pro Hoof and Alcar and he improved. However it was only when I removed the Pro Hoof because I'd run out that he felt normal when I first got on. I didn't click at all so then put him on a Forage Plus Winter Balancer in December and then within a few days, he was back to being very tense in his back. Took him off it, back to normal. So for whatever reason, those kind of balancers make him symptomatic. Since coming off the balancers, he is the safest horse to hack out in the world and doesn't spook at anything. I rode this morning in the pouring rain and he didn't do a thing when cars came past him through the puddles. If you'd seen his reactions to cars and puddles last year, I doubt anyone would have ever wanted to ride him!! One day I was leading him out in hand, a car went through a puddle, he panicked, leapt out of the way and somersaulted over a barbed wire fence cutting himself quite badly. It was horrible. He could be lethal. So for him, the spooking is when he isn't right. If he starts spooking now, I will worry. Clearly he was fine for the first week I had him because I didn't start him on Pro Hoof till about the second week.

I have been so strict about his management this year though - exercise sheet EVERY day. Turn out every day and ridden pretty much every day. If he has a day off, the next day he will walk to the village and that's it. He gets seen by a myofascial release person 3 times a year, saddle fitter fairly often as he does change shape. I clearly can't feed him a hoof supplement which won't be entirely helpful when he has his shoes off for his summer holiday at the end of this month but at least he's having a shoeing break for 3 months and out in the field.

Once you've got the diet right, its like second nature but does seem like a faff to start with.
 
I sometimes think I'd have an easier time convincing people I'm a super model than convincing my vet that PSSM is at the root of my mare's problems! She never obviously ties up which doesn't 'help'.

She is also super spooky when she's struggling. Her pet trait is to run backwards at high speed - doesn't matter what's behind her. I also describe her as cold backed and went through months when she was awful to mount, even from a block that's high enough for me to get on without putting any weight in the saddle.

Pulling the hairs is fairly easy (although both mine have manes). A pair of tweezers and a zip up freezer bag plus good light so you can make sure you've got a root on each hair. I was pretty sure I sent them quite a lot of dandruff (and possibly even a few lice!), but the tests were back in under 10 days so they must have had enough.

I did this off my own back rather than via the vet and sometimes I wonder whether that's half the problem in getting my vets on board with the fact that there is a muscular issue.
 
Forgot to say that my horse also had very bad thoroughpins last year which have completely gone. Whether this is because he is more comfortable in his body or not is debatable but I'd put my bottom dollar on it. He's far more relaxed in himself and is also a lot more open emotionally which may sound strange but he was very quietly defensive last year. He didn't do anything nasty, he just didn't give anything of himself in his character. Now he is very chatty and quietly whinnies at me in the field and stable when I appear, likes being groomed and having a cuddle and he appears very content within himself.
 
Carolineb what you said about the personality and the spooking has really struck a chord, my boy is exactly the same, not quite to the extent of the spooking you talked about but he will almost look for things to spook at and is constantly on edge, chomps at the bit like no tomorrow despite having everything checked, i'm fairly convinced its a stress thing. He isn't nasty by any means but he does seem very tense and we all joke about this worried look that he has constantly but now maybe there really is something underlying. I will definitely be getting the test and getting some Vitamin E tomorrow. Sorry to be ignorant but will the packet tell me how much to feed? I've seen about iu per day, is it easy to work out? He is a 14.2 cob x appy, weighs between 500-550kg. Thanks!
 
You might struggle to buy a pure vitamin E supplement off the shelf - they are usually combined with selenium. Selenium is toxic if you feed too much & if you fed the mixed product at the rate to get 10000iU of vit E, then you're at dangerous selenium levels.

Those of us who prefer powdered vitamin E to the equimins oil tend to use forage plus or progressive earth. Both mail order but both speedy. It's flippin expensive so make sure you feed it in something your horse wants to eat. Seeing a bucket emptied on the floor in a mare-ish strop did not make me happy this morning!

Also check for sugars in anything you buy - they sneak in everywhere!
 
SEL said:
You might struggle to buy a pure vitamin E supplement off the shelf - they are usually combined with selenium. Selenium is toxic if you feed too much & if you fed the mixed product at the rate to get 10000iU of vit E, then you're at dangerous selenium levels.

Those of us who prefer powdered vitamin E to the equimins oil tend to use forage plus or progressive earth. Both mail order but both speedy. It's flippin expensive so make sure you feed it in something your horse wants to eat. Seeing a bucket emptied on the floor in a mare-ish strop did not make me happy this morning!

Also check for sugars in anything you buy - they sneak in everywhere!
Click to expand...

The ones with selenium are the only ones i've seen so i'll avoid those! Is this the one? https://forageplus.co.uk/product/natural-vitamin-e-horse/? How long does it last? Sorry for all of the questions! He does have treats for his stretches but i might buy fibre cubes instead as I know the treats are laden with sugar!
 
