PSSM...help please

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peaceandquiet1

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can anyone help me as it has been suggested my pony may have psm as well as possibly other problems, I am not familiar with it so would really like some advice please... thank you x
 
I will do a search. My pony has been not right for some time with various symptoms which started with her bucking under saddle. She has been seen by various professionals and has been found to have fibrous muscles from her ears to her tail. Someone suggested PSSM as a possibility and I am just trying to find out more
 
Mostly management, diet, supplement recommendations....can't exercise her as she is lame....had a strange episode today where she appeared to be unable to walk properly but vet didn't think laminitis but didn't know what else so on box rest and danilon at the mo
 
Type 1 is sadly my specialist subject as I have 2 horses with it. You can test cheaply and easily for it by sending a sample of mane or tail hair to Animal Genetics (EU not US site) without vet involvement which is definitely worth doing.

If your horse has recently had an odd episode then the vet needs to pull a blood sample and test CK and AST levels. Depending on what they are will drive next steps. Absolutely a low sugar / starch diet with added vitamin E - but if those muscle enzyme tests are very elevated then your horse may need pain relief and muscle relaxant.

PM me if you need to.
 
SEL thank you also DadDad...she has certainly been odd off and on since Spring and yesterday she couldn't walk properly but vet felt not laminitic, her muscles all over her body are tight and her behaviour under saddle has been difficult.
 
SEL - you're so lovely

Winter can be a hard time for pssm horses - a downward spiral can easily take hold in the autumn and then it's a real struggle to get them feeling right again through winter. I've had so many vet checks done on mine over the years to rule out anything other than the pssm, because there have been times when he's been so bad with it and just struggles to move.

I went on a get super fit for autumn campaign with him in September and October last year to try and have a decent winter, and I'm pleased to say that that seems to have worked.

What's your feed and management routine for yours at the moment?
 
Sorry DabDab not DadDad...:( if you mean mine, she is currently only eating hay (late cut) and lives in a hard stand with a shelter. However she escaped on Wed and had several hours of frosty grass :(. Her legs were filling on Wed night and in the am she was unable/unwilling to move. i though laminitis and called vet. Who did not really agree but did not know what else. Her left hind was oddly swinging out and she looked like she might fall.....shes only 10 and a pba show pony
 
DabDab is right - winter is horrible for PSSM horses. The last 2 winters mine has been off work and this year has been hit and miss (box rest for a foot abscess being a nightmare).

Peace&quiet (great user name!) - did your vets pull any bloods for the most recent problem which may or may not be laminitis? If they haven't can you get them out today / early next week and demand they test CK and AST levels? You may have to stamp your feet and / or cry if they are difficult. If your poor horse has tied up then box rest won't help and UK vets are not particularly up to speed on PSSM

Any idea what your horse is crossed with? I know a full bred Arab that used to tie up and her owner follows the PSSM1 feeding regime (low sugar and starch and high oil with lots of exercise) and hasn't had any issues for a few years now.
 
Just want to sympathise. I managed to get mine to tie up on New Year's Eve for the first time ever. I think I got the selenium wrong, and to inconsistent work due to the weather. I've added 50% to his vitamin E and he's back on form now.

OP I have one type two and have just sold one type two. Fire away with questions.
 
SEL said:
DabDab is right - winter is horrible for PSSM horses. The last 2 winters mine has been off work and this year has been hit and miss (box rest for a foot abscess being a nightmare).

Peace&quiet (great user name!) - did your vets pull any bloods for the most recent problem which may or may not be laminitis? If they haven't can you get them out today / early next week and demand they test CK and AST levels? You may have to stamp your feet and / or cry if they are difficult. If your poor horse has tied up then box rest won't help and UK vets are not particularly up to speed on PSSM

Any idea what your horse is crossed with? I know a full bred Arab that used to tie up and her owner follows the PSSM1 feeding regime (low sugar and starch and high oil with lots of exercise) and hasn't had any issues for a few years now.
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Lol I can only dream of peace and quiet haha...She is by a part bred arab and out of a part Arab mare so 46% Arab with some possible native in there...grandsire on dams side an Anglo. Spoke to vets today and asked about bloods. Apparently they should have been done at the time....missed the boat! She is much better today and she is out of the stable as vet agreed if not laminitis better moving about and she isn't wobbling about.
 
ycbm said:
Just want to sympathise. I managed to get mine to tie up on New Year's Eve for the first time ever. I think I got the selenium wrong, and to inconsistent work due to the weather. I've added 50% to his vitamin E and he's back on form now.

OP I have one type two and have just sold one type two. Fire away with questions.
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Thank you! Diet...pink mash (small amount) hay (late cut) and have ordered saracen shape up balancer and also their nano E ....any thoughts? management...she lives out in a hardstand with shelter. Kicks stable walls. Will kick shelter and throw herself against the walls at times...its such a long complicated story and in a way i am almost glad yesterday happened as it has kind of brought things to a head
 
peaceandquiet1 said:
Lol I can only dream of peace and quiet haha...She is by a part bred arab and out of a part Arab mare so 46% Arab with some possible native in there...grandsire on dams side an Anglo. Spoke to vets today and asked about bloods. Apparently they should have been done at the time....missed the boat! She is much better today and she is out of the stable as vet agreed if not laminitis better moving about and she isn't wobbling about.
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Well the Arab would likely be a type 2 (broadly anything that isn't type 1, although the US scientists are trying to narrow that down). YCMB can definitely help there. The bit of native could well have given a type 1 gene, so for £30 I'd have a look at the Animal Genetics site and get a hair test done.

For my mare the Shape up balancer would be too high in sugar and starch - especially if she's on the rebound from being ill. The usual advice is keep the NSC below 10% (a lot of us have to soak hay), but one of mine is much better at the lower end of that. Type 1 usually have to introduce oil, but I wouldn't advise that until you know whether or not she has it - otherwise you risk insulin resistance.

Vitamin E is magic stuff - pity its so expensive! For recovery from a tie-up I go in all guns blazing and give 10000iU a day. My horses eat better than I do!

As regards the blood tests. I will take my head and bang it against the nearest brick wall.....
- yes, they should have done them at the time. BUT
- doing them now will show you what muscle damage happened at the time (AST) and how the muscles are doing now (CK). If your horse has CK levels of under 500 then personally I would think all is good and start exercising. If those CK levels stretch into the 1000s or worse then your horse has a fair way to go in terms of recovery.

saying that, it sounds like your horse is looking better and if you take your time and introduce exercise slowly plus introduce the vitamin E then you're on the right track.
 
Quite it would have been better to do bloods at the time, but it would still show up now! Have the vets done/suggested any diagnostics for this or do they just seem to have decided on it because they don't know what else? Has the horse had any bloods pulled previously?
 
No she has never had bloods. I have been advised to scope her for ulcers, she has been seen by two equine vets including a basic lameness work up, she has been seen by a chiropractor, two saddle fitters, 2 trainers and a physio.....the ulcer thing is on hold while I try to figure out what might have caused them, if she even has them...she is a good weight just now but definitely has laminitic changes in her feet which adds to the problem. She had a bout of laminitis about 4 years ago but her feet still grow much faster than her stablemate who is also pba. So the low sugar low starch thing is essential in general as probably ems lurking too. No other tests been suggested as i feel my suggestion of PSSM has not been taken completely seriously
 
Surely there is little point trying to work out what caused the ulcers you don't even know whether she has or not? Why not scope and take bloods and see if either give you a starting point?
 
What i mean is I think I need to find out what is causing the pain which in turn may have caused ulcers. As not much point in treating ulcers if they will just come back as the cause has not been dealt with but I take your point
 
Yes I get that, but until you start unfolding the situation you probably aren't going to find out because the ulcer pain will make it harder to know where to look, certainly not every one does fine out what caused the ulcers. and well if there aren't any ulcers you know you need to look harder elsewhere to work out where the symptoms are coming from.
 
peaceandquiet1 said:
No she has never had bloods. I have been advised to scope her for ulcers, she has been seen by two equine vets including a basic lameness work up, she has been seen by a chiropractor, two saddle fitters, 2 trainers and a physio.....the ulcer thing is on hold while I try to figure out what might have caused them, if she even has them...she is a good weight just now but definitely has laminitic changes in her feet which adds to the problem. She had a bout of laminitis about 4 years ago but her feet still grow much faster than her stablemate who is also pba. So the low sugar low starch thing is essential in general as probably ems lurking too. No other tests been suggested as i feel my suggestion of PSSM has not been taken completely seriously
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The pain which is causing her to kick walls and throw herself into walls will cause the ulcers. The pain is due to muscle spasm and can readily be mistaken, as it was in one of mine, for colic. It's a well known symptom 'false colic'.

I'm sure type II is more than one disease, as I had two with it and they were very different from each other. One ties up, the other goes floppy. One gets false colic, the other doesn't. And a few other things.

But still both are controlled on the same treatment. Large quantities of vitamin E, much higher in mid winter than in summer, and 1g acetyl l carnetine per 45kg bodyweight, and a half dose of selenium.
 
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ycbm I feel frustrated, as I have been describing this behaviour to my vets since it started, and they have all said they had no idea why she was doing it....
 
peaceandquiet1 said:
ycbm I feel frustrated, as I have been describing this behaviour to my vets since it started, and they have all said they had no idea why she was doing it....
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Yes, that is common. They don't know enough about the disease. Treat the symptoms with the diet, it is harmless.