SEL said:
You might struggle to buy a pure vitamin E supplement off the shelf - they are usually combined with selenium. Selenium is toxic if you feed too much & if you fed the mixed product at the rate to get 10000iU of vit E, then you're at dangerous selenium levels.

Those of us who prefer powdered vitamin E to the equimins oil tend to use forage plus or progressive earth. Both mail order but both speedy. It's flippin expensive so make sure you feed it in something your horse wants to eat. Seeing a bucket emptied on the floor in a mare-ish strop did not make me happy this morning!

Also check for sugars in anything you buy - they sneak in everywhere!
Click to expand...

The ones with selenium are the only ones i've seen so i'll avoid those! Is this the one? https://forageplus.co.uk/product/natural-vitamin-e-horse/? How long does it last? Sorry for all of the questions! He does have treats for his stretches but i might buy fibre cubes instead as I know the treats are laden with sugar!
 
emfen1305 said:
Carolineb what you said about the personality and the spooking has really struck a chord, my boy is exactly the same, not quite to the extent of the spooking you talked about but he will almost look for things to spook at and is constantly on edge, chomps at the bit like no tomorrow despite having everything checked, i'm fairly convinced its a stress thing. He isn't nasty by any means but he does seem very tense and we all joke about this worried look that he has constantly but now maybe there really is something underlying. I will definitely be getting the test and getting some Vitamin E tomorrow. Sorry to be ignorant but will the packet tell me how much to feed? I've seen about iu per day, is it easy to work out? He is a 14.2 cob x appy, weighs between 500-550kg. Thanks!
Click to expand...

I would bite the bullet and buy the Equimins Vit E Oil. Yes its expensive but if you are only feeding one horse then it lasts for a long time. Through trial and error and thanks to a top tip from HHO, I decant it into a clean squeezy ketchup bottle which makes it so much easier to dispense. I don't actually measure mine but just count a steady 1,2 3 which from experience is about 10,000 IU. Other people suggest using a syringe to use it. My horse is quite fussy but has never refused his current diet and I would imagine the oil doesn't taste of much.
 
SEL said:
You might struggle to buy a pure vitamin E supplement off the shelf - they are usually combined with selenium. Selenium is toxic if you feed too much & if you fed the mixed product at the rate to get 10000iU of vit E, then you're at dangerous selenium levels.

Those of us who prefer powdered vitamin E to the equimins oil tend to use forage plus or progressive earth. Both mail order but both speedy. It's flippin expensive so make sure you feed it in something your horse wants to eat. Seeing a bucket emptied on the floor in a mare-ish strop did not make me happy this morning!

Also check for sugars in anything you buy - they sneak in everywhere!
Click to expand...

Tell me about it... Tartines dinner costs about 10€ per day, and she is on hunger strike at the moment, it nearly always ends up on the floor at the moment >:(
 
carolineb said:
I would bite the bullet and buy the Equimins Vit E Oil. Yes its expensive but if you are only feeding one horse then it lasts for a long time. Through trial and error and thanks to a top tip from HHO, I decant it into a clean squeezy ketchup bottle which makes it so much easier to dispense. I don't actually measure mine but just count a steady 1,2 3 which from experience is about 10,000 IU. Other people suggest using a syringe to use it. My horse is quite fussy but has never refused his current diet and I would imagine the oil doesn't taste of much.
Click to expand...

He's fairly fussy but he does love his mash so I could try and sneak it in there. Do you split between two feeds? He is fed in the morning for me so have to leave his breakfast soaking over night and i am always suspicious of how well things work if they've been left in mash for over 12 hours!
 
emfen1305 said:
He's fairly fussy but he does love his mash so I could try and sneak it in there. Do you split between two feeds? He is fed in the morning for me so have to leave his breakfast soaking over night and i am always suspicious of how well things work if they've been left in mash for over 12 hours!
Click to expand...

If you are feeding dry powders then baby food containers (amazon) are your friend. I mix up a week's worth of drugs in a pot and stir it in just before feed time. I can then leave them for the yard to mix in when I'm away. Mine are both on just one feed at the moment.

I've never found vitamin E a problem to feed (oil or powder) and it actually smells quite nice to me as well so I suspect that's why they are ok with it. Now magnesium is a whole different matter! Plus the white powder gets everywhere and i look like I've been snorting it.

If you go for the forage plus powder then a bag will probably last a couple of months depending on how much you feed. I've got 2 on it and one at 10000iU so it feels like it goes in a flash right now. Equimins oil is cheaper but definitely get the ketchup squeezy bottle thing sorted first otherwise the stuff gets everywhere.

https://forageplus.co.uk/product/natural-vitamin-e-horse/
 
emfen1305 said:
He's fairly fussy but he does love his mash so I could try and sneak it in there. Do you split between two feeds? He is fed in the morning for me so have to leave his breakfast soaking over night and i am always suspicious of how well things work if they've been left in mash for over 12 hours!
Click to expand...