Start with 5,000 iu of NATURAL vitamin E, if that does nothing in a week, double it, if that does nothing in another will week, add alcar. If that does nothing, you're in trouble. If it works you may be able to reduce the vitamin E right down by summer, but in a never less than 2000 iu a day.

And make sure your forage and land are not low in selenium, and supplement that too if they are.

DO NOT use vitamin E with added selenium to give the big dose of vitamin E, or supplement selenium if you are not low, it's very poisonous.
 
ycbm I have ordered the Nano E which I believe is natural and no added selenium. Thank you very much for the info. I am really hoping she responds, but i do have the ? ulcers, ? laminitic issues and the mild bone spavin to consider also so poor pony ....
 
peaceandquiet1 said:
ycbm I have ordered the Nano E which I believe is natural and no added selenium. Thank you very much for the info. I am really hoping she responds, but i do have the ? ulcers, ? laminitic issues and the mild bone spavin to consider also so poor pony ....
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I'dcancel that order if you can. Equimins vitamin E oil is half the price and four times as strong.

You will need to start on 20 mi of that and double to 40 ml if that's not enough.
 
ycbm said:
The pain which is causing her to kick walls and throw herself into walls will cause the ulcers. The pain is due to muscle spasm and can readily be mistaken, as it was in one of mine, for colic. It's a well known symptom 'false colic'.

.
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mine spent a week in horse hospital with this "false colic" and no one thought to mention PSSM. It was only when my horse went down with a rider on and tied up badly that I took matters into my own hands and sorted things out without the vet.

I am not sure what you are doing about rugs but warmth is vital. Mine has a 450g rug on, has an exercise sheet for riding and even in summer is rugged.
I am so surprised that if muscles could be implicated no bloods have been run. I didn't run bloods on mine after he tied up as it was pretty obvious. I left him 6 weeks with only gently hand walking and expected his AST and CK to be normal. Only took a test to see what was normal for him. CK over 2000 certainly wasn't! Left another month and CK still well elevated. I asked the vet why CK didn't go down, they didn't know and rang vet hospitals to find out. By the time they had come back and suggested PSSM I had googled high CK, studied PSSM extensively and he was already on the diet and starting to make progress. Sadly I haven't found vets and PSSM go together well.

It is not too late to run a blood test now. Your choice not your vets. I would think it absolutely vital. If the CK and AST are normal you may not waste time going down the wrong path but if they are not (and I would guess from what you are saying they may well not be) you may be on the right track. If you run bloods ask for a copy of the actual results not just the vet's interpretation.

I use the equimins vit e oil. It is £19 a month for 8000iu per day and is the most cost effective of the quality oils. The important thing is we know the equimins one works. I have not read that good reports on the nano so if you can cancel as suggested it may be beneficial. I would start on 10000iu per day (split between 2 doses) and do nothing else. I would expect results in days. We started noticing mine was a bit nicer after only a couple of days, after a week we had an answer. This was our first progress for several years.

You commented on living on hard standing and a shelter, possible laminitis and frozen grass. I would query if the living conditions are too hard for the horse, especially in view of it's possible problem? I have a laminitic pony (not pssm) and she is booted every time it is cold and kept off grass. This makes a tremendous difference. It keeps her feet warmer and enables her to walk soundly. Whatever your vet says are you sure your pony does not have laminitis if she had it previously? (even in conjunction with PSSM) Just a thought.

My PSSM horse also has what I suspect are hind gut ulcers. He was very spooky to ride and it was questionable if he was in discomfort producing the poor behaviour. We gave him equishure and within days a great difference. He is now on equishure permanently and the spooking (and his pain) has reduced by 90%.

There is a very good PSSM forum on FB. Mostly Americans as they are so far ahead of us. That was my first stop.

the other thing I would do if the vet is out to run bloods is to run an ACTH test.
 
Thank you for the detailed reply. I too am confused as to why no pro has mentioned PSSM. I have told them all repeatedly that she has a sore back and obviously tight muscles over her hindquarters. Now you come to mention it, when all this kicked off it was March last year and she had been clipped.....she is unclipped and rugged in a medium weight and has not been stabled mainly because she kicks the walls more when she is stabled. I am certain that she is not having an acute laminitis episode. The vet who saw her is an equine vet and she checked for pulses and used hoof testers and her view was that she was not convinced that laminitis was the cause. She could barely walk yesterday and today she is walking around quite freely. She has only had two half sachets of danilon. i am more comfortable with my ability to deal with laminitis but the PSSM thing is new. I gather though that there is some similarity in the management, low starch/sugar etc etc
 
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