Mine has his with his breakfast. It clearly doesn't taste remotely offensive because he is very clear about whether something tastes revolting or not. Copra is amazing at disguising the taste of stuff though.

I also know that feeling of despair as your horse won't eat the VERY expensive supplements you have so thoughtfully provided for him and you think they might have eaten some of their food but it is clear they have basically spat on it and walked off in disgust. I have been known to shout "eat your s*dding food you ungrateful b*gger, do you realise how much it cost? Do you realise that I'm just trying to help and make you better?" then stumble off in floods of tears and go and sit in the feed room crying like a small child. I don't imagine I'm the only one...
 
mine gets the equimins using the ketchup bottle method. I know approx what 8000iu looks like by now and spread it between am and pm. I don't put it in feed as it is too expensive to waste. The equimins one is £19 pm for 8000u per day. Mine gets another 2000iu from his supplement. The FP one is more expensive. I squeeze mine onto a slice of bread, the horse loves it and gobbles it up. All my horses get vit E (even the non PSSM ones). I think it is something missed out of horse feed. There is no vit E in grass Oct to Mar and very little in hay. That means a horse is getting very very little for half the year. The equimins oil doesn't taste of anything.
 
SEL said:
If you are feeding dry powders then baby food containers (amazon) are your friend. I mix up a week's worth of drugs in a pot and stir it in just before feed time. I can then leave them for the yard to mix in when I'm away. Mine are both on just one feed at the moment.

I've never found vitamin E a problem to feed (oil or powder) and it actually smells quite nice to me as well so I suspect that's why they are ok with it. Now magnesium is a whole different matter! Plus the white powder gets everywhere and i look like I've been snorting it.

If you go for the forage plus powder then a bag will probably last a couple of months depending on how much you feed. I've got 2 on it and one at 10000iU so it feels like it goes in a flash right now. Equimins oil is cheaper but definitely get the ketchup squeezy bottle thing sorted first otherwise the stuff gets everywhere.

https://forageplus.co.uk/product/natural-vitamin-e-horse/
Click to expand...

Oh that's a good idea, I don't know why i never thought about it! I'll definitely do that with the supplements he's on now! Haha yes i felt like that when i fed him Equishure, it was like a cloud of white smoke! Do you think it's worth just getting him tested first before making all the changes? I don't want to spend £90 on the Vitamin E oil for him not to have it (though i suspect he does..)
 
carolineb said:
Mine has his with his breakfast. It clearly doesn't taste remotely offensive because he is very clear about whether something tastes revolting or not. Copra is amazing at disguising the taste of stuff though.

I also know that feeling of despair as your horse won't eat the VERY expensive supplements you have so thoughtfully provided for him and you think they might have eaten some of their food but it is clear they have basically spat on it and walked off in disgust. I have been known to shout "eat your s*dding food you ungrateful b*gger, do you realise how much it cost? Do you realise that I'm just trying to help and make you better?" then stumble off in floods of tears and go and sit in the feed room crying like a small child. I don't imagine I'm the only one...
Click to expand...

Haha no definitely not the only one! My horse has a tick when eating so will fling his head around and often stamp his foot in the bucket - we don't know why he does it, i'm currently trying him on a sweet itch supplement that helped last year and i stupidly took him off it over winter. Anyway last night he went to put his foot in the bucket and I practically rugby tackled him out of way as mash just disappears into the shavings! I then proceeded to hand feed him every last scrap whilst the other liveries look on in amusement...
 
emfen1305 said:
Do you think it's worth just getting him tested first before making all the changes? I don't want to spend £90 on the Vitamin E oil for him not to have it (though i suspect he does..)
Click to expand...

I would do both. Vitamin E is a great anti oxidant and there are horses that have got a lot better with the addition of it into their diet who dont have PSSM.
 
scats said:
I had a nightmare trying to find something my mare would eat that seemed to have any positive effect on her. What is currently working for us is fibre force and Saracen shape up Balancer and added salt.
Click to expand...

Type 1? Given I'm having no luck right now I'm always looking at what people feed!
 
I have two. My QHx tests negative for one, but has a brilliant response to alcar, selenium and vitamin E. The other hasn't been tested but has had a great response to the same diet. However, he isn't doing as well right now and I am wondering if he's getting worse as he gets older :(

He's had a few stiff days lately, and this thread has prompted me to double his vitamin E tomorrow. I have been able to drop it back to a normal dose, but something is going on so I will start with that.

The first horse was horribly spooky too and still seems afraid of life and constantly seeking reassurance. Not much stamina, either. The second has been uncharacteristically looking for things to spook at for about three weeks. Another one I knew of was also a fretful horse, ridiculously concerned about the noise of rain on a roof.
 
Please could anyone tell me how long after introducing Vitamin E they have seen a difference in their horse? (I mean how long does it take to see a difference :) ).Thanks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